Ref: An honest (and logical) reason why PES is struggling

[thearsenal]

Yank:
I think you make a very good stab here as to why many people prefer pes . One can’t dispute that the added element of al manual controls in Fifa is a step forward, but for me this has its drawbacks.

when you become ‘good’ at manual in fifa, it will take away the realism factor. Passes will soon become too easy to employ, and it will only make exploiting the flaws in the game more apparent (ping pong passing and the unrealistic amount of 1 on 1chances you can create)

Would I like to play pro evo all in manual? I don’t think so. I think I would like the option, but what you have now and always have had in Pes is what I believe to be a decent attempt at making an accurate representation of the game, with some passes not being perfect and others being decent for example. The way you can try to effect this is by deliberate timing of plays, body positioning and an understanding of the game. Consequently the game becomes challenging and rewarding.


from my point of view, and maybe yours too, the Pes gameplay has always been solid and built around a core system which works. This is undisputable (Pro 1-6 on Ps2/xbox and to a slightly lesser extent 08 and 09) The way I’d describe it is that the gameplay is consistent.With pes you what you see on the pith is what you get, and the game is always in your hands and yours to change because once you get the hang of it you begin to understand what you can and can not do and there is very little in terms of outside interference which directly effects your team play.

For me Pes is a challenging and accurate representation of the game which demands adaptable play, something which after playing I think fifa lacks

 

[Ant1975]

No offense, mate, but this is exactly what I was talking about. You make this generalized statement that PES is easy and FIFA isn't, without citing anything to back it up. I understand that you say you wrote a massive response before the website crashed, in which you may have brought up some interesting points. But if you didn't want to rewrite it all, then why bother at all?

And I have to respectfully disagree with your statement. I don't find PES to be easier than FIFA at all. Please don't mistake my confession that I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to be doing whilst playing FIFA to mean that I found it too difficult. I managed to win several FIFA matches, and I was playing it on manual. The problem is, with FIFA, there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why I was scoring goals or getting goals scored against me. And most of them resulted from 1 on 1 battles with the keepers. I may be new to football, but I know enough about it to know that isn't how most goals are scored in real games.

PES, on the other hand, forced me to play football properly in order to beat the AI. When playing the PES demo, I feel as though I have to be creative and try different things, whereas with FIFA I can just do the same thing over and over again, and the AI just does the same thing over and over again, as well.

Sorry but i did write a rather long explanation but lost it because the site logged me out and i cant be bothered to rewrite it.

For someone who has 'only just' learned footy games you seem well opinionated on matters which makes me think you are actually knowledgeable about things and nothing of a newbie sort. In fact the statement you played it on manual is a dead giveaway for the fact you know full well about the games in question.

And respectfully you must have played Fifa for 10 minutes and gave up because theres no way on earth a person NEW to fifa could play fifa on manual in his first few games on a challenging setting and win a few games as you say. Not even seasoned gamers i know have made the switch to all manual yet as its difficult to master.

i think you are talking tosh and know full well you are nothing of the newbie sort. theres no way you could have such a predetermined view of the two games without prior knowledge of the last 10 years of gaming history between the two.

is this what it comes down too? People lying about themselves to score points off one another? Dear me.

Yank:
I think you make a very good stab here as to why many people prefer pes . One can’t dispute that the added element of al manual controls in Fifa is a step forward, but for me this has its drawbacks.

when you become ‘good’ at manual in fifa, it will take away the realism factor. Passes will soon become too easy to employ, and it will only make exploiting the flaws in the game more apparent (ping pong passing and the unrealistic amount of 1 on 1chances you can create)

Would I like to play pro evo all in manual? I don’t think so. I think I would like the option, but what you have now and always have had in Pes is what I believe to be a decent attempt at making an accurate representation of the game, with some passes not being perfect and others being decent for example. The way you can try to effect this is by deliberate timing of plays, body positioning and an understanding of the game. Consequently the game becomes challenging and rewarding.


from my point of view, and maybe yours too, the Pes gameplay has always been solid and built around a core system which works. This is undisputable (Pro 1-6 on Ps2/xbox and to a slightly lesser extent 08 and 09) The way I’d describe it is that the gameplay is consistent.With pes you what you see on the pith is what you get, and the game is always in your hands and yours to change because once you get the hang of it you begin to understand what you can and can not do and there is very little in terms of outside interference which directly effects your team play.

For me Pes is a challenging and accurate representation of the game which demands adaptable play, something which after playing I think fifa lacks

thearsenal he is not a newbie, not a cat in hells chance. :happy:

Did you read what I posted? I didn't say PES was lacking......

Exactly. thats the point. thats why it hasnt exclipsed its PS2 predecessor on next gen.

Your giving konami the perfect excuse to churn out the same substandard game year on year.

Yank:
I think you make a very good stab here as to why many people prefer pes . One can’t dispute that the added element of al manual controls in Fifa is a step forward, but for me this has its drawbacks.

when you become ‘good’ at manual in fifa, it will take away the realism factor. Passes will soon become too easy to employ, and it will only make exploiting the flaws in the game more apparent (ping pong passing and the unrealistic amount of 1 on 1chances you can create)

Would I like to play pro evo all in manual? I don’t think so. I think I would like the option, but what you have now and always have had in Pes is what I believe to be a decent attempt at making an accurate representation of the game, with some passes not being perfect and others being decent for example. The way you can try to effect this is by deliberate timing of plays, body positioning and an understanding of the game. Consequently the game becomes challenging and rewarding.


from my point of view, and maybe yours too, the Pes gameplay has always been solid and built around a core system which works. This is undisputable (Pro 1-6 on Ps2/xbox and to a slightly lesser extent 08 and 09) The way I’d describe it is that the gameplay is consistent.With pes you what you see on the pith is what you get, and the game is always in your hands and yours to change because once you get the hang of it you begin to understand what you can and can not do and there is very little in terms of outside interference which directly effects your team play.

For me Pes is a challenging and accurate representation of the game which demands adaptable play, something which after playing I think fifa lacks

The demo isnt rewarding though and neither is the passing. if the computer assists my passing its not me playing it. the passing isnt a patch on its we6FE days where you did get misplaced passes.

i swear some people just make things up.

 

[wallpaper_01]

I recon your right n he isnt a newbie. But i do think pretty much everything he said is right...

 

[thearsenal]

Ant:

I can fully understand the argument for manual controls, but there is definitely an argument against it which i've attempted to put across in my last post (it might not seem very clear)

Fifa has made some very decent attempts at moving the footy game genre forward, whilst Pes has stuck (to an extent) to its tried and tested solid gameplay.

The biggest annoyance for me mate is when people make rash and stubborn judgements on what is better, thus proving their ignorance and stupidity. I'm not plain calling you stupid, don't get me wrong, but many fifa fans (alot who have appeared to register in the last month on this site) don't fully acknowledge or don't wish to accept Pes' strengths which are in abundance.

This argument could be never ending, and once agin its down to taste, and for me, Pes offers the more engrossing and demanding game of football.

 

[Ant1975]

I recon your right n he isnt a newbie. But i do think pretty much everything he said is right...

So why pretend to be someone you aint just to get a point across?

Ant:

I can fully understand the argument for manual controls, but there is definitely an argument against it which i've attempted to put across in my last post (it might not seem very clear)

Fifa has made some very decent attempts at moving the footy game genre forward, whilst Pes has stuck (to an extent) to its tried and tested solid gameplay.

The biggest annoyance for me mate is when people make rash and stubborn judgements on what is better, thus proving their ignorance and stupidity. I'm not plain calling you stupid, don't get me wrong, but many fifa fans (alot who have appeared to register in the last month on this site) don't fully acknowledge or don't wish to accept Pes' strengths which are in abundance.

This argument could be never ending, and once agin its down to taste, and for me, Pes offers the more engrossing and demanding game of football.

Mate they are on both sides believe me.

i would LOVE nothing more than two footy titles a year that i could get my teeth into. It gives me no pleasure to stick the knife into Pes, i just feel we aint getting our moneys worth in terms of next gen gaming, thats all.

And the only way to get the game we deserve is to put the boot in as harsh as that sounds. because gaming companies will rest on their laurels if they can get away with it.

Maybe its not Seabass's fault, maybe its the bigwigs at Konami. I know from experience that when your trying to push forward and improve something, if the big wigs think they can make the same money without the extra effort and thus cost they wont sanction it. If konami's bosses think it will sell regardless there wont be that extra effort.

Im just a little tired of being stung. I wasnt convinced with the demos of 08 and 09 but you know what i bought them anyway on the hope that they would improve over time and in the end ive had to get rid of them in despair.

Fifa may not be 100% perfect but theyve put effort in and revamped their game from a useless gimmicky pile of crap into something worthy, and that should be commended.

Ant:

I can fully understand the argument for manual controls, but there is definitely an argument against it which i've attempted to put across in my last post (it might not seem very clear)

Fifa has made some very decent attempts at moving the footy game genre forward, whilst Pes has stuck (to an extent) to its tried and tested solid gameplay.

The biggest annoyance for me mate is when people make rash and stubborn judgements on what is better, thus proving their ignorance and stupidity. I'm not plain calling you stupid, don't get me wrong, but many fifa fans (alot who have appeared to register in the last month on this site) don't fully acknowledge or don't wish to accept Pes' strengths which are in abundance.

This argument could be never ending, and once agin its down to taste, and for me, Pes offers the more engrossing and demanding game of football.

Also just thought i'd mention, im not a FIfa fan im a footy game fan

 

[wallpaper_01]

i do agree fifa has defo got better but i think 09 was better than 10. Infact i was excited about 10 but it really dissapointed me.

 

[thearsenal]

And the only way to get the game we deserve is to put the boot in as harsh as that sounds. because gaming companies will rest on their laurels if they can get away with it.

Maybe its not Seabass's fault, maybe its the bigwigs at Konami. I know from experience that when your trying to push forward and improve something, if the big wigs think they can make the same money without the extra effort and thus cost they wont sanction it. If konami's bosses think it will sell regardless there wont be that extra effort.

mate its with quotes like this which baffle me and show your ignorance. we have just been debating 'this' and 'that' for a while, i've heard your point of view and you;ve heard mine. Yet you still don;t seem to grasp, let alone accept that people prefer Pes for a number of reasons and you continue with your stubborn and immovable proclamations about Konami. It's one dimensional and tiring.

 

[The Liverpool Way]

i do agree fifa has defo got better but i think 09 was better than 10. Infact i was excited about 10 but it really dissapointed me.

Me too. Very exited about FIFA10 but was let down

Hope that doesn't happen with PES2010 :mellow:

 

[BloodyYank]

Sorry but i did write a rather long explanation but lost it because the site logged me out and i cant be bothered to rewrite it.

For someone who has 'only just' learned footy games you seem well opinionated on matters which makes me think you are actually knowledgeable about things and nothing of a newbie sort. In fact the statement you played it on manual is a dead giveaway for the fact you know full well about the games in question.

And respectfully you must have played Fifa for 10 minutes and gave up because theres no way on earth a person NEW to fifa could play fifa on manual in his first few games on a challenging setting and win a few games as you say. Not even seasoned gamers i know have made the switch to all manual yet as its difficult to master.

i think you are talking tosh and know full well you are nothing of the newbie sort. theres no way you could have such a predetermined view of the two games without prior knowledge of the last 10 years of gaming history between the two.

is this what it comes down too? People lying about themselves to score points off one another? Dear me.



thearsenal he is not a newbie, not a cat in hells chance. :happy:


The demo isnt rewarding though and neither is the passing. if the computer assists my passing its not me playing it. the passing isnt a patch on its we6FE days where you did get misplaced passes.

i swear some people just make things up.

LOL! Why would I come on this board and pretend to be a newbie if I'm really not? That's absurd. Look, first of all, I assure you that compared to just about everyone else on this site, I am very much a newbie to video game soccer. Clearly, you didn't read my first post very carefully. I never said that I only played a few games of FIFA, nor did I claim that I switched it to manual straight away, nor that I've been playing on the most difficult settings. Let me repeat: I downloaded the FIFA 09 demo last year, and played it for several hours; I downloaded the FIFA 10 demo and played a good 20 or so matches on it before switching to manual. And yes, I've managed to win a few matches.

To say that it's impossible for me to form an opinion of these two games, based on my time playing the demos, without having played all the previous versions for the past 10 years is ridiculous. Now, my opinions don't mean as much as those of a veteran player, but I could also argue that my opinions aren't tainted by years of bias or expectations.

And just because I haven't played many footie video games, doesn't mean I don't have experience with other sports video games, such as hockey. I realize that hockey is a vastly different sport from football, but certain things, at least from a video game standpoint, can still carry over.

Also, not to sound conceited, but I also happen to be a fairly intelligent person. Don't underestimate the power of intelligence to overcome inexperience.

And finally, I wasn't trying to "score points" off you, as you say. I'm sorry if that's the impression you got.

 

[Ant1975]

mate its with quotes like this which baffle me and show your ignorance. we have just been debating 'this' and 'that' for a while, i've heard your point of view and you;ve heard mine. Yet you still don;t seem to grasp, let alone accept that people prefer Pes for a number of reasons and you continue with your stubborn and immovable proclamations about Konami. It's one dimensional and tiring.

Sorry what?

Its got sod all to do with what people like or dont like its about next gen gaming! In no way, whether you prefer pes or not - you can say to me that they are the best footy games that konami have produced? Are you seriously kidding me or what?

i dont understand why you get so offended. I work in the multimedia industry, we do cd roms, websites quite a lot in fact. If the bosses think they can turn out the same product for the same profit they will. They will save development time which equals money.

Jeez.:erm:

LOL! Why would I come on this board and pretend to be a newbie if I'm really not? That's absurd. Look, first of all, I assure you that compared to just about everyone else on this site, I am very much a newbie to video game soccer. Clearly, you didn't read my first post very carefully. I never said that I only played a few games of FIFA, nor did I claim that I switched it to manual straight away, nor that I've been playing on the most difficult settings. Let me repeat: I downloaded the FIFA 09 demo last year, and played it for several hours; I downloaded the FIFA 10 demo and played a good 20 or so matches on it before switching to manual. And yes, I've managed to win a few matches.

To say that it's impossible for me to form an opinion of these two games, based on my time playing the demos, without having played all the previous versions for the past 10 years is ridiculous. Now, my opinions don't mean as much as those of a veteran player, but I could also argue that my opinions aren't tainted by years of bias or expectations.

And just because I haven't played many footie video games, doesn't mean I don't have experience with other sports video games, such as hockey. I realize that hockey is a vastly different sport from football, but certain things, at least from a video game standpoint, can still carry over.

Also, not to sound conceited, but I also happen to be a fairly intelligent person. Don't underestimate the power of intelligence to overcome inexperience.

And finally, I wasn't trying to "score points" off you, as you say. I'm sorry if that's the impression you got.

ok so your telling me, you know nothing about footy games but by playing the demo for 20 or so matches (which by the way are 6 minutes long) you can switch onto full manual and win matches? You can do something that even experienced gamers are finding difficult?

no chance, i dont buy

 

[wallpaper_01]

lol i dont buy it eitha, ive played footie games since 1995 and im not on manual yet lmao!

That was Sensible world of soccer... Ahh the memories!

 

[thearsenal]

Sorry what?

Its got sod all to do with what people like or dont like its about next gen gaming! In no way, whether you prefer pes or not - you can say to me that they are the best footy games that konami have produced? Are you seriously kidding me or what?

i dont understand why you get so offended. I work in the multimedia industry, we do cd roms, websites quite a lot in fact. If the bosses think they can turn out the same product for the same profit they will. They will save development time which equals money.

Jeez.:erm:

1.it has got something to do about with what someone likes or not when you are forcing your own beliefs so strongly onto this thread


2. as I have said before, I feel they’ve had the core gameplay down from the beginning, and even though it would have been nice for some more noticeable improvements in 08 09, the solid basis has still been there. With the WE demo which I’ve played, along with many people praising the later codes even more, I think that Konami are going to make a fantastic game in pes 2010. that’s my opinion.

3. I;m not taking offence, it’s just the way you conduct your argument. It’s probably wrong for me to assume, but if I had to hazard a guess I would say that you’re a big fifa fan (fair enough), with the intention of purely coming on this forum to create controversy and slate pes. Dispute all you want, I might be wrong, but your giving off a very good impression that this is the case. And if this is case, I find myself asking why you need to resort to this? (can’t wait for the retaliation on this point)

4. granted, pes 2008 and 09 were too similar, and as I said before, it would have been nice to see some further improvements, but i have always loved the way Pes plays, and this year for me it is going to make much larger strides from what i’ve played and seen.


my point was that you seen determined to make your point final and accurate through the language you use when writing your posts. You need to understand that others might not agree with you, but you try to force your views on them because of it. thats all mate

 

[BloodyYank]

Sorry what?

Its got sod all to do with what people like or dont like its about next gen gaming! In no way, whether you prefer pes or not - you can say to me that they are the best footy games that konami have produced? Are you seriously kidding me or what?

i dont understand why you get so offended. I work in the multimedia industry, we do cd roms, websites quite a lot in fact. If the bosses think they can turn out the same product for the same profit they will. They will save development time which equals money.

Jeez.:erm:




ok so your telling me, you know nothing about footy games but by playing the demo for 20 or so matches (which by the way are 6 minutes long) you can switch onto full manual and win matches? You can do something that even experienced gamers are finding difficult?

no chance, i dont buy

I'm sorry if you don't buy it, but what would be the benefit of me making that up? To brag to a bunch of people whom I've never even met? I'm not some teenager (no offense to the teenagers on this site), man, I've got better things to do with my time.

And even if you don't believe that I've won FIFA matches on all manual settings, that hardly has anything to do with my main point. So go ahead and believe what you want. You've still done nothing to explain to me why FIFA gameplay is better than PES, or why it's more of a representation of the real sport.

Also, I'd like to know exactly what it was about the PES games of the previous generation (PES 6, specifically, seems to be the most favored) that was so much better than PES 2010, in terms of gameplay. Going by the knowledge that the demo is not final code, and things like control response times and other bugs have been ironed out in the final code, why does PES 2010 gameplay not stack up to the PS2 games of the past? I'm asking this as an honest question. Despite what you think, I honestly have never played any version of PES prior to the 2010 demo, and I'd like to know why you think it doesn't stack up to either FIFA 10 or the PES games of the past.

 

[thearsenal]

I'm sorry if you don't buy it, but what would be the benefit of me making that up? To brag to a bunch of people whom I've never even met? I'm not some teenager (no offense to the teenagers on this site), man, I've got better things to do with my time.

And even if you don't believe that I've won FIFA matches on all manual settings, that hardly has anything to do with my main point. So go ahead and believe what you want. You've still done nothing to explain to me why FIFA gameplay is better than PES, or why it's more of a representation of the real sport.

Also, I'd like to know exactly what it was about the PES games of the previous generation (PES 6, specifically, seems to be the most favored) that was so much better than PES 2010, in terms of gameplay. Going by the knowledge that the demo is not final code, and things like control response times and other bugs have been ironed out in the final code, why does PES 2010 gameplay not stack up to the PS2 games of the past? I'm asking this as an honest question. Despite what you think, I honestly have never played any version of PES prior to the 2010 demo, and I'd like to know why you think it doesn't stack up to either FIFA 10 or the PES games of the past.

Yank theres no point mate. this is becoming pointless and it's wasting our time. admittedly i've probably taken up too much space on this thread, so i'm gonna call it a day. laters

 

[matrx7]

FIFA is shit! Stop talking FIFA!!!!

Pro evo oh oh oh, pro evo oh oh oh!!! It's gonna be the mutts nuts!!!

 

[shaun7]

Why does everyone that says something against pes always says about the passing being assisted and the AI decides for you?
The answer is no. The direction is decided by you and by the footballer's passing ability. That's accurate enough for individuality.

 

[Gun_Runner]

Only read to page 3 in this but I've read the same things in 100 other threads.

Just thought I'd drop in a few things.

1. FIFA has come on so much in the last few years, the freedom of movement/dribbling etc you have is totally unmatched in PES.

2. Judging from the PES 2010 demo, the only good thing I got from it was the shooting.

C'mon, surely somebody will agree with me that the players' movement is ridiculous? It looks as if they're on rails & can only turn in 90 degree angles...plus the trick stick FIFA has is very useful.

 

[shaun7]

^But wait a minute let's be fair.

1. FIFA has come on so much in the last few years, the freedom of movement/dribbling etc you have is totally unmatched in PES

.
But in fifa the defenders can take the ball easily so the trick stick isn't as awesome as you say it is. But it is great though I expected players like messi to be able to keep the ball more. At least in pes you can keep the ball (the we demo not pes one) and pes always keeps you thinking as to who you're gonna pass the ball. Where in fifa, I would know when I am gonna score. But I agree that fifa's freedom is great.

2. Judging from the PES 2010 demo, the only good thing I got from it was the shooting.

Individuality, player likeness, different play for every team. Doesn't that mean anything? That defines football aswell.
I am trying to be fair now.


Oh and player movement in pes can be better I agree on that. But the silders actually work. Also, the player movement is better in the we demo than in pes demo. But yeah that needs to be better aswell. Also, they don't turn 90 degrees in the we demo for sure. That was in pes 09. Players who do it in we demo are messi and other dribblers. And the 360 movement is felt much better in the we demo than in the pes demo.

 

[Ant1975]

Ok well obviously we cant discuss this without people complaining they are being forced upon so i'll but out.

Must have missed the bits about wanting two good games as opposed to one. I just want a game worthy of next gen.

Enjoy pes10, you reap what you sow.

And Gun runner i wouldnt bother, bunch of sensitive souls in here who will listen as long as your views fit with theirs for the most part.

ttfn

 

[marcgiu]

^But wait a minute let's be fair.
.
But in fifa the defenders can take the ball easily so the trick stick isn't as awesome as you say it is. But it is great though I expected players like messi to be able to keep the ball more. At least in pes you can keep the ball (the we demo not pes one) and pes always keeps you thinking as to who you're gonna pass the ball. Where in fifa, I would know when I am gonna score. But I agree that fifa's freedom is great.


Individuality, player likeness, different play for every team. Doesn't that mean anything? That defines football aswell.
I am trying to be fair now.


Oh and player movement in pes can be better I agree on that. But the silders actually work. Also, the player movement is better in the we demo than in pes demo. But yeah that needs to be better aswell. Also, they don't turn 90 degrees in the we demo for sure. That was in pes 09. Players who do it in we demo are messi and other dribblers. And the 360 movement is felt much better in the we demo than in the pes demo.

I think that with regard the trickstick and dribbling - you can tell online who is taking time to master FIFA and those who don't. Good players can hold the ball, attack the space and go past players. This was one the key strengths from PES in the past - It rewarded the time you put into it