Is Pes 09 Too Easy?

[Hunter]

And that's precisely my point.. both Robinho and Messi have Skill and Pace.

Thierry Henry and Leo Messi have Skill and Pace.

Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messo both have Skill and Pace.

Does this mean they should be Identical?????? Of course not!!

In Real Life Robinho uses more tricks and flicks than Messi, including Step Overs. Whereas on the other hand, Messi keeps it simple with his Dribbling, he just Cuts the Ball, never uses Step Overs, and is more Explosive than Robinho.

This DIFFERENCES are not reflected on PES09.

How do you want these differences to be reflected ? Do you want the likes of Robinho and Cristiano Ronaldo to automatically do tricks as soon as they get the ball ? The differences individually from Konami are great in fairness, it's one of the only things they've managed to get right after all these next-gen years. Differences in size, resulting in differences in strength. I can assure you it is much easier to brush Robinho off the then say Cristiano Ronaldo.

The skill differences such as tricks and whatnot should not be created by Konami, they should be created by the individual controlling each player. No one wants these players to perform the tricks by themselves, we as players have to perform the tricks to add flare to each game. The better players can perform the PES tricks a lot more fluently and quickly, therefore showing subtle differences between players. Something that is represented a lot better than in FIFA. No, I'm not unecessarily having a dig at FIFA09 since I've just bought it, and also believe it to be a better game than PES2009. It's just the truth.

 

[Amateur]

How do you want these differences to be reflected ? Do you want the likes of Robinho and Cristiano Ronaldo to automatically do tricks as soon as they get the ball ? The differences individually from Konami are great in fairness, it's one of the only things they've managed to get right after all these next-gen years. Differences in size, resulting in differences in strength. I can assure you it is much easier to brush Robinho off the then say Cristiano Ronaldo.

The skill differences such as tricks and whatnot should not be created by Konami, they should be created by the individual controlling each player. No one wants these players to perform the tricks by themselves, we as players have to perform the tricks to add flare to each game. The better players can perform the PES tricks a lot more fluently and quickly, therefore showing subtle differences between players. Something that is represented a lot better than in FIFA. No, I'm not unecessarily having a dig at FIFA09 since I've just bought it, and also believe it to be a better game than PES2009. It's just the truth.

It's not the truth.. it's just your opinion. Which in my opinion is Very far from fact or truth.

The differences from Konami are plain shit. They where good back in the PS2 days... but well out of date today.

Size doesn't haves that much to do with BALANCE or Strength. Look at Arshavin, or Pele, or George Best, or Leo Messi, or Tevez. All short players, not particularly muscular, and yet they somehow manage to out-power bigger players.

Has anyone even mentioned "players doing tricks by themselves" ???

As far as I'm concerned, you're the only person who has mentioned that.

How do I want these differences to be reflected ?

I have said that plenty of times, and I don't feel like repeating myself again... but obviously the differences should be reflected by implementing New Stats and New Animations into the game.

Some Animations are better for small spaces, we should have New Animations that work better in small spaces. And we should have a Stat for each of those animations or tricks.

And so on. We have players who are great in small spaces, we have players who are great Inside the penalty area, we have players who are great in central areas, we have others whom are better in the flanks, we have others that are better at high speeds, we have players who need to use their pace in order to maintain possession, etc, etc..

All those differences are not reflected in PES.

Because a "Dribbling Accuracy" and "Dribbling Speed" Stat cannot do that. Konami needs to cope with the times, it's time they implement a host of new animations, a host of new Stats, and a whole new facet of substance to the gameplay.

That's what I want and expect as a customer. And my patience just ran out with Konami, I'm definitely not buying another failure like PES09.

But if you think PES09 haves sufficient differences between individuals.. that's your opinion. The only thing I can say is that I respectfully disagree, I think PES09 is very one-dimensional and lacks plenty of differences between individuals.

And haves poor movements and passing, and gameplay. Which has resulted in many fans opting for FIFA instead. And a significant drop in sales.

PES6 and PES5 also lack a lot of differences between individuals... But at least those games are addictive and feel like Real Football. Passing was much better and fluid, and the off-the-ball movement seemed to be better.

 

[shaun7]

^Although I agree with you for saying it needs more stats and better animations and more individual difference, I can't agree that pes 09 is a failure. At least it's 10* better than 08. I like pes 09, though it feels out of date compared to modern next gen games.
Even Fifa feels out of date because when you play it and admit, you realize that there are games with far better gameplay and things to do.
Both games feels a bit out of date to be honest.
They both can do much better on ps3 and 360.

 

[Amateur]

^Although I agree with you for saying it needs more stats and better animations and more individual difference, I can't agree that pes 09 is a failure. At least it's 10* better than 08. I like pes 09, though it feels out of date compared to modern next gen games.
Even Fifa feels out of date because when you play it and admit, you realize that there are games with far better gameplay and things to do.
Both games feels a bit out of date to be honest.
They both can do much better on ps3 and 360.

Definitely, both PES and FIFA are well out of date, anyone who thinks differently doesn't have a clue.

PES09 is 10* better than 08... is that a good thing??

To be perfectly honest, I'm extremely disappointed with how Football Sims are progressing. Good business for the Companies, but a raw deal for the Customers.

I'm not expecting anything different from PES 2010, just another failure. But I certainly hope that I'm proved wrong, perhaps the New Engine will come hand-in-hand with a host of new Stats and Animations, and Substance.

 

[lesserlights]

No he doesn't.

On the game, they are very similar. Messi can finish, and Robinho can finish equally as well.

I know because they are both in my master league team, and have been for a number of seasons.

Until the last update robinho could only finish from good positions. messi and eto'o can finish from anywhere and almost never miss the target. On master league players get better. online they stay the same.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

It's good to see you making more sense.. Now your getting it. And I don't mean that in a bad way.

It's just that I'm pretty sure that a lot of fans who currently play PES09 non-stop.. will eventually get bored, and then they will realize Why so many former fans have opted for FIFA, or are just pissed with the lack of effort.

It just took them more time to realize that. It happens.. in my case, that "bubble" burst after playing PES6 for the 2nd year in a row.

In my opinion, everything is down to LACK OF STATS. Their Foundations are out of date and need to be upgraded.

With New STATS we would have more Differences between Individuals, and the more Differences we have the better the Team Chemistry of every Team.

Which is something that all the PES versions lack, there's barely any Team Chemistry, there's no difference between equally good but different individuals.

But Konami has shown reluctance in upgrading the Foundations of their game. They are still using the same old Stats and Special Abilities they used in PES5, or maybe even since PES3.

The game was good enough 4 years ago, but not anymore. Bottom Line is that the game has not grown along with its customers.. and that IF the Foundations remain the same, the Gameplay will pretty much remain the same at its core.

I think both Konami and EA Sports are eluding that FACT.. they simply refuse to give us a real "evolution" so early on. And adding countless of New Modes such as "BAL" and "10 vs 10" seems like a good strategy for covering that FACT. A good way of making even more profit with the same trick.

I have already made up my mind that if Konami cannot manage to implement some much needed NEW STATS into the game.. I will not buy PES 2010.

Because if the Stats remain unchanged, the Gameplay will pretty much remain unchanged, at its core. And as a result the same Old flaws remain.. It just isn't worth the wait, nor the ca$h.

For how many years have they been using the same set of Stats and Special Abilities?? Is it more than 5 years?? Did PES3 used the same Stats ?

As I said... I needed some time in playing ML to see if the opinions I expressed would actually stick or not. I've now finished my third season, and I can say that in a lot of ways I was very wrong. For one thing, it may have seemed too easy when I was in division two, but even after bolstering my squad in the off-season, I ended up battling for fourth in the league (on Top PLayer). Darren Bent was injured off and on quite regularly, and I was glad to see this was harsher than in previous years. Also, I have had some really brilliant moments in the game over the last two seasons, including losing the div 1 cup to Tottenham in the 80th minute, and then hitting the post to almost tie it in the final minutes... Heart breaking, but we'll get them next year.

Don't get me wrong. I think there is still a problem with this year's version which I identified in my first post... which is that players with god-level attributes at dribbling and speed are too effective. This, I think has nothing to do with the skills, attributes, or animations in the game, but rather with the mechanics. I'm not one who belives a new engine is the answer either. It's about the choices developers make about the gameplay, and having a new engine with other poor decisions made is not the answer. I can't see how adding more animations and moves coudl be the answer either, because you would still have the 90 degree turn that is too effective. I can see how adding signature moves and animations would be nice, but it seems like just icing on the cake, and I think that the core gameplay is more important by far. Also, I think the kinds of fixes needed would be to remove the 90 degree turn move (sounds like they have done this for 2010 btw), reduce the speed of the top players by having a short term stamina stat (i.e. so they can't run forever at top speed). Everything else, to me, is a bonus. For example, better goalkeeper gloves isn't going to change the way the game plays, and neither is adding new stats for things like stepovers and roulettes. If you added that to the game we already have, would it really change the way you play??? :erm:

BOTTOM LINE: Fix the core, then add the extras.​

 

[HH]

Will adding tendencies to the game make it better? Tendencies to help with individual stats. For example, how often a player will play through balls or dribble with the ball either centrally towards the goal or down the wings. How often a player will attempt tricks to get past players. How often a player will track back to help defend.

I think this would solve some of the problems we face with PES. Because I understand what some of you are trying to say, players play identically.

This idea came from playing my favourite game right now, NBA 2K9. Graphics:Great, very life like, but is what you expect from a next-gen game anyway. But the gameplay is near life like also, a hard task accomplished and I put this down to their study of each attribute and how it affects their overall play. They also have coach profiles which in short is how the team plays whether defensively or with fast paced offence. If anyone has played it, they will know that it makes the game very enjoyable.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

That sounds nice, but my main disappointment with PES 09 isn't the gameplay of AI controlled players, rather it's the control mechanics of the players I control myself. If you can still dribble through all the AI controlled players with Messi it wouldn't be much different in that respect.


I should check out NBA 2K9 this weekend... Sounds sweet.

 

[HH]

It is, Raptors Fan ey?

Anyways, another thing that the game does is update the game according to the previous performances, it would take a mammoth effort for Konami to input that into PES but an player update maybe every month? Lets take Aston Villa and Arsenal for example, if player updates were in PES, Villa would be a great team to play with at the start of the season, whilst Arsenal would play with little confidence. Now its vice-versa. Little things like that would make PES great. I know FIFA do this aswell, but theres nothing that Konami cant do either.

 

[Desijut]

im playing with stoke in champions league mode on top player, so funny and a challenge

i won 1 - 0, grabbed a goal in the last minute whilst Slavia Prague dominated
Lost 2 - 1 to a french team whose name escapes me but i conceded a goal from a corner, now that isn't life like? For stoke to let in a goal from a corner?

 

[muzza798]

The only thing that makes pes 2009 hard is the AI when they decide you wont score.

 

[Lewdis]

I play Top Player and a ML with Liverpool and find some games difficult. I try to make the game as realistic as I can, so I don't sign players like Ronaldo to Liverpool because I know, in real life, he would never go to Liverpool.

 

[Amateur]

WOW... it's been months since I last played PES6, and I'm stunned.. I cannot believe how Konami fucked up so badly.

PES6 played like Real Football, it isn't necessarily faster than PES09, but it certainly is Mentally Faster. You have to be more cunning when you play PES6, because you get Less Space and everything looks and feels more responsive. Not faster, but more responsive. I forgot how fun it was.

The fluid Gameplay, the "never know what's going to happen next" factor.. the player differences, the responsiveness.. PES6 is better than PES09 in almost every aspect.

On the other hand..

PES09 doesn't play like Real Football, you get an unbelievable amount of time and space to think what you're going to do next, and everything feels very "watered down".

And there's this FIFA-Like Feeling to it.. it's like you know what's going to happen, and it becomes repetitive like FIFA. It certainly doesn't haves that "don't know what will happen next" feeling, because it is a very SLOW game, it is Mentally or Tactically Slow and Boring.

The only thing that surprises me about the game is when I score a Long Range Goal, that's the only "surprising" thing about PES09. Other than that, it's all very predictable and repetitive -- Like FIFA.

And to make it worst, everything feels so Rigid: the Movements, the Passing, everything.. it just feels out of date.

It doesn't feels as responsive and fluid as PES6, and the differences between players are NOT as Realistic and Defined as before. Instead of improving on PES6, Konami actually made PES a more one-dimensional game.

I just fail to understand WHY?? Instead of adding New Substance and Depth to the game, Konami removed substance from the game.

 

[Amateur]

Will adding tendencies to the game make it better? Tendencies to help with individual stats. For example, how often a player will play through balls or dribble with the ball either centrally towards the goal or down the wings. How often a player will attempt tricks to get past players. How often a player will track back to help defend.

I think this would solve some of the problems we face with PES. Because I understand what some of you are trying to say, players play identically.

This idea came from playing my favourite game right now, NBA 2K9. Graphics:Great, very life like, but is what you expect from a next-gen game anyway. But the gameplay is near life like also, a hard task accomplished and I put this down to their study of each attribute and how it affects their overall play. They also have coach profiles which in short is how the team plays whether defensively or with fast paced offence. If anyone has played it, they will know that it makes the game very enjoyable.

Completely agree about the Player Tendencies.. it could determine how a player moves off-the-ball.

Sometime ago I had written a long post on "Player Tendencies" but right now I don't remember much of it. But it makes sense, look at Messi and his tendency of running through the Right Flank so that he can then Cut Inside to the Left.

 

[HH]

Exactly, Robinho, Robben, Messi, Ronaldo all play similarly in 2009. You can stick them on the right wing and cut in. But only Messi does that masterfully. Lets also look at Frank Lampard, whenever I see him play, he is either trying to play the ball square or backwards and only sometimes passing it forward. Even then, he only does so with a long pass. He rarely breaks through the defence with dribbles either. But of course, in 2009, ive seen Frank Lampard being played like a Kaka. Its weird and not right. Then we complain about all these people online playing rubbish football, but the only reason is that PES2009 allows them to do so.

 

[l0git3c]

And that's precisely my point.. both Robinho and Messi have Skill and Pace.

Thierry Henry and Leo Messi have Skill and Pace.

Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messo both have Skill and Pace.

Does this mean they should be Identical?????? Of course not!!

In Real Life Robinho uses more tricks and flicks than Messi, including Step Overs. Whereas on the other hand, Messi keeps it simple with his Dribbling, he just Cuts the Ball, never uses Step Overs, and is more Explosive than Robinho.

This DIFFERENCES are not reflected on PES09.

Robinho and Messi are pretty much the same players. Messi and Aguero feel like identical players with Different Faces.

Riquelme rarely ever does his Trademark Moves with the Sole of the Foot. He doesn't feels different nor unique.

It is disappointing to see that very different players such as Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi feel so similar in-game. They do the same exact tricks.

And that's exactly what PES09 and all the PES versions to date LACK. They lack Team Chemistry, because there is no difference between "good" players and "great" players. Equally good players do not feel different.

And as a result, TEAMS do not feel different. Maybe you can notice a difference between Average Teams and Big Teams.. But there just isn't enough of a difference between Big Teams with quality players.

I cannot say that Barcelona feels significantly different to Inter, or that Arsenal feels different to Chelsea.

There just aren't enough Stats defining Individuals and Teams. The game simply needs more Stats.. otherwise, the movements can improve, the graphics -- But if the Foundations remain the same, the game will remain more or less the same.

For me this is a major disappointment, and to improve in this respect they will have to get rid of one-dimensional Stats such as "Dribbling Accuracy".

I feel that PES should have grown in this respect already.. Hopefully PES 2010 finally offers us a real "Evolution".


P.S - My apologies if the rant annoys you. It's more directed to Katsumoto.

hey man, we control the players, so messi and robinho (or someone with good pace and dribble ability) with the same person who play with them, they will exactly move identically. if you want different movement from each players, you should play Football Manager.

 

[shaun7]

^But pes can make it happen. Pes can make inividual players more lifelike and play more lifelike.

 

[MysteryMan]

hey man, we control the players, so messi and robinho (or someone with good pace and dribble ability) with the same person who play with them, they will exactly move identically. if you want different movement from each players, you should play Football Manager.

You aren't very bright are you? He's talking about computer controlled players not when you play with them , and even if you play with them most of the players don't feel like themself , they can all go on huge runs like Messi if you just know how , they don't even have a invidual style of play just the same as every single player...

 

[l0git3c]

^eh? computer controlled players? i read his post once again and i dont see any words that he mentioning 'when computer controlling players". can you tell me what sentence that he mentioning 'when computer controlling players" and in this case Messi, Ronaldo, and other pacey players.

@shaun
yea, maybe ur right, konami should do that in pes2010

 

[hoober]

And that's precisely my point.. both Robinho and Messi have Skill and Pace.

Thierry Henry and Leo Messi have Skill and Pace.

Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messo both have Skill and Pace.

Does this mean they should be Identical?????? Of course not!!

In Real Life Robinho uses more tricks and flicks than Messi, including Step Overs. Whereas on the other hand, Messi keeps it simple with his Dribbling, he just Cuts the Ball, never uses Step Overs, and is more Explosive than Robinho.

This DIFFERENCES are not reflected on PES09.

Robinho and Messi are pretty much the same players. Messi and Aguero feel like identical players with Different Faces.

Riquelme rarely ever does his Trademark Moves with the Sole of the Foot. He doesn't feels different nor unique.

It is disappointing to see that very different players such as Cristiano Ronaldo and Leo Messi feel so similar in-game. They do the same exact tricks.

And that's exactly what PES09 and all the PES versions to date LACK. They lack Team Chemistry, because there is no difference between "good" players and "great" players. Equally good players do not feel different.

And as a result, TEAMS do not feel different. Maybe you can notice a difference between Average Teams and Big Teams.. But there just isn't enough of a difference between Big Teams with quality players.

I cannot say that Barcelona feels significantly different to Inter, or that Arsenal feels different to Chelsea.

There just aren't enough Stats defining Individuals and Teams. The game simply needs more Stats.. otherwise, the movements can improve, the graphics -- But if the Foundations remain the same, the game will remain more or less the same.

For me this is a major disappointment, and to improve in this respect they will have to get rid of one-dimensional Stats such as "Dribbling Accuracy".

I feel that PES should have grown in this respect already.. Hopefully PES 2010 finally offers us a real "Evolution".


P.S - My apologies if the rant annoys you. It's more directed to Katsumoto.

What I think is, these things reflected on how you play the game. If your playing style is the same, with the identical players, you will experience the same. Try to limit yourself in the way you play, like you need to get a higher possession in most games, score team goals rather than individual effort, etc etc. Just like Henry and Messi, they have pace and skill, but Henry can finish better, and probably someone will say both of them in their team can equally finish well.

How about things like free kicks? Messi don't have better free kick stats than henry. Body balance? Henry is higher (didn't check the stats, but presumably so). These things does affect the play, only if you don't play the game based on one style.