Is Pes 09 Too Easy?

[hoober]

And i think, if you've know the way to dribble past AI defenders, and feel that it's not a challenge anymore, try not to keep doing that. Any tasks that you do with the same way and achieved success will eventually makes you feel boring with it. Try to play teams like Sunderland, who doesn't have identical players like Ronaldo, Messi, Tevez etc. Then you will try to play a different way, learn to be patient etc.

I couldn't agree anymore that PES 6 is by far the best football game, even after 2 new editions of PES, which they've failed miserably to better the old PES 6. I still remember when i can play like 15 - 20 seasons in ML without feeling boring in PES 6, but i get bored when i play like 3 or 4 seasons in ML for pes 2009.

But there's one element in the PES game which I like the most, something that fifa don't have, is when you're losing 1-0 and in the final 15 - 20 mins, the game starts to get more excited... the AI is trying to defend and you're attacking relentlessly... sending long balls up, crosses into the box, cleared, long shots, blocked etc etc... non-stop action.... That's the best thing i like about PES.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

But there's one element in the PES game which I like the most, something that fifa don't have, is when you're losing 1-0 and in the final 15 - 20 mins, the game starts to get more excited... the AI is trying to defend and you're attacking relentlessly... sending long balls up, crosses into the box, cleared, long shots, blocked etc etc... non-stop action.... That's the best thing i like about PES.

I agree. Some people call that last minute excitement AI cheating though!

I, for one, can't understand how that can be interpreted as cheating/scripting. It's not your team that is scripted, it's the CPU team, and compared to other games where I have seen AI actually cheat, this is a welcome compromise (they just seem to try harder instead of dropping like flies when you score one or two).

I think it makes the game better and offers a challenge even if you are the type who likes to pass it to Messi and dribble the whole team...

Also, for those who think it's cheating, I almost lost yesterday to Tottenham in my ML in the last 10 minutes after being up 2-0... But... whent they were awarded a penalty Keane missed! Hmmmm... If it was genuine cheating wouldn't he havemade the shot? Then, into extra time they hit the post on a sitter... Cheating? I think it's just that they press up and attack more in the final minutes, personally. If you lose and call it cheating, well...

 

[shaun7]

I agree. Some people call that last minute excitement AI cheating though

That's not excactly cheating, but when the game suddenly becomes too AI controled is AI cheating. Like when, your defenders will suddenly get out of their position automatically, your passes will be bad, your shots will go wide, and the AI players will have super speed and will score cheap goals. That's the cheating I want to be cut out of pes 2010.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

Sorry Shaun7. When I hear people talking that way I can't believe it. To me, it's like you're describing a different game...

passes bad - all of a sudden you feel your team passes badly? When the other team starts to pressure you more they are more likely to be there to intercept. In other words, are you sure it's the pass that's bad??? If so, do you really believe that Konami programmed in a cheat? You mean you really think that your player makes a bad pass because the CPU wants to win? If I could say I've seen it myself I might be able to agree. But I haven't. I have only seen a few occurences on Top Player where a strong squad is losing and applying a lot of pressure. Sometimes, rarely, that means my passes are intercepted that would normally have been completed. Again, though, that has to do witht he cpu AI, not my team's AI.

Missing shots -- As I explained above, the CPU misses shots even when they are turning up the pressure (hit post and missed pen in one game!). My players miss shots all the time. Do you really believe that the cpu is programmed to make your player miss when the other team is pressuring? Haven't you scored any last minute winners of your own? I've honestly scored way more last minute equalizers or winning goals than I've missed. And I'm not using players with shot acc over 85, most well under or in the mid to high 70s.

Super Speed - Honestly, never noticed this at all. Again, though, you're talking about the AI of the CPU. As long as the advantage is for the CPU and not against my team I'm fine with it. IMO, it's nice to have the challenge this brings compared to it being too easy.

Cheap goals - example? 9/10 goals the CPU scores on my in PES 09 are not repeats of things I've seen before, and to be honest I've seen them score quite a few beauties that are better than many of the goals I've scored. I've even saved some of the replays of CPU goals. If you want to talk about cheap goals, look at some other sports games. I don't think PES 09 CPU scores cheap goals in comparison. The only exception to this is the corners, but I've gotten very good at defending these. They rarely score on me from these anymore.

Defenders out of position - I have noticed this a bit, especially my SBs getting caught out of position. There are things you can do tactically to adjust this however, including changing their role to CB and pulling them back. Again, I think this has more to do with the opposing AI making runs than it does with your own players intentionally going out of position. In real life, it's the attacker who causes problems for the defender, but sometimes it is the defense who makes the mistake. I could believe there are mistakes made by defenders, but I find the claim that they occur intentionally as part of some secret scripting in the game I find hard to believe. Again, if I saw it regularly I could believe it but I can think of only one or two cases of my defenders being out of position... but was it them, or the run of the cpu that was to blame?

 

[Amateur]

Sorry Shaun7. When I hear people talking that way I can't believe it. To me, it's like you're describing a different game...

passes bad - all of a sudden you feel your team passes badly? When the other team starts to pressure you more they are more likely to be there to intercept. In other words, are you sure it's the pass that's bad??? If so, do you really believe that Konami programmed in a cheat? You mean you really think that your player makes a bad pass because the CPU wants to win? If I could say I've seen it myself I might be able to agree. But I haven't. I have only seen a few occurences on Top Player where a strong squad is losing and applying a lot of pressure. Sometimes, rarely, that means my passes are intercepted that would normally have been completed. Again, though, that has to do witht he cpu AI, not my team's AI.

Missing shots -- As I explained above, the CPU misses shots even when they are turning up the pressure (hit post and missed pen in one game!). My players miss shots all the time. Do you really believe that the cpu is programmed to make your player miss when the other team is pressuring? Haven't you scored any last minute winners of your own? I've honestly scored way more last minute equalizers or winning goals than I've missed. And I'm not using players with shot acc over 85, most well under or in the mid to high 70s.

Super Speed - Honestly, never noticed this at all. Again, though, you're talking about the AI of the CPU. As long as the advantage is for the CPU and not against my team I'm fine with it. IMO, it's nice to have the challenge this brings compared to it being too easy.

Cheap goals - example? 9/10 goals the CPU scores on my in PES 09 are not repeats of things I've seen before, and to be honest I've seen them score quite a few beauties that are better than many of the goals I've scored. I've even saved some of the replays of CPU goals. If you want to talk about cheap goals, look at some other sports games. I don't think PES 09 CPU scores cheap goals in comparison. The only exception to this is the corners, but I've gotten very good at defending these. They rarely score on me from these anymore.

Defenders out of position - I have noticed this a bit, especially my SBs getting caught out of position. There are things you can do tactically to adjust this however, including changing their role to CB and pulling them back. Again, I think this has more to do with the opposing AI making runs than it does with your own players intentionally going out of position. In real life, it's the attacker who causes problems for the defender, but sometimes it is the defense who makes the mistake. I could believe there are mistakes made by defenders, but I find the claim that they occur intentionally as part of some secret scripting in the game I find hard to believe. Again, if I saw it regularly I could believe it but I can think of only one or two cases of my defenders being out of position... but was it them, or the run of the cpu that was to blame?

I agree with Shaun7.

Oh and you ought to know -- Seabass himself confirmed that some "momentum shifts" are scripted to go against you. Seabass himself admitted that there is "scripting" and cheating in-game.

Seabass even said that it's been a feature of PES for quite some years now. So I don't quite understand how you find it "hard to believe" when Seabass himself confirmed this to be true.

When you have the suspicion that the COM is cheating... you can easily confirm this by pausing the game going to REPLAY -and- you will get to see how your Defenders leave their positions, whilst at the same time Samuel Eto'o is running into that gap... you can see how your Center Back stands there watching how the Goal goes in -- It is CHEATING.

And it is completely out of your hands. You are basically taking a ride with the COM: you tap a couple of buttons here and there, decide how and when to pass or shot the ball -but- do you have any control over your Team's off-the-ball movement??

You have never noticed super-speed??

Well maybe it is you who's describing a different game... Super-Speed is easily noticeable, and I've experienced plenty of times, I got the ball with Fernando Torres and all of a sudden John Terry comes from behind Torres and Accelerates past Torres.

When I check the Stats Fernando Torres haves much better Top Speed and Acceleration than John Terry. So I find it hard to believe that John Terry would outrun Torres -- CHEATING.

Cheap Goals?? Pro Evolution 2009 is full of them.

10 out of 10 goals the COM scores against me are Identical: Corner Kick, GK Blunder, Corner Kick, GK Blunder, and of course my Center Backs suddenly deciding they don't want to defend.

And at times I get really funny ones... like Samuel Eto'o literally running circles around my Defense.

Mistakes made by Defenders??

I got a problem with that... I have no problem with it being MY MISTAKE -but- a COM mistake?? Something that's completely out of my hands?

Bottom Line is that the COM decides too many things for you, and it is obvious by now. Konami must give us more control over the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts". Konami must give us more control over everything.

Some of us, like myself and Shaun7 -want- more of us in the game, and less COM in the game. Too many things are decided by COM-Dictated Mistakes -and- not by our actual skills as players.

Konami must give us more control and freedom to make our Own Mistakes and our own brilliant moves. Many "hardcore" PES Fans have turned to FIFA09 because of this; there's less cheating involved, it's more about YOU, and less about the COM.

 

[Charlie]

Applying 'pressure 2' more than you should also drags players all over the pitch and makes your tactics looking like Andy Grays when he gets on his wee Sky Sports machine.

 

[shaun7]

Sorry Shaun7. When I hear people talking that way I can't believe it. To me, it's like you're describing a different game...

passes bad - all of a sudden you feel your team passes badly? When the other team starts to pressure you more they are more likely to be there to intercept. In other words, are you sure it's the pass that's bad??? If so, do you really believe that Konami programmed in a cheat? You mean you really think that your player makes a bad pass because the CPU wants to win? If I could say I've seen it myself I might be able to agree. But I haven't. I have only seen a few occurences on Top Player where a strong squad is losing and applying a lot of pressure. Sometimes, rarely, that means my passes are intercepted that would normally have been completed. Again, though, that has to do witht he cpu AI, not my team's AI.

Missing shots -- As I explained above, the CPU misses shots even when they are turning up the pressure (hit post and missed pen in one game!). My players miss shots all the time. Do you really believe that the cpu is programmed to make your player miss when the other team is pressuring? Haven't you scored any last minute winners of your own? I've honestly scored way more last minute equalizers or winning goals than I've missed. And I'm not using players with shot acc over 85, most well under or in the mid to high 70s.

Super Speed - Honestly, never noticed this at all. Again, though, you're talking about the AI of the CPU. As long as the advantage is for the CPU and not against my team I'm fine with it. IMO, it's nice to have the challenge this brings compared to it being too easy.

Cheap goals - example? 9/10 goals the CPU scores on my in PES 09 are not repeats of things I've seen before, and to be honest I've seen them score quite a few beauties that are better than many of the goals I've scored. I've even saved some of the replays of CPU goals. If you want to talk about cheap goals, look at some other sports games. I don't think PES 09 CPU scores cheap goals in comparison. The only exception to this is the corners, but I've gotten very good at defending these. They rarely score on me from these anymore.

Defenders out of position - I have noticed this a bit, especially my SBs getting caught out of position. There are things you can do tactically to adjust this however, including changing their role to CB and pulling them back. Again, I think this has more to do with the opposing AI making runs than it does with your own players intentionally going out of position. In real life, it's the attacker who causes problems for the defender, but sometimes it is the defense who makes the mistake. I could believe there are mistakes made by defenders, but I find the claim that they occur intentionally as part of some secret scripting in the game I find hard to believe. Again, if I saw it regularly I could believe it but I can think of only one or two cases of my defenders being out of position... but was it them, or the run of the cpu that was to blame?

Now, I am not saying I hate pes 09, but these are the really bad things that annoy me. I stil play BAL you know and I really like it.
Amateur described the cheating and scripting in detail.
That's what I want to be better.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

Sorry if I came off a bit harsh there. I just want those who feel like Amateur does to know that there are people out there, like myself, who don't see it that way.

Why our opinions differ is not really important, but my guess is it has to do with A.) how much you have played PES in ML, i.e. how much of a chance you have given it, B.) How much you appreciate a game that offers a challenge (maybe I'm weird, but I like to feel that I can easily lose and I would rather have questionable AI that tries hard to win than "fair" AI that are a pushover), and C.) is you glass half empty or half full? In my opinion it's all about whether you want to enjoy the game or you want to dislike it. I chose to be positive, maybe it's my personality to be that way, but... For me, anyway, I am able to enjoy the game because of that instead of wasting my time complaining about it. No game is perfect, but they can all be enjoyed if you take them for what they are.

In other words, from my perspective - which you can try to prove to be "wrong" by misquoting Seabass all you like - I can't see the problem. Rather, I see it as an imporvement over PES 5 and 6. It could be better, but I think it would be a shame for me, personally, if Konami listened to the fans who are complaining about this, because obviously some of us appreciate it. Maybe the solution would be for there to be an unlockable sixth star level in PES 2010 which had more of a challenging AI (or cheating AI if you want to call it that) for those of us who want a challenge above all else. On the other hand, if online works well next year then there will be a challenge there... What I don't want to see is another PES where it's too easy to win. In my opinion, even with an average team on top player PES 09 verges on being too easy. What saves it is the "cheating."

M.O.O. (my opinion only).

 

[shaun7]

Sorry, but you are wrong when saying challenging and cheating AI are sort of the same.

. Maybe the solution would be for there to be an unlockable sixth star level in PES 2010 which had more of a challenging AI (or cheating AI if you want to call it that

I don't wanna argue over a prooven fact. PES CHEATS ALOT.
There's a difference between challenging AI and cheating AI. PES ALWAYS HAD CHEATING AI. This is not only the case with pes 09.
Still, as I said. I like pes 09. I really do. I am still playing BAL. But the cheating is too annoying.
Fifa 09 may have some bad things, but the game doesn't cheat nearly as much as pes.
Fifa 09 is more challenging and much less AI controlled. There's a big difference between a challenge and a cheat.
Play FIFA 09 and see what I am talking about.
They play intelligently, not by having better speed (AI players are always better in pes), or by defenders suddenly walking out of thier position.
Fifa does it much less.
Now again, I don't mean fifa 09 is better. It's not. The shooting from distance sucks in fifa 09. And passes are a bit slow, and the game is a bit unresponsive.
Both games have flaws. But both are good.

 

[Amateur]

Sorry if I came off a bit harsh there. I just want those who feel like Amateur does to know that there are people out there, like myself, who don't see it that way.

Why our opinions differ is not really important, but my guess is it has to do with A.) how much you have played PES in ML, i.e. how much of a chance you have given it, B.) How much you appreciate a game that offers a challenge (maybe I'm weird, but I like to feel that I can easily lose and I would rather have questionable AI that tries hard to win than "fair" AI that are a pushover), and C.) is you glass half empty or half full? In my opinion it's all about whether you want to enjoy the game or you want to dislike it. I chose to be positive, maybe it's my personality to be that way, but... For me, anyway, I am able to enjoy the game because of that instead of wasting my time complaining about it. No game is perfect, but they can all be enjoyed if you take them for what they are.

In other words, from my perspective - which you can try to prove to be "wrong" by misquoting Seabass all you like - I can't see the problem. Rather, I see it as an imporvement over PES 5 and 6. It could be better, but I think it would be a shame for me, personally, if Konami listened to the fans who are complaining about this, because obviously some of us appreciate it. Maybe the solution would be for there to be an unlockable sixth star level in PES 2010 which had more of a challenging AI (or cheating AI if you want to call it that) for those of us who want a challenge above all else. On the other hand, if online works well next year then there will be a challenge there... What I don't want to see is another PES where it's too easy to win. In my opinion, even with an average team on top player PES 09 verges on being too easy. What saves it is the "cheating."

M.O.O. (my opinion only).

I completely disagree and I won't argue over a FACT.

PES6 had cheating, but it also gave you much more control to handle all the AI-Cheating. On the other hand, PES09 doesn't gives you enough control and most of the AI-Cheating is completely out of your hands.

* It isn't "challenging" -it- is "cheating" full of cheap/repetitive goals.

To describe PES 2009 as a "challenging" game is quite laughable in my opinion. It is one of the easiest PES versions for me, it very Slow Tactically and Mentally, and I can basically score at will.

I have given PES09 a very good try, a couple of months... the more I play the game the less I like it, it is a bad game; bad programming. This is WHY the sales have gone down, because PES isn't good anymore.

In my opinion, even with an average team PES09 is incredibly easy and BORING to play -and- what makes it worst is the "cheating".

You just Tap a couple of buttons, and the COM takes care of the rest. You are basically spoon-fed by the COM. And the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts" are completely out of your hands. You can only play along with the COM.

Challenging AI -and- Cheating AI - completely different things.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

Then we must agree to disagree.

When I go home at the end of the work day and play PES today I'll think of this thread and wonder why it is that someone feels the need to tell me that what I am experiencing is wrong. I enjoy the game. That's my "problem" not yours, but I thought you should know that some people see it the way I do.

Why??? Well, maybe I'm not as good at the game, so the challenge is there for me... Maybe I'm much better at it and so the "cheating" is just a welcome part of the game. Maybe I just don't care as much about the little things... Who knows. Either way, your opinion can't change my reality, just like mine can't change yours. I understand the way you see things. We're all entitled to our opinions, but we aren't entitled to telling others they aren't allowed to have one. That being said, I'm sorry if I offended either of you. I agree that PES 09 could be better, but my point is, basically, that this "cheating" doesn't bother me in the slightest (let's just say I barely notice what you're talking about, and when I do I tend to appreciate it compared to older versions which had much weaker AI).

I can say this again and again and I know it won't make a difference to either of you. The difference between what I'm saying and what you are saying though is that I am only talking about my own opinion. You on the other hand are talking as if your own opinion is the TRUTH. We all saw that DD made this mistake and what people had to say about that.

Anyway... The point is, I'm here to tell you, whether you like it or not, that it's just not the truth for everyone. It's like saying Country music is horrible. Some people like it, others don't. Similarly, I'm not saying that the "scripting" doesn't exist. I'm just saying that I interpret it differently.

If you really want to argue though, then I'd say that the way I'm interpreting it is the way Konami interpreted it, and that therefore that's the "correct" way to look at it. Moreover, I can sit here and tell you that I am capable of enjoying the game, whereas neither of you are able to get over these niggly things that, IMO, actually make PES 09 unique. These are, perhaps, flaws, but are they such a HUGE deal? Can't you get past them and try to enjoy the game for what it is?

I can, but that's my "problem," not anyone else's, and if I was the only person on Earth who saw things the way I do, I still wouldn't change my opinion. Again, you are entitled to feel the same way, but you lose all my respect when you tell me, or anyone else, that your view is the only acceptable truth.

This isn't Science, it's a game. It's like music, movies, and anything else like that. If it were a simple matter of, say, saying that the players in the game are taller and skinnier than in real life, you could argue about truth. However, what you are arguing is much more subtle than that. If you had written the code yourself and could show some proof that the cheating exists and is actually intentional (why the hell woudl Konami do that anyway????), then we could argue about fact. But, you simply don't have that. Unless you can find a quote where Seabass actually says "in PES we make the cpu team cheat, because we like it when they win and we want to piss you all off" then you've had all of my business you're going to get. Sure, you'll want to have the last word, right? But you'll surely say the same things again, how I'm wrong and it's a matter of fact, which will just prove my point.

 

[Amateur]

That's your opinion, you like the game... FACT remains that sales have gone Down: there's something about PES09 that people don't like.

The AI-Cheating: is a FACT, a Reality, it is not an opinion.

You like the AI-Cheating?? That's your opinion... but it doesn't changes the FACT that the game haves AI-Cheating, and that many things are completely out of your hands.

I don't like the AI-Cheating, and it is my opinion... but it doesn't changes the FACT that AI-Cheating is a Part of PES.

Which is a flaw that should have been fixed with Next Gen Consoles and -instead- of improving on it, Konami actually made it worst with the infamous "Teamvision".

I thin there should be AI-Controlled "momentum shifts" because that's realistic -but- Konami must give us some control over the AI-Controlled "Momentum Shifts".

Otherwise more and more people will get tired of the Old Cheating -and- will eventually turn to FIFA. This is something that Konami must address.

* Obvious AI-Cheating.
* Crappy Animations and Movements.
* Repetitive Gameplay.
* Unplayable Online.
* Unrealistic Disproportions in Time and Space.
* Lack of Innovation.
* The list keeps going.

And again... Seabass himself said that PES was "Scripted" to some extent. This is what happens when your opponents suddenly become stronger and faster than you: AI-Controlled Momentum Shifts that are "scripted" against you.

If you cannot see that... then there's not much point in arguing about this. I do not find it challenging, I find it easy and predictable -and- so do many other players that aren't happy with PES09.

We have grown past this, we want Challenging AI -instead- of Cheating AI.

I do not need to prove anything, all the proof you need -you- can find by simply playing PES09.

Although by the looks of it, you're not very good, or maybe you simply don't notice all the little details involved in AI-Cheating.

But whatever... you seem to enjoy the challenge that the "AI-Cheating" provides... so, enjoy it while it lasts. Fact remains that sales have gone down, there's something about PES09 that many fans don't like.

 

[shaun7]

^I have to agree on cheating, but I still like pes 09.

 

[backtobasics]

i've found pes' "cheating" to be more prevelant in cup and cl modes. e.g. i'll be 4-1-0 with one game left to play against a poorer team i already beat 5-0. however, the computer will win, even if i play the same game 5+ times. the computer always seems to find a way to put away deflection goals (you know the type, angled shot the keeper palms into the lap of another attacker).

"cheating" appears in those modes more often, where it seems reminiscent of the old "impossible to win fifa match." some will recall from the old fifa games (i havent played the new one), that during manager mode you'd win 6 straight then lose to watford 6-0. the same thing, i find, happens during cup modes and tournaments.

 

[zizou4ever]

AI cheating is really obvious and one of the most annoying things in PES.

I cannot agree with the idea that suddenly your players become numb and for no reason your defenders run to the opposite direction of the ball (for some "strange reason" pressing L1 doesn't give me the control of my defenders) and the attacker goes free to score. I don't think this is a "welcome part of the game".

I don't think it is nice to see the CPU having the privilege of scoring impossible goals because the AI is not competent enough to do it in the right way.

You see, I don't remember the last time I lost against the CPU. Actually it's very seldom I score less than 3 goals in a game. Yet, when AI cheats (and it does frequently), it bothers me a lot not because I will loose the game or something, but because I have absolutely no control of my own players! It's like: - OK, I will slap your face, defend yourself. And then tied my hands!!

AI scores these ways against me:
- corners (my defenders don't jump and are just frozen watching the ball)
- free kicks (whose foul was made by a player of my team who wasn't controlled by me!)
- Moses in the Red Sea score (like the previous example; all my defenders suddenly run to opposite directions giving the CPU an open way to run to score; when it happens there is no way for me to control any of my defenders, only the players who are behind the attacker)
- Superman score (when some ordinary player becomes incredibly fast and agile and goes dribbling all my defenders and I can do nothing)
- outside of the box (again, some ordinary player shoots and incredible ball from an incredible angle and scores!)

And I am not talking about the small things that "happens" during the game like when easy passes go to strange directions (i.e. straight to the opposition's foot), when my attackers just cannot score, etc.

Of course, it does not happens all the time, but when it does, it annoys me a lot. Sometimes CPU scores some nice goals and I even watch the replay to see them closely. I wish they were more often.

Why does AI cheat bother me?

Because I cannot control. I am not able even to try to avoid. Is this fair? Is this a "nice feature of the game"?

To be honest I believe the cheating happens for incompetence of the AI. If the AI was really intelligent, then it would not be necessary to cheat. We would have a good (or very good) CPU opponent and the challenge would make PES a better game.

 

[Red Owl]

What do you guys think? Top player is just ridiculous or what?

Aye, I wish it could go up just one notch. Just won the D1 league and cup with the starting players (plus about 10 new signings, all frees I think. No loans), even if it was by 1 point, it was still about 10 places higher than I should have been. I occasionally get a really good game, but I win about 96% of games.

 

[kadafi316]

i think we can all agree that the ai cheat in the fk department ? top player 9/10 top corner crouchinoo put him on the line and still they crack it just in the smallest gap possable to man im talking inches here they are so acurate it must be a cheat lol