I'm afraid to say..

[LOL-ness]

Ok apologies if it came off as bashing you that wasnt intended, but even back on the PS2 the analogue registered up to 360 degree movement with the ability to accelerate and slow down (a good example of this implemented well in a modern game is GTA4 where you can go from walking to jogging gently and smoothly just with the stick)
The buttons even back then registered 365 different pressure settings...

The fact that to this day devs like Konami still aren't utilising this technology tells its own story. Probably a big reason is that PES still supports regular DPAD movement as do many games and if you start creating fancing effects using the analogue stick it then precludes those who use D-PAD.

Amongst his rather long posts that one of the points Amateur is getting at, that behind all the new stuff the game is still based on an old engine which allows you to play using a regular DPAD and therefor its no wonder the implementation/execution is confused and irregular.

You know an overwhelming sense I get from PES11 is that often the game is fighting with itself, the newer features jostling with the old core game and as the saying goes, football is the loser (Brian)

I see, that clears a lot of things up.

Well, maybe it's because the player can use both the D-pad and the analogue stick when playing PES 2011, maybe that's the problem? It'd be great if Konami can give up the D-pad controls for PES 2012 (and instead use the D-pad to control team tactics), and fully utilise the analogue stick for player movement only.

 

[Avelives]

I see, that clears a lot of things up.

Well, maybe it's because the player can use both the D-pad and the analogue stick when playing PES 2011, maybe that's the problem? It'd be great if Konami can give up the D-pad controls for PES 2012 (and instead use the D-pad to control team tactics), and fully utilise the analogue stick for player movement only.

I believe they said they are ditching the DPAD for the next version (I might be wrong) and it definately should help. I mean how 'free' is the game when you can win just as easily using an 8 direction pad as the analogue stick? It does make you wonder sometimes...

To go back to the GTA4 example, that did a similar thing and only support analogue movement now, dpad fulfills other functions completely. Like you say attaching strategies to the DPAD would be an awesome addition and do much better than the current select button crap which is frankly mind bogglingly bad

 

[Amateur]

Amateur, you probably have not taken into account how much time developers need to come up with a new engine. Because PES is an annually renewed titled as opposed to DLC-centric or generation-centric titles, Konami is probably forced, due to time constrains, to make do with an old engine and just pile improvements onto it and hope it'll stay competitive.

Perhaps the easiest thing to do is for Sony to improve their controllers instead? To my knowledge, the PS3 analogue stick doesn't seem to do acceleration based on how fast and how far you move the stick, so if Sony were to improve on that, Konami may be able to pick up on that improvement and make it so that players move according to how fast and how far the player moves the stick?

I appreciate your approach, as you seem more interested in having a conversation, as opposed to mindless insults.

Having said that, I think the PS3 controls are good enough the way they are, speed should not be determined by the left analogue stick; the left analogue stick should affect direction, and an entirely different button should affect the speed and the distance covered with the ball.

The pressure sensitive R2 button could be the heartbeat of dribbling: the four face buttons could determine the distance of different type of skills each different skill attached to a particular button; the pressure sensitive R2 button could determine the speed of the dribble; and the left analogue stick could affect the direction of the dribble.

Without the pressure sensitive R2 button; the left analogue stick could offer countless of dribbling skills, if it was impossible to cover spaces of over 50 feet of distance without the assistance of a sprint button; because it would then be possible to use the left analogue stick to affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball without necessarily affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

The left analogue stick would function one way with the assistance of the sprint button, and another way without the assistance of the sprint button.

Simply put, the speed and distance covered with the ball needs to be determined by shoulder buttons, not by the left analogue stick; the left analogue stick should not affect nor determine the distance covered with the ball without the assistance of a sprint button.

If the left analogue stick determines the direction in which you run and dribble with the ball as well as the distance covered with he ball; this is the passing equivalent of the left analogue stick determining both the direction and the power of the pass: it is a massive restriction.

The problem is not the controls, the controls have enough buttons, the problem is how EA Sports and Konami use the controls: the left analogue stick functions in year 2010, the same way it functioned in year 1998.

That's not a very good statistic; EA Sports and Konami are making cheap updates on a yearly basis, nothing more and nothing less.

This is why FIFA has barely changed since FIFA09, and also why PES is now turning into FIFA.

 

[LOL-ness]

The pressure sensitive R2 button could be the heartbeat of dribbling: the four face buttons could determine the distance of different type of skills each different skill attached to a particular button; the pressure sensitive R2 button could determine the speed of the dribble; and the left analogue stick could affect the direction of the dribble.

Without the pressure sensitive R2 button; the left analogue stick could offer countless of dribbling skills, if it was impossible to cover spaces of over 50 feet of distance without the assistance of a sprint button; because it would then be possible to use the left analogue stick to affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball without necessarily affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

The left analogue stick would function one way with the assistance of the sprint button, and another way without the assistance of the sprint button.

Wow, that's a lot of text and it managed to confuse the heck out of me. So let me get this straight:

Your idea:
R2 is dribble, R1 is sprint, Left analogue stick only controls player direction.

Pressing R2 + Any of the "face buttons" with analogue stick in the position you want your player to go (I am assuming that this means Triangle, Circle, Square and Cross) will activate a dribbling skill assigned to the "face buttons". The pressure on R2 determines the distance covered by that dribbling skill.

Assuming what I said above is what I've correctly understood, this will mean that my right hand middle finger, right hand thumb and left hand thumb will be be preoccupied when doing a dribbling skill move, not to mention that my right hand index finger will probably also be occupied if I am activating that skill at a run. That makes 4 fingers. Not to mention that I'll need close control on my right hand middle finger to pull it off.

For me, I think that's very difficult to pull off, unless each of my 10 fingers have a brain of their own, because I am guaranteed to twist my fingers using this control scheme.

Ultimately, maybe the best control is the simplest control? Utilising the left analogue stick's acceleration function could work here, with the R1 button providing the "sprint" controls for a wider selection of speed options. I still don't see why you want to assign a separate dribble button.

 

[Amateur]

Wow, that's a lot of text and it managed to confuse the heck out of me. So let me get this straight:

Your idea:
R2 is dribble, R1 is sprint, Left analogue stick only controls player direction.

Pressing R2 + Any of the "face buttons" with analogue stick in the position you want your player to go (I am assuming that this means Triangle, Circle, Square and Cross) will activate a dribbling skill assigned to the "face buttons". The pressure on R2 determines the distance covered by that dribbling skill.

Assuming what I said above is what I've correctly understood, this will mean that my right hand middle finger, right hand thumb and left hand thumb will be be preoccupied when doing a dribbling skill move, not to mention that my right hand index finger will probably also be occupied if I am activating that skill at a run. That makes 4 fingers. Not to mention that I'll need close control on my right hand middle finger to pull it off.

For me, I think that's very difficult to pull off, unless each of my 10 fingers have a brain of their own, because I am guaranteed to twist my fingers using this control scheme.

Ultimately, maybe the best control is the simplest control? Utilising the left analogue stick's acceleration function could work here, with the R1 button providing the "sprint" controls for a wider selection of speed options. I still don't see why you want to assign a separate dribble button.

Yes you understood correctly, this is why the R2 dribbling system is disposable, not necessary; though if the pressure sensitive R2 button does not affect the speed, it would not be that complicated.

Above all, the priority is an accessible and intuitive and yet precise dribbling system. This is how I would do it.

The left analogue stick would determine both: the direction in which you dribble with the ball and the direction in which you run with the ball.

For example, without the assistance of the sprint button, you direct the left analogue stick towards the left: this will produce a certain type of animation, that will make it look as though the ball carrier could go either to the right or to the left.

In other words, this animation will affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball, but without affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

We currently cannot do this, because the slightest touch on the left analogue stick, with or without the assistance of a sprint button, will always affect the direction in which you run with the ball; this concept restricts the amount of dribbling animations which can be implemented into the left analogue stick, as well as the animations which can be implemented into the d-pad.

You could have thousands upon thousands of potential dribbling animations, but the animations would never fit into the left analogue stick due to the mentioned restriction: the left analogue stick has one dimension to it, affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

So again, same example, if you direct the left analogue stick towards the left (west), without the assistance of a sprint button: this will produce a certain type of animation, that will make it look as though the ball carrier could go either to the right or to the left.

In other words, this animation will affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball, but without affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

How far you direct the left analogue stick towards the left (west), will produce slight differences in the dribbling animations; moving the left analogue stick from left (west) to right (east) will produce a more pronounced change in the dribbling animations; basically, disguising your intentions.

If you direct the left analogue stick towards the right (east), this will produce the type of animation which will make it look as though you can go either towards the right or towards the left; thus forcing the defender into guessing, and ultimately, disguising your intention.

Picture it similar to the current upper body feints that you can do with the right analogue stick.... but attached to the left analogue stick.... and functioning in a more manual and organic manner, a system that provides countless of variations by moving the left analogue stick without the assistance of the R1 sprint button.

With the assistance of the sprint button, the left analogue stick will determine the direction in which you run with the ball.

To this left analogue stick dribbling system, a deeper dribbling system could be added by making better use of the pressure sensitive R2 button.

For instance, by holding the R2 button + holding or tapping the (x) button: could do the very same thing that the R2 button does in PES11.

And you make better use of the R2 button, because you can use the other three face buttons (face buttons, the four buttons which are used for passing and shooting the ball) for different type of dribbling skills.

The most important thing is to have an accessible, intuitive, and precise dribbling system; in order to have that, the left analogue stick cannot determine the direction in which you run with the ball, the distance covered with the ball, as well as the direction in which you dribble with the ball.

The left analogue stick should not determine or affect three different dimensions or facets of dribbling, without the assistance of another button.




On paper,

1st -- Running towards the north, releasing the SPRINT button, and then directing the left analogue stick; which will subsequently produce subtle dribbling animations or subtle feint animations, without affecting the direction in which you run or accelerate with the ball.

2nd -- WITHOUT the assistance of a SPRINT button, direct the left analogue stick backwards; in this case, towards the south, because you are currently running towards the north.

3th -- by directing the left analogue towards the south, whilst you run towards the north: depending on how you direct the left analogue stick, this will produce the type of dribbling animations that will make it look as if your intention is to run forwards when your real intention is to run backwards.

4th -- PRECISION TOUCH: direct the left analogue backwards + tap the L1 sprint button or R1 sprint button, this will produce a sudden backwards movement... which was your actual intention despite the impression produced by the dribbling feints.

5th -- the PRECISION TOUCH will affect the direction in which you run, and will be performed by directing the left analogue stick WITH the assistance of a SPRINT button; the BUILD-UP DRIBBLING which was produced by directing the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of a SPRINT button, produced the animations or the link, required to make that sudden backwards movement.

6th -- basically, the COMPUTER already knows your intention, you are telling the COMPUTER what you intend to do BEFORE actually doing it... and the COMPUTER responds to your command, by producing the physics which will make it possible to run or dribble in multiple directions; therefore, forcing the opponent into guessing, hence the art and the value of disguising your intention.

I have posted a couple of real life examples, so that you get a better idea of what I'm talking about. Before watching the footage, you should read the brief explanation for each example, so that you get a vague idea of what you will see and also where I'm coming from.

http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/17156.html

 

[Avelives]

Ultimately, maybe the best control is the simplest control? Utilising the left analogue stick's acceleration function could work here, with the R1 button providing the "sprint" controls for a wider selection of speed options. I still don't see why you want to assign a separate dribble button.

Id agree with that personally. Id also limit sprint to 'speed burst' so it gave a short increase but couldn't be held down and couldn't be spammed. That way you elminate speed whores and speed becomes a useful tool for beating close marking or gaining a bit of space but nothing more, like you say how hard and fast you push left stick should determine who quickly you run and accelerate. Its very simple and bang up to date.

DPAD would be for strategies, L1 for speed boost, R1 for player swapping, L2 + R2 could be for other functions like special tricks and special types of pass and shot. Also button senstivity should be used if I gently press X it should slowly fill the power bar, slam it down and the bar should almost insta fill. It would slow the game down again make it more considered and skillful and not a button spam fest for speed whores.

 

[Amateur]

Id agree with that personally. Id also limit sprint to 'speed burst' so it gave a short increase but couldn't be held down and couldn't be spammed. That way you elminate speed whores and speed becomes a useful tool for beating close marking or gaining a bit of space but nothing more, like you say how hard and fast you push left stick should determine who quickly you run and accelerate. Its very simple and bang up to date.

DPAD would be for strategies, L1 for speed boost, R1 for player swapping, L2 + R2 could be for other functions like special tricks and special types of pass and shot. Also button senstivity should be used if I gently press X it should slowly fill the power bar, slam it down and the bar should almost insta fill. It would slow the game down again make it more considered and skillful and not a button spam fest for speed whores.

I agree, simplicity above everything; however, what the game needs is an accessible and yet precise and responsive dribbling system.

The idea of making it impossible to cover spaces of over 50 feet of distance without the assistance of a sprint button; and the idea of giving more precision to the defender; would fix the speed-abusing issue.

Because a defender would easily contain a player whom is just running with the ball without doing any build-up dribbling.

Basically, making more difficult to run past defenders, but compensating it by giving more precision and more responsiveness to the user.

In PES11, it is more difficult to run past four defenders with Lio Messo; however, the left analogue stick still functions the same way.... automatically, you don't have to measure dribbling.

Like passing; we need to at least have independent control over the direction of dribbling, and the the distance of dribbling: direction should be attached to the left analogue stick, and distance should be attached to an entirely different button.

That would be the perfect balance between too simple and too complicated, in my opinion.

But if the distance and direction of dribbling are both determined by the left analogue stick, that's a massive dribbling restriction; by the same logic, if the left analogue stick determined the direction of the pass as well as the power of the pass, that would be a massive passing restriction.

What the game needs the most is a dribbling and man-marking system that makes sense when added to the new passing system.

 

[klashman]

As usual Amatuer replies with a whole load of crap.

Do you really think by writing so much crap it makes you seem mature in any way or makes your opinions respectable? No your a nutter who's just pissed he can't play PES 2011 well.

I picked this out from that wall of shite you have just written!

In PES11, it is more difficult to run past four defenders with Lio Messo; however, the left analogue stick still functions the same way.... automatically, you don't have to measure dribbling.

It barely requires any skills and it barely has any variations, it is automatic and restrictive, you do not use the skills, the skills work automatically: making it harder to dribble with Lio Messi, making it harder to run past a defender -- does not changes the fact that the STATS which are attached to the left analogue stick work automatically because the left analogue stick functions the same way it functioned 12 years ago.

Here's a video from me of PES 2011! He's Messi, the guy you says it's hard to beat players with beating 4 players in one dribble segment!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkoLTA_vhxo

Also showing your foolish in your assumptions are and showing you if your are to advise konami to improve the game. It's always best to 'understand how the game works and play it to the death'. THEN only after, THEN You will understand what the flaws truly are and what needs improving.

Now here with Iniesta, look at some of the feints in this video (notice how i show video evidence, rather than just talk crap )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmh8svKq_I

watch at 0:09 to 0:11, i can do that JUST from using the LEFT STICK!

Yes, unlike your ignorant assumptions that PES 2011 uses the old, 'on rails' dribbling system. PES uses a brand new, 'Pressure sensitive system'! Where you can drop the shoulder with just subtle movements of the left stick.

Basically on PES 2011 when you move the the left sick, all you move is the player, at all times! What the game does is using the attributes it's simulates what foot he prominently dribbles with, what foot he prominently uses to turn depending on his weak foot accuracy etc.., depending how good his technique is and dribble accuracy how much control he has over the ball when sprinting with it or slow dribbling etc..

The old system is when you have the ball, the player and ball is stuck together magnetically and your essentially on a rail. The ball never leaves your foot when you turn! It's stuck to you as an entity! FIFA despite it's fancy animations still uses this old system where as PES has moved on to new heights!

Did you know about this amatuer, NO! Why would you when all you do is spam balls with Xavi?

So you can write another nonsensical essay with no point whatsoever but you need to face the truth, you need help!

 

[Ultimate777]

As usual Amatuer replies with a whole load of crap.

Do you really think by writing so much crap it makes you seem mature in any way or makes your opinions respectable? No your a nutter who's just pissed he can't play PES 2011 well.

I picked this out from that wall of shite you have just written!





Here's a video from me of PES 2011! He's Messi, the guy you says it's hard to beat players with beating 4 players in one dribble segment!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkoLTA_vhxo

Also showing your foolish in your assumptions are and showing you if your are to advise konami to improve the game. It's always best to 'understand how the game works and play it to the death'. THEN only after, THEN You will understand what the flaws truly are and what needs improving.

Now here with Iniesta, look at some of the feints in this video (notice how i show video evidence, rather than just talk crap )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmh8svKq_I

watch at 0:09 to 0:11, i can do that JUST from using the LEFT STICK!

Yes, unlike your ignorant assumptions that PES 2011 uses the old, 'on rails' dribbling system. PES uses a brand new, 'Pressure sensitive system'! Where you can drop the shoulder with just subtle movements of the left stick.

Basically on PES 2011 when you move the the left sick, all you move is the player, at all times! What the game does is using the attributes it's simulates what foot he prominently dribbles with, what foot he prominently uses to turn depending on his weak foot accuracy etc.., depending how good his technique is and dribble accuracy how much control he has over the ball when sprinting with it or slow dribbling etc..

The old system is when you have the ball, the player and ball is stuck together magnetically and your essentially on a rail. The ball never leaves your foot when you turn! It's stuck to you as an entity! FIFA despite it's fancy animations still uses this old system where as PES has moved on to new heights!

Did you know about this amatuer, NO! Why would you when all you do is spam balls with Xavi?

So you can write another nonsensical essay with no point whatsoever but you need to face the truth, you need help!

Excellent post brother

I'm glad you understand amateur is a sick individual who ruins this forum. This is a guy who is also obessed with wenb and adam so much that he sits and listens to their weekly podcasts only to state how much he loaths them

It's just unbelievable at times reading the crap he comes out with and then when you reply he ignores your post or just acts like a victim

 

[S-D-P]

Very true Klashman regarding the dribbling, the more subtle you are when using the analog the more varied your movements are, player individuality has been taken to a new level this year. Using the analog with close control is immense, the argument about not being able to pull away from defenders is redundant if you know how to get the best from the controls, nice video by the way.

 

[Amateur]

As usual Amatuer replies with a whole load of crap.

Do you really think by writing so much crap it makes you seem mature in any way or makes your opinions respectable? No your a nutter who's just pissed he can't play PES 2011 well.

I picked this out from that wall of shite you have just written!





Here's a video from me of PES 2011! He's Messi, the guy you says it's hard to beat players with beating 4 players in one dribble segment!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkoLTA_vhxo

Also showing your foolish in your assumptions are and showing you if your are to advise konami to improve the game. It's always best to 'understand how the game works and play it to the death'. THEN only after, THEN You will understand what the flaws truly are and what needs improving.

Now here with Iniesta, look at some of the feints in this video (notice how i show video evidence, rather than just talk crap )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmh8svKq_I

watch at 0:09 to 0:11, i can do that JUST from using the LEFT STICK!

Yes, unlike your ignorant assumptions that PES 2011 uses the old, 'on rails' dribbling system. PES uses a brand new, 'Pressure sensitive system'! Where you can drop the shoulder with just subtle movements of the left stick.

Basically on PES 2011 when you move the the left sick, all you move is the player, at all times! What the game does is using the attributes it's simulates what foot he prominently dribbles with, what foot he prominently uses to turn depending on his weak foot accuracy etc.., depending how good his technique is and dribble accuracy how much control he has over the ball when sprinting with it or slow dribbling etc..

The old system is when you have the ball, the player and ball is stuck together magnetically and your essentially on a rail. The ball never leaves your foot when you turn! It's stuck to you as an entity! FIFA despite it's fancy animations still uses this old system where as PES has moved on to new heights!

Did you know about this amatuer, NO! Why would you when all you do is spam balls with Xavi?

So you can write another nonsensical essay with no point whatsoever but you need to face the truth, you need help!

Here is where your whole argument goes to shit, your argument revolves around your opinion, you have failed to question the important FACT: it is impossible to affect the direction and distance of DRIBBLING with the ball, without also affecting the direction and distance in which you RUN with the ball.

Whys is that impossible? Because the left analogue stick works in year 2010, the same way it worked in year 1998; in other words, PES11 and FIFA11 are both outdated.

Here is my opinion regarding the PES11 dribbling system: I know how to use the new dribbling system, and I say it is outdated and restrictive.

Here is my argument regarding the PES11 dribbling system: the direction in which you dribble with the ball, and the distance covered with the ball, are different dimensions or facets of dribbling which are attached to the same button: the left analogue stick.

Can you imagine the direction of the pass and the power of the pass, different dimensions or facets of passing the ball, attached to the left analogue stick? Can you not see why having different dimensions or facets attached to the same button.... is such a massive restriction?

If you cannot see why that is such a massive restriction.... then perhaps you should pay more attention to that video-clip that you posted, because that video-clip is a great example of why the dribbling system is so dumb and stupid.

I have been using the left analogue stick since the analogue stick came to existence, as far as I can recall, with Super Mario on the N64; I know how to be subtle with the left analogue stick.

The fact is, like it or not, that if the left analogue stick determines both the direction in which you run with the ball, as well as the distance covered with the ball: this is a massive restriction, because the amount of dribbling animations which can be implemented into the left analogue stick, is restricted by the fact that you cannot affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball without also affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

It is fairly simple, I don't know why you felt the need of showing me that YouTube video-clip which is in fact a great demonstration of just how repetitive and predictable and restrictive everything is.

In addition, how do you man-mark the ball carrier? Seems to me like Andres Iniesta is doing the same identical bullshit, which is easy to predict, and yet the defender cannot take the ball from him.... boring, predictable, dumb, automatic, insubstantial, etc.

You know how I always know what the opponent will do with the ball?

Because the opponent cannot affect the direction in which he dribbles or feints with the ball without also affecting the direction in which he runs with the ball as well as the distance covered with the ball...

I ALWAYS know what the ball carrier will do with the ball because his intentions are always in action; why can I not prevent it from happening even though it is blatantly obvious?

Because the defender does not responds to my thoughts due to the simple FACT that it is impossible to actually measure and time something as basic as TACKLING for the ball.

Why do I not feel entertained by the game?

Because you cannot measure something as basic as tackling for the ball; because you cannot affect the direction and distance in which you dribble or feint with the ball without also affecting the distance covered with the ball as well as the direction in which you run with the ball.

The execution in terms of the actual dribbling animations that are produced by the left analogue stick and the right analogue stick, and the execution in terms of how you do it; I don't like it.

The execution in terms of the actual man-marking animations that are produced by the left analogue stick, and the execution in terms of how you do it by holding the left analogue stick backwards whilst holding the (x) button: I don't like it, it feels systematic and lacking precision, it does not feel organic nor responsive nor intuitive enough.

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=81478 -- one of the many examples of complains regarding dribbling tricks that the new defensive system cannot handle as well as one would expect.

How can I make this perfectly clear: I feel restricted by a computer, everything feels scripted, restricted or chained by some intangible but relevant factor; after so many years of the same bullshit, I am not entertained by the same concept anymore.

I think it is a dribbling and man-marking system that lacks substance, variety, depth, structure, and consistency; designed for the masses, just lke FIFA11 is.

The STATS work automatically, because the left analogue stick is restricted by an automatic concept: R2 button, and R1 sprint button, and directing the left analogue stick.... any noob can do that, it's easy and automatic.

Direct the left analogue stick towards the west, without the assistance of a sprint button, and the player will run towards the left; in a stationary stance, direct the left analogue stick without the assistance of a sprint button, and this will not affect the direction of dribbling without affecting the distance covered with the ball.... because the left analogue stick will automatically trigger running animations that will move you from one space into another space.

How accurate can you really be without moving from one space into another?

This is why tackling is automatic and restrictive, because you cannot affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball without also affecting the distance covered with the ball, because the left analogue stick ALWAYS (with or without the assistance of a sprint button) affects the distance covered with the ball.

So how accurate can you be without affecting the distance covered with the ball?

Hey I just covered a space of 15 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of a sprint button.... I actually ran without the assistance of a running button.... any noob can do it, it's easy and automatic, you can do it without actually thinking about it, because it is automatic.

The difficulty is restricted and determined by how the left analogue stick functions; which is why the game still is very scripted regardless of the so-called "freedom" that certain people are boasting about.

The fact that some people are better than others, does not changes the fact that the left analogue stick revolves around an outdated concept; this where you should acknowledge the difference between fact and opinion.

You think this dribbling system is vey good; yet I think it is very restrictive and outdated: the fact remains the same.

How can you criticize me for formulating my own opinion regarding the discussed fact?

The FIFA right analogue stick gimmicks, requires more precision and ability, the common noob does not knows how to use them properly; the FIFA right analogue stick dribbling tricks are automatic and repetitive in terms of the actual animations or physics, but the execution in terms of how you do it is organic and intuitive.

I respect your opinion, but I do not respect your argument: your argument is blatantly redundant, because you are arguing against a FACT: the left analogue stick determines the direction in which you run and dribble with the ball as well as the distance covered with the ball.... the mentioned FACT is a massive restriction.

Whether you like it or not, you cannot possibly affect what is, after all, a fact. Your video-clip is EVIDENCE of this FACT.

In my opinion, the new dribbling system is outdated as well as dumb, very restrictive and automatic; you cannot affect the direction and distance in which you dribble with the ball without also affecting the direction in which you run with the ball; you cannot affect the direction and distance of the tackle without also affecting the direction in which you run without the ball: FACT.

In any case, I thank you for providing EVIDENCE of the mentioned FACT; now let me show you what you cannot do in PES11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxFoO8CXoU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYHmMUBGF9U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkQ_x1lapHI

Do you see the many things you can do with the ball without affecting the distance covered with the ball? nor affecting the direction in which you run with the ball?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKmh8svKq_I

Can you see the many things you cannot do with the ball.... because the left analogue stick aslways affects and determines the distance covered with the ball? as well as the direction in which you run with the ball?

Why do you think we have a new passing system, where the direction of the pass is determined by the left analogue stick, and the power of the pass is determined by an entirely different button?

Do I really think by writing so much crap it makes me seem mature in any way or makes my opinions respectable?

Yes, because unlike you, I understand and I respect your opinion.... and that makes me a lot more mature and objective than you, because I am talking about something that I respect and understand.

Like I said a while ago, I respect your opinion, but I think your argument is pathetic and embarrassing.

A shame you cannot distinguish the obvious difference between a fact and an opinion, and a shame you çriticize my argument without actually understanding it; and a shame you attack me for having an opinion.

All things considered, you have gained nothing from this argument, because you do not respect me nor do you understand my argument or point of view; you just don't like my opinion, and that's all you have gained from this.... absolutely nothing.



PS -- should I post the rainbow-flick-goals as evidence of how "realistic" the new dribbling system is?

 

[Avelives]

If its any use to you I totally understand your point, a simpler example to use (as people seem to misunderstand you) is you cannot currently do a simple thing like backing up with the ball what most people regard as classic centre forward hold up play, thats currently impossible.

Sure theres a brief glimpse of it when receiving lofted passes but its an automatic animation once the ball goes live (on the floor) you must move with it or have it stolen, another good example similar to that is you cannot shield the ball on the spot, basically unless you moving you are considered prone almost, and are easily dispossesed which is utterly unrealistic.

I still think while comprehensive your system is a tad complex though and most people would really struggle to adapt to it.

 

[bestpesever]

that figo videos i do that shit with just left stick and r1 sprint button.left stickleft right+r1etc.u need to play game more than 3 days.

u cant have one stick for one leg one for left leg etc.one for ball/.where is then ball control.l.its gonna be soo loose..
i know whats gonna happen next year..u gonna have 150000 animations and u dont gonna know where and wtf u doing on pitch.like now that back leg pass etc..too slooow...stuck in animation?
konami bring here 100000600000 animation so i dont know what my player do on the pitch,whats is hes next move?where is skill there?

imortant is LEFT STICK RESPONSE AND R1 so u can conttrol every move with ur skill reflexes..attacker defender balance.
they need to balance moves this year to better respond.and work a lot on AI.

 

[Sminky]

Those rainbow flicks are ridiculous, some many people use them on MLO.

 

[LOL-ness]

Still, I think Konami should phase out the D-pad by PES 2012 because I think hardly any players use it anymore due to the advances made in PES 2011? Maybe Konami can finally fully exploit the analogue stick after that.

@Amateur: The control scheme you propose was very complex and still a bit fiddly with a lot of button pressing and precision control required for multiple fingers, most of which I probably can't do. I think something simple would work wonders (Not to say your scheme is bad, but perhaps it's beyond what a player/controller pairing can do effectively?).

 

[klashman]

Still, I think Konami should phase out the D-pad by PES 2012 because I think hardly any players use it anymore due to the advances made in PES 2011? Maybe Konami can finally fully exploit the analogue stick after that.
.

I dunno I'd like to see full analog control but there are SO many people who still use the d-pad!

Infact only one guy i know dosen't use it, even when i play FIFA my friends change the controls so they play FIFA using the d-pad to move players

 

[LOL-ness]

I dunno I'd like to see full analog control but there are SO many people who still use the d-pad!

Infact only one guy i know dosen't use it, even when i play FIFA my friends change the controls so they play FIFA using the d-pad to move players

Really? I play PES on the PC, and I used to be fine with the arrow keys (i.e. D-pad) all the way up to PES 2010. But in PES 2011, I simply can't control the players to go in the direction I want him to go in (he would only turn in any of the standard 8 directions with no smooth transition in between). I was forced to switch to a gamepad, and even then I wasn't able to control the player very well with the D-pad.

In the end I opted to get used to the left stick and I immediately noticed my players are turning in more directions (transitions are smooth and I can do very complicated runs which I previously couldn't do with the keyboard), so I ended up sticking with it.

 

[klashman]

Really? I play PES on the PC, and I used to be fine with the arrow keys (i.e. D-pad) all the way up to PES 2010. But in PES 2011, I simply can't control the players to go in the direction I want him to go in (he would only turn in any of the standard 8 directions with no smooth transition in between). I was forced to switch to a gamepad, and even then I wasn't able to control the player very well with the D-pad.

In the end I opted to get used to the left stick and I immediately noticed my players are turning in more directions (transitions are smooth and I can do very complicated runs which I previously couldn't do with the keyboard), so I ended up sticking with it.

I feel the same i feel i control players far better with the analog stick, but everyone's different.

I know some people who still have to use triangle for sprint like FIFA back in the late 90's :w00t

 

[klashman]

Here is where your whole argument goes to shit, your argument revolves around your opinion, you have failed to question the important FACT: it is impossible to affect the direction and distance of DRIBBLING with the ball, without also affecting the direction and distance in which you RUN with the ball.

"Never Underestimate the Predictability of Stupidity"

I warned you all this guy is mad and he's once again proved me right!

What did i say, he'll post another essay, and there you go.

I mean, has this fool ever stopped to think that we are in the year 2010 soon to be 2011, an NO we do not HAVE a super computer to make a 100% perfect total simulation.

How about you come back in the year 2035 maybe? maybe then we could have a perfect simulation but for now, if you weren't so removed from the world in that small basement or cave, where ever you reside! This is the best technology we have available.

have you forgotten than this game is built to be used with Xbox 360 technology, and if I'm not mistaken when was that console released?

hmmm

year 2005? Yes, so you REALLY believe a video game is capable of implemented that highly complex and confusing system you shouting for the game to have? I mean FIFA 11 and PES 2011 have pretty much hit the ceiling in terms for technology development for this generation of consoles so you believe that every game is crap because it dosen't meet you ridiculous unreasonable standards?

Get a life! Seriously, get out of that house of yours and do something with your life! PES 2011 is far from perfect, it's has very noticeable flaws thought the game but do i cry myself to sleep because it's not perfect?

There are so FAR more important things in life than football video games

Whys is that impossible? Because the left analogue stick works in year 2010, the same way it worked in year 1998; in other words, PES11 and FIFA11 are both outdated.

Ok so on FIFA 08 or ISS pro 98, try moving the player to do subtle feints like in PES 2011 without moving the ball? Really??

Here is my opinion regarding the PES11 dribbling system: I know how to use the new dribbling system, and I say it is outdated and restrictive.

Here is my argument regarding the PES11 dribbling system: the direction in which you dribble with the ball, and the distance covered with the ball, are different dimensions or facets of dribbling which are attached to the same button: the left analogue stick.

Can you imagine the direction of the pass and the power of the pass, different dimensions or facets of passing the ball, attached to the left analogue stick? Can you not see why having different dimensions or facets attached to the same button.... is such a massive restriction?

No, because you idea falls down on the simple problem that your going have a separate control to dictate how far away from you the ball travels when you move in one direction, not only makes it impossible to do those subtle feints you see from Iniesta in PES 2011 because the ball will be essentially magnetically tied to your foot, but it also means i can use a crap player with poor technique like Heskey, just constantly set him to use this close controls and yes, all the dribbling individuality goes out he fucking window.

So not only is you idea silly and un reasonable it's flawed in terms of simulation.

Did you idea also consider how the game is going to simulate how each player turns, how much control they have over the ball due to their stats depending on their stats, traits, movement style etc..

did you ever stopped to think just how HARD that shit would be to program. hell the Dribbling system they have now it's revolutionary enough for 2010!

or You just hate PES 2011, don't want to understand it, and you come up with bizarre and unreasonable proposals which are not workable and are to be looked at imo when well able be playing football sims using kinect or something.

If you cannot see why that is such a massive restriction.... then perhaps you should pay more attention to that video-clip that you posted, because that video-clip is a great example of why the dribbling system is so dumb and stupid.

I have been using the left analogue stick since the analogue stick came to existence, as far as I can recall, with Super Mario on the N64; I know how to be subtle with the left analogue stick.

But you said you can't beat a player with Messi on PES 2011! So i think you taking out of your arse.

The fact is, like it or not, that if the left analogue stick determines both the direction in which you run with the ball, as well as the distance covered with the ball:

YES I KNOW, WE ALL KNOW, YOU SAY IT ENOUGH, BUT YOU HAVE LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY AND YOU FORGET AT THE END OF THE DAY IT"S a VIDEO GAME!

this is a massive restriction, because the amount of dribbling animations which can be implemented into the left analogue stick, is restricted by the fact that you cannot affect the direction in which you dribble with the ball without also affecting the direction in which you run with the ball.

Let's add some sarcasm to put some perspective.

I think PES 2011 is highly unrealistic, i mean, were are playing a game where you press a trigger and a player on a screen instantly responds to your commands as if he's a robot. What whats is this rubbish, this is not realistic. You need to pay a player thousands of euros a week to get them to show up when you want and play how you want them to play, i mean, even then the STILL won't follow your every commend.


Seriously GET A GRIP! GET A LIFE! Someone ban this guy for his own good!

And that pretty much answers the rest of your crap. Apart from that i hate the rainbow flick, i pisses me right off when people do it online against be but since i learned how to defend against it, meh! Not everyone wants a realistic game so, just as they make it less effective for PES 2012 or in a patch I'll be fine!

 

[Amateur]

Still, I think Konami should phase out the D-pad by PES 2012 because I think hardly any players use it anymore due to the advances made in PES 2011? Maybe Konami can finally fully exploit the analogue stick after that.

@Amateur: The control scheme you propose was very complex and still a bit fiddly with a lot of button pressing and precision control required for multiple fingers, most of which I probably can't do. I think something simple would work wonders (Not to say your scheme is bad, but perhaps it's beyond what a player/controller pairing can do effectively?).

The left analogue stick is not really limited by the d-pad, the left analogue stick is limited by the fact that it ALWAYS affects the distance covered with the ball; which is why you need to move from one space to another, because you cannot dribble on-the-spot.

The d-pad issue has always been, that because the d-pad barely has a range of movement or depth, you need to implement the most essential or basic animations: running animations.

Unfortunately, this way of thinking has gone into the left analogue stick as well, because the left analogue stick only produces moving-from-the-spot animations or physics.

Adding more running animations into the left analogue stick will never make a massive or significant difference, this is why FIFA10 and FIFA11, despite the massive number of running animations; has it changed that much since FIFA09?

No, because essentially, the left analogue stick functions in FIFA11, the same way it functioned in FIFA98.

The only thing that will revolutionize the genre, will be if the left analogue stick functions in an entirely new way, creating new space on the left analogue stick: creating the space required to implement the non-running physics that we currently do not have.

Both PES11 and FIFA11 lack non-running animations, both games need a lot more non-running physics to serve as a LINK for the running animations.

That will be impossible to do if the left analogue stick continues functioning the same way; that is, permanently affecting the distance covered with the ball, as well as the direction in which you run with the ball.

Even if the d-pad is ditched, if the left analogue stick affects the distance covered with the ball without the assistance of a sprint button, this means that regardless of how pretty the game feels and looks: the core flaws will be the same.

Which is why, FIFA has not really moved forwards since FIFA09, the left analogue stick cannot handle anymore physics; EA Sports will eventually need to create new space on the left analogue stick, you can only do this by changing how it functions.

Adding more directions to the same concept, adding more running animations to the same concept: will never fix the core flaws of the concept.

If its any use to you I totally understand your point, a simpler example to use (as people seem to misunderstand you) is you cannot currently do a simple thing like backing up with the ball what most people regard as classic centre forward hold up play, thats currently impossible.

Sure theres a brief glimpse of it when receiving lofted passes but its an automatic animation once the ball goes live (on the floor) you must move with it or have it stolen, another good example similar to that is you cannot shield the ball on the spot, basically unless you moving you are considered prone almost, and are easily dispossesed which is utterly unrealistic.

I still think while comprehensive your system is a tad complex though and most people would really struggle to adapt to it.

You are one of the few objective and respectful members of PESGaming.

Having said that, I disagree with your opinion regarding the dribbling system that I have formulated; I think it is quite simple, just not as as simple nor as obvious as the dribbling system that PES11 and FIFA11 use.

It would be, in my opinion, simpler and a lot more precise than the current system.

Picture it like something similar to doing the body feints that you can currently do by holding the L1 + tapping the right analogue stick; but instead of a systematic and automatic procedure which produces the same identical pre-determined animation every single time....

The dribbling system that I propose is one where you can do body feints or on-the-spot dribbling, by releasing the sprint buttons (R1 long distance sprint, L1 short distance sprint) and directing the left analogue stick.

Unlike the repetitive right analogue stick system that PES11 uses, the system that I propose is one that is not repetitive: even the slightest of touches on the left analogue stick would produce subtle differences in terms of on-the-spot physics.

For instance, without the assistance of the sprint buttons, you direct the left analogue stick towards the north: this will not move you towards the north.... instead, this will produce or trigger on-the-spot physics which will make it look as though the player could go in more than one direction, thus confusing the opponent.

In other words, your intention is to run towards the north, once you use one of the sprint buttons; however, without the assistance of the sprint buttons, the left analogue stick will disguise your intention.... by touching one of the sprint buttons, the player will move towards the direction that the left analogue is facing.

How can you manually affect the on-the-spot physics without affecting the direction in which you intend to run?

By moving the left analogue stick forwards and backwards without changing the course of the direction; this forward-backward movement will produce slight or pronounced differences in terms of on-the-spot dribbling animations, but without affecting the direction in which you will run once you utilize the left analogue stick with the assistance of one of the sprint buttons.

Another way of manually affecting the on-the-spot physics without moving from the spot nor affecting the direction that you are facing, would be by moving the left analogue stick from left to right without the assistance of the sprint buttons; right to left, north to south, west to north, etc, each combo producing subtle or pronounced variations in terms of on-the-spot physics; left to right or right to left, would mirror the same set of on-the-spot physics.

And of course, the left to right, right to left, north to south, south to north, west to north, etc, procedure that I just explained: would directly affect the direction in which you run once you tap one of the sprint buttons.

There would also be clear differences; moving the left analogue stick from north to center, center to north, will produce a certain type of on-the-spot physics; on the other hand, moving the left analogue stick from north to west, west to north, would produce a different type of on-the-spot physics.

Other than this.

When you use the left analogue stick with the R2 button, it would work more or less like it currently does, albeit with some significant differences due to the vaster number of animations.

And when you use the left analogue stick with the L1 short distance sprint: affects the direction in which you run or the direction that you are facing, but barely affecting the distance covered with the ball.

The L1 short distance sprint, would work like a "power bar" for dribbling; meaning that the longer you hold it, before releasing it, the more it will affect the distance covered.

However, if you give it a quick tap and release, it will not affect the distance covered, it will only affect the direction that you are facing; if you hold it a little longer, it will affect the distance covered, but only slightly.

The L1 short distance sprint, would be designed so that you can change the direction that you are facing, without affecting the distance covered with the ball.

The power bar concept, would be to expand the usage of the L1 short distance sprint.

For instance, a quick tap and release will only affect the direction that you face, but without affecting the distance covered, or in other words, without producing moving-from-the-spot physics: it is possible for human beings to twist and turn on a determined spot, without moving from the mentioned spot.

On the other hand, if you hold the L1 button a little longer, this will affect the space between the player and the ball, therefore also affecting the distance covered.

For instance, if you fill the power bar to the fullest, the player will touch the ball forwards 5 feet in front of him, therefore creating a space of 5 feet of distance between the ball and the player.

On the other hand, if you release the L1 button when the power bar is half-full, the player will move the ball 3 feet in front of him.

This could then be used to temp defenders into "biting" into the challenge, by creating that little gap between the player and the ball; could also create that bit of space for passing or crossing the ball, etc.

The R1 long distance sprint, would be similar to the current R1 sprint button, it would always affect the distance covered, and it would always affect the direction in which you run with the ball.

The L1 button + R1 button: could produce an explosive sprint when starting your run from a stationary stance; this would add some much needed depth into running with the ball, since the R1 button is not deep enough for this type of specifics.

And since the left analogue stick will never affect the distance covered with the ball: how would you stop the ball movement or how do you stop running?

By releasing the left analogue stick and then tapping the L1 button (short distance sprint) -- will produce a sudden drop of all pace, suddenly shifting into a stationary stance.

Once in a stationary stance, the movement of the ball must be manually kick-started into life, by using one of the sprint buttons; otherwise, the left analogue stick will never move you from one space into another.

*only a few individuals should have the ability of accurate stationary dribbling and stationary shielding; the average player should not shield the ball like Xavi Hernandez or Roman Riquelme*

Since the left analogue stick would never affect the distance covered with the ball nor the speed at which the player runs with the ball: releasing the left analogue stick + tapping the face buttons.... could be an accessible and useful dribbling tool.

Releasing the left analogue stick + tapping the face buttons: pre-determined dribbling feints could be attached to each button, and each pre-determined animation could vary by using the same power bar concept which is used for passing the ball.

Also, can the use of the R1 button (long distance sprint) be expanded or increased, by releasing the left analogue stick + tapping or holding the R1 button? Another potential space for accessible dribbling tools.

As for decreasing speed,

The pressure sensitive R2 button could be used to decrease speed without going all the way into a stationary stance; the R2 button could also complement with the R1 button (which it currently does) and the L1 button.

Bottom Line,

All things considered, we have the L1 button, R1 button, and left analogue stick; the left analogue stick would function one way with the assistance of the L1 button (short distance sprint), another way with the assistance of the R1 button (long distance sprint), and another way without the assistance of the sprint buttons.

In my opinion, that is a lot simpler.... than being forced into holding the L1 button + directing the right analogue stick + then releasing the right analogue stick + moving the right thumb to the face buttons in order to pass or shot the ball.

Or systematic combos such as: holding the L2 + the right analogue stick + release the right analogue stick + direct the left analogue stick + move the right thumb to the face buttons....

In my opinion, it would be simpler to simply, release the sprint buttons and dribble on-the-spot by using the left analogue stick; it is simpler and more accessible, in my opinion.

Then there's always that extra space, by using the face buttons without the assistance of the left analogue stick, and by using the R1 button and the L1 button without the assistance of the left analogue stick.

And above all, there's the fact that there would be new space available on the left analogue stick.

The problem with the old Famicom system, is that the left analogue stick always affects the distance covered with the ball and the direction in which you run with the ball: due to the mentioned fact, it is impossible to implement non-running physics into the left analogue stick.

Which is why you need to move from one space into another, in order to shield the ball; because you cannot manually use the stats, you cannot manually shield the ball without moving from the spot.

You cannot give someone like Xavi Hernandez a lot of effective non-running animations; whilst at the same time, taking the average player, and giving him only a handful of ineffective non-running animations.

And you cannot do that, because you cannot implement non-running animations into the left analogue stick, due to how the left analogue stick functions.

Adding more directions to the same concept, adding more running animations to the same concept: will never fix the core flaws of the concept.

By changing how the left analogue stick works, you can create new space for different type of physics; to date, the left analogue stick always produces running-from-the-spot physics, which is a fact that you admitted yourself.

Anyways, do you have something simpler in mind?