If Konami Can Implement What Is In The Press Release......

[RAMAXWY]

please, FIFA is BAD!!!

I know PES has its issues since the next gen consoles but in my opinion FIFA still is the worse of the 2.
the online makes it much more popular because that's were gaming is going now, and that is reflected in the sales numbers but gameplay wise i think its SHIT.

 

[Tech_Skill]

please, FIFA is BAD!!!

I know PES has its issues since the next gen consoles but in my opinion FIFA still is the worse of the 2.
the online makes it much more popular because that's were gaming is going now, and that is reflected in the sales numbers but gameplay wise i think its SHIT.

I disagree, but lets see what ea come up with on wedsnesday, there are rumours that this years shit is revolutionary, but to be honest, ea say one thing and then when you play the game its all the same, i still expect them to make the better game this year, but if they dont sort out the individuality and the CPU AI, its not out of the question that I choose pes 2011.

 

[Jess C]

Some interesting points made here.

Im not sure today's football games are designed to be played for long periods such as 45 min halves for example. The reason i say that is, i wonder if there are enough variables in the modern video games of today.

- The CPU AI attacks are repeatative
- Not enough player individuality in either game (fifa's is shit and pes's is overrated)
- Assisted passing = no skill required, every players can ping it like barca. Ive started playing manual on fifa (apart from using semi shooting) and i think assisted passing should be outlawed, which is why I was disappointed to see pes 2011 intergate the manual option by holding one of the shoulder buttons, rather than making the whole game manual.
- Do the ball physics need to be improved even further?? you never get the feeling in these game that the ball can go anywhere at anytime. When you watch serie A (proper football, not kick and rush premiership football where most teams cant even string a 3 pass move) and Wesley Sneijder (the king) steps up to take a set piece you sit there with anticipation because when he shoots, that ball could hit anyone and do anything, which could possibly lead to a goal.

If you're looking for a simulation then fully manual passing is the exact opposite of what you'd want in a football game. A simulation is supposed to be just that, a simulation of real life players and their real life abilities. Fully manual passing puts far too much emphasis on the skill of the gamer as opposed to having the AI and gamer skill in perfect balance. Arcady is the word. I'm all for freedom, but not of the expense of key aspects of individuality. PES has been, and should always be, the footballers'/football connoisseur's football game, not a gamer's football game.

 

[Tech_Skill]

If you're looking for a simulation then fully manual passing is the exact opposite of what you'd want in a football game. A simulation is supposed to be just that, a simulation of real life players and their real life abilities. Fully manual passing puts far too much emphasis on the skill of the gamer as opposed to having the AI and gamer skill in perfect balance. Arcady is the word. I'm all for freedom, but not of the expense of key aspects of individuality. PES has been, and should always be, the footballers'/football connoisseur's football game, not a gamer's football game.

I think Its possible to merge manual control with player individuality, I dont accept this garbage about letting the CPU ai decide where you pass because if you choose where you want to pass and how much you want to pass it there is no individuality.

Very simple.....

In pes, the shooting is with a powerbar, where you manually choose how much power/height you want to put into the shot

Does every forward have the same shooting ability in pro evolution soccer? think about the ps2 versions in particular.

I dont think so.

So even though there was a power bar, where the user manually input how much power/height they wanted in the shot, there were still factors in the game that affected how accurate and powerful that shot was going to be.

Its diffcult to explain, but lets say you have roberto carlos and you have Andrea Pirlo

Lets say you take a shot with carlos by using 80% of the power bar, and you do the same with pirlo.

Just because the value entered into the power bar is the same, the power of the shot in game should be different, because carlos has more shot power than pirlo, so 80% power for carlos should = more power than 80% for pirlo.

Maybe there are some holes in my theory above, but i think there is a way to find the balance between the user manually entering a value for passing/shooting and retaining some form of player individuality.

 

[Amateur]

Some interesting points made here.

Im not sure today's football games are designed to be played for long periods such as 45 min halves for example. The reason i say that is, i wonder if there are enough variables in the modern video games of today.

- The CPU AI attacks are repeatative
- Not enough player individuality in either game (fifa's is shit and pes's is overrated)
- Assisted passing = no skill required, every players can ping it like barca. Ive started playing manual on fifa (apart from using semi shooting) and i think assisted passing should be outlawed, which is why I was disappointed to see pes 2011 intergate the manual option by holding one of the shoulder buttons, rather than making the whole game manual.
- Do the ball physics need to be improved even further?? you never get the feeling in these game that the ball can go anywhere at anytime. When you watch serie A (proper football, not kick and rush premiership football where most teams cant even string a 3 pass move) and Wesley Sneijder (the king) steps up to take a set piece you sit there with anticipation because when he shoots, that ball could hit anyone and do anything, which could possibly lead to a goal.

I doubt there are enough variables in these games to make them that interesting for that long over the course of a season, but it depends on the individual playing also.



Now Im not a game developer, but this idea konami have 3 months to make major improvements in this game just doesnt wash with me. I'm no expert but im sure the game has to be sumbitted for QA and sales and marketing procedures before the game gets released, so this idea that konami have loads of time to keep developing isnt as strong as people think, which is probably why, when you look at the last few games konami have released, what you see before release, it usually what you get on release.






In some respects fifa is not outdated, full manual, set piece creator and 360 degree control have been lacking in past games (and before anyone starts, no perfect striker did not have the degree of control fifa offers you). However i would say both games are short of innvovation because the people making the games probably dont understand football the same way fans do.

FIFA is not outdated if you still enjoy 10 Minute Simulations...

However, this is the bottom line with the 10 Minute Concept: it is a concept that tells the user what to do, a concept where the COM dictates how the "script" unfolds throughout the game.

A lot of people are convinced that by making the game more "manual" then player individuality would be lost... I think that is not true, and I think "manual" passing is necessary if PES is ever going to Evolve the way it was meant to.

The problem is, that the 10 Minute Concept cannot handle both the "manual" concept and the "player individuality" concept,

Which is why you need to have one at the expense of the other; on the other hand, a 20 Minute Simulation would have enough space to merge both concepts without any downsides.

The Football Simulation that I have in mind, the way I see it; the COM should no longer tell the user what to do, instead, the COM should ASK the user what to do.

For that to be possible, Konami will need to change or alter the gameplay mechanics, in order to make the leap from 10 Minute Simulation to 20 Minute Simulation.

You mentioned 45 minute halves, in my opinion, we don't have enough fingers on our hands for such a complicated gameplay; however, a 20 Minute Game (10 minutes per halve) does sounds easily possible.

Below this line, you will see a concept that I talked about in the main page; it was originally directed at someone else, but I think it will give you a good idea of what could be possible if the game was not limited to a 10 minute time lapse.
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When I play PES 2010, I try to imitate the way Barcelona plays in real-life, with Xavi Hernandez coming down to deep positions in order to start attacks from the back.

And what I have done is, by using the Sliders and the L2 Strategies, I have used the “Formation B” where you get to change the formation on-the-fly, and what this does, whenever I hold the L2 button + tap the (x) button: the original formation stays the same but the playmaker of my team goes down into a deep position… and it works better than I expected.

Basically, I manipulate the movement of a selected player, in this case, the selected individual is the attacking midfielder of my team; so that everything stays the same (formation wise) but the attacking midfielder that usually plays in a more advanced role goes down into a deep position in order to start from the back.

And this is surprisingly effective as it creates new passing angles that would not be possible if I didn’t had this control over the attacking midfielder of my team.

And this makes me wonder…

What if Konami introduces a new feature for off-the-ball play, for example, if Carles Puyol has the ball at his feet and you pass the ball and subsequently you tap the L2 button instead of the R2 button…

We know that by passing the ball and subsequently tapping the R2 button: this would trigger a vertical run from the individual who just passed the ball, in this case Carles Puyol.

So what if, by passing the ball and subsequently tapping the L2 button instead of the R2 button: this would trigger an off-the-ball run from a selected individual, in this case, the selected individual would be the key playmaker of the team, Xavi Hernandez…

So this would mean, that if you pass the ball with Puyol and subsequently you tap (press and release) the L2 button: Xavi Hernandez would then start running into the exact space that Carles Puyol occupied when he passed the ball.

This means that if Carles Puyol has the ball at his feet, and you pass the ball to Dani Alvez (on the right flank) and subsequently you tap the L2 button (right after passing the ball); this would mean that before Dani Alvez has his 1st touch on the ball, Xavi Hernandez will already be running to that space that Puyol occupied when he passed the ball.

Can you imagine how much the game would change with such a feature? how much more control we would have over the off-the-ball movement of our team?

I have already tested how it works in PES 2010, and it works surprisingly well…

However, the L2 Concept that I just explained would give us total control over where and when we want that selected individual to move; and because we don’t need to manually control the off-the-ball movement of the selected individual, this would be very compatible with the manual-technical side of the game.

At the moment, with both PES 2010 and FIFA 2010, you do not need to THINK in order to create space… you can play the game by just passing the ball around without thinking about any of your actions, because you know that eventually the opportunity will present itself from out of the blue.

You can simply get hold of the ball and run vertically and this will create space, or you can just pass the ball and subsequently tap the R2 button without thinking about any of your actions.

I mean, would it be entertaining to play Chess without THINKING?

By that principle or concept, I think that either Konami or EA should offer a new take on how Football can be Simulated, and I think they should change how space is created, how opportunities are created; in a way that forces the user into THINKING so that THINKING becomes that “spark” needed for the game to function properly.
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The way I see it, you need to include the so-called “boring” parts of it so that the “fun” parts have an actual reason for being there.

And in order to properly implement the so-called “boring” parts, it will be necessary to move on from the outdated 10 Minute Concept… moving on would only re-establish or re-invent the PES feeling that has been somewhat lost due to the lack of innovation.

I have given one suggestion (the L2 Concept), so that the game can make the leap from 10 Minute Simulation to 20 Minute Simulation.

Like Johnny Minkley (Eurogamer) noticed:

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“further experimentation yields rewards and the flexibility becomes engagingly apparent the more I practice. Konami’s claim of total control over the direction and destination of passes holds up; the one potential downside is the need to rely on AI with no apparent way to send a free player into the space for which you’re aiming”
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It is very clear, that once we have “total control” over the technical side of the game, that is, in terms of passing, shooting, dribbling, and marking; once that happens, it’s not hard to imagine both PES and FIFA evolving in terms of off-the-ball control…

And once we have “total control” over both, the technical and tactical side of the game; would it be possible to play 10 Minute Games?

 

[shaun7]

I agree that you can make manual but still keep individuality. But doesn't that make it a slightly more manually controlled semi auto (fifa)?
To a point yes, but you will still get more control over direction.
So I think that we can make a more manual game and keep individuality.

 

[Amateur]

I agree that you can make manual but still keep individuality. But doesn't that make it a slightly more manually controlled semi auto (fifa)?
To a point yes, but you will still get more control over direction.
So I think that we can make a more manual game and keep individuality.

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78103

In that link you will get a more in-depth view of what I mean, I would like to know your opinion about it, so if you got the time or whenever you have the time, I would appreciate your views on the subject.

 

[Tech_Skill]

Just played fifa 10 and fifa world cup, these games are starting to make me feel sick, seriously, you do stuff like set defensive pressure to 0 and set the defense to contain and the defensive line is still at the centre circle. CPU AI ruins these games, they can go past you but you can never go past them, every single CPU AI cross is near perfect and has insane levels of curl, EA are just fucking lazy bastards when it comes to CPU AI and the shooting and heading is shit, in fifa you cant score a bullet header or even head the ball out of the box properly, the response times are not good enough and the shooting is crap, even on manual.

Ive had enough of this shit, unless fifa 11 sorts out these issues, i cant see myself wasting another year on this shit.

 

[Ultimate777]

And you just now managed to reach that conclusion? Its mystery as to why people keep suggesting pes should be taking ideas from that game when it has so many flaws and the positives are facets taken from PES itself. Their basically both corrupt games that are running off dated recycled concepts.

 

[Tech_Skill]

And you just now managed to reach that conclusion? Its mystery as to why people keep suggesting pes should be taking ideas from that game when it has so many flaws and the positives are facets taken from PES itself. Their basically both corrupt games that are running off dated recycled concepts.

Nope, just venting some fustration, having said that i played pes 2010 afterward, and its just diabolical, pure shit, fifa's main issues centre around the CPU AI not respecting player stats and just doing what the hell they want, which causes things to be very samey and its bugs having said that at the core it has serious potential, it offers a more realistic footballing experience imo then pes 2010 which is just pure trash, thats just 100mph end to end 16 directional crap.

 

[GuNNerZae]

it offers a more realistic footballing experience imo then pes 2010 which is just pure trash, thats just 100mph end to end 16 directional crap.

have to agree with you, the restricted dribbling bullshit has been driving me mad, year after year

 

[Ultimate777]

Nope, just venting some fustration, having said that i played pes 2010 afterward, and its just diabolical, pure shit, fifa's main issues centre around the CPU AI not respecting player stats and just doing what the hell they want, which causes things to be very samey and its bugs having said that at the core it has serious potential, it offers a more realistic footballing experience imo then pes 2010 which is just pure trash, thats just 100mph end to end 16 directional crap.

Thats what put me off fifa it basically has no individuality you can hardly tell the difference between players. I think its assets is its build up play, its fluidity and the collision animations is a notch above PES. But it just feels like there is no life in it and the problem I find is its too easy to get a 1v1 in the first place in Fifa. Your probably right that fifa is probably closer to in its potential to becoming similar to a real football experience than Pes. If they could fix the invidivuality and stats concept and notch up the AI than it would be more playable and enjoyable.

Pes sadly has fallen far away on what a football game should be about.
its make my blood boil seeing how simplified it has become. You are literally just pressing the pass and dash button and the computer does the rest, determining through stats who wins. Not much control/satisfaction for the player. And the lack of variety of goals its come down to now is ridiculous. Just race to the byline with your fastest winger , cross it and someone will bullet header it in. Or shoot outside the box while the AI opposition just backs off and watches.

 

[Tech_Skill]

Thats what put me off fifa it basically has no individuality you can hardly tell the difference between players.

This and the CPU AI is what ruins fifa and they need to solve it fast, like i say 'let the stats do the talking', the CPU AI in fifa totally disregards the laws of physics, the player stats, its disregards every fucking thing in the game. I honestly believe the fans will turn on fifa fast if they dont sort this, fifa 09 had something about it, but its fast getting is rep back as a game thats good for a week, nothing more.

 

[cirtnias]

This and the CPU AI is what ruins fifa and they need to solve it fast, like i say 'let the stats do the talking

I have to disagree here if you let the "stats do the talking" then where does form come into it? where does player morale come into it? if the game was based just on stats alone you might aswell play top trumps.

football is a game of many factors but admittedly some are hard to implement into a football game personally I think FIFA and PES are improving every year and we are edging closer

 

[Tech_Skill]

I have to disagree here if you let the "stats do the talking" then where does form come into it? where does player morale come into it?

Hold on a minute, i think youve taken my phrase too literally, having said that, the answer to your question is already in fifa 10 pretty much

Form affects stats by making them go up and down.

And both games could make it so that player morale makes stats go up and down.

Which could potentially work with what I have said above if these games lets the stats take effect, the problem with these games and particularly fifa, the CPU does what the hell it wants with no regard for player stats and the user can perform certain actions with no regard for player stats abilities.

This needs to change and fast imo.

 

[RAMAXWY]

I think Its possible to merge manual control with player individuality, I dont accept this garbage about letting the CPU ai decide where you pass because if you choose where you want to pass and how much you want to pass it there is no individuality.

Very simple.....

In pes, the shooting is with a powerbar, where you manually choose how much power/height you want to put into the shot

Does every forward have the same shooting ability in pro evolution soccer? think about the ps2 versions in particular.

I dont think so.

So even though there was a power bar, where the user manually input how much power/height they wanted in the shot, there were still factors in the game that affected how accurate and powerful that shot was going to be.

Its diffcult to explain, but lets say you have roberto carlos and you have Andrea Pirlo

Lets say you take a shot with carlos by using 80% of the power bar, and you do the same with pirlo.

Just because the value entered into the power bar is the same, the power of the shot in game should be different, because carlos has more shot power than pirlo, so 80% power for carlos should = more power than 80% for pirlo.

Maybe there are some holes in my theory above, but i think there is a way to find the balance between the user manually entering a value for passing/shooting and retaining some form of player individuality.

don't take it the wrong way but i just think you made the best post here since i've known you.
this is the way a football game should work and this is the way the PES series work mostly and FIFA isn't anywhere near this. then u also have the form to be taken into account which PES also have the colored arrows.
the problem is they messed up the animations,the refs, the response time and the AI when they went over to the next gen.
the tactics in PES still matter and are noticed in the game,in FIFA they don't mean ****.
So no one that's a real football fan or HAS A GOOD understanding of the game can say FIFA has catched up because they'd be lying.
even the graphics in PES are much better so if licensing for some is an issue and you just have to play online then i understand why you would choose FIFA but other then that i just don't get that choice.

 

[ahmed a.]

this is the way a football game should work and this is the way the PES series work mostly and FIFA isn't anywhere near this. then u also have the form to be taken into account which PES also have the colored arrows.
the problem is they messed up the animations,the refs, the response time and the AI when they went over to the next gen.
the tactics in PES still matter and are noticed in the game,in FIFA they don't mean ****.
So know one that's a real football fan or HAS A GOOD understanding of the game can say FIFA has catched up because they'd be lying.
even the graphics in PES are much better so if licensing for some is an issue and you just have to play online then i understand why you would choose FIFA but other then that i just don't get that choice.

well said.

 

[OCKRASS]

Fifa is better ...Hands down

I can understand that opinions and different taste in game play can create a Fifa vs PES is better war. However, i cannot understand why PES fans are asking for Fifa's gameplay to be added to PES 2011 if Fifa is no good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twTHET89dRI&feature=player_embedded

The above the lastest video released on PES 2011 gameplay and i must say while it is a very early build i don't like the looks of it.

FWC 2010 is currently the best football game out right now. Of course there are faults...but the game plays really well.

If anyone dares to say Fifa lacks individuality, then i would say PES has too much. Messi and CR9 to name only two. These players are gods.
To the person who stated that Fifa is loved by only children and gamers online ......he is right. This is because the game has minimal faults compared to PES. Currently Fifa represents the true feeling of what a footballs game feels like on a video game. PES is just rubbish.

...and guess what, I am a PES fan who cannot hide my biases anymore. I would love PES to adapt some of Fifa's gameplay (or most of it) and keep their shooting. If they cannot .....Fifa 11 is going to run them into the ground again ...regardless of what anyone here thinks.

 

[RAMAXWY]

let me make one thing clear i am not amongst those who think PES has to regain its crown because if you ask me they never lost it.
the expectations were sky high when they moved to next gen but who could blame us when u look at what they did on the ps2.
that's why most of us are dissapointed because we know it should and could've been much better.
the only thing they nailed was the graphics but the gameplay took a step back to what we were used to and still FIFA can't touch that.
the presentation in FIFA is just like PES' gameplay way up there.
FIFA outsells PES because the online is much better than PES.
when u say that PES has too much individuality then my friend i must tell u that u are playing the right game right now and enjoying it by the looks of it FIFA because the real PES fans want much more individualism because that makes teams different and makes playing the teams fantastic.
even FIFA knows this and will try something similar this year ask TECH he really knows his FIFA info.
MESSI and C. RONALDO GODS ?
well i wouldn't put it that way but when u want to experience the frustrations that most defenders go through while defending them what would u like them to be ?
they make top defenders that train full time and are highly paid and respected professionals look like school boys on the pitch.
the animations in PES are poor for PES fans because we've had better on a less powerfull console but those in FIFA suck much more if u ask me.
they move like dansers gracefully on the pitch as if they were floating, every single one of them and some hated the ice skating.
the football necessities in FIFA are all missing : tactics,individuality,spirit,control,surprise etc.
so i am all for the theory that everyone has its own taste so lets just say this is mine ok and i have the luxury of being someone who doesn't buy into the FIFA hype because i think its bull***.

woops can someone tell me what went wrong because i didn't post the same thing 3 times ?

 

[OCKRASS]

let me make one thing clear i am not amongst those who think PES has to regain its crown because if you ask me they never lost it.
the expectations were sky high when they moved to next gen but who could blame us when u look at what they did on the ps2.
that's why most of us are dissapointed because we know it should and could've been much better.
the only thing they nailed was the graphics but the gameplay took a step back to what we were used to and still FIFA can't touch that.
the presentation in FIFA is just like PES' gameplay way up there.
FIFA outsells PES because the online is much better than PES.
when u say that PES has too much individuality then my friend i must tell u that u are playing the right game right now and enjoying it by the looks of it FIFA because the real PES fans want much more individualism because that makes teams different and makes playing the teams fantastic.
even FIFA knows this and will try something similar this year ask TECH he really knows his FIFA info.
MESSI and C. RONALDO GODS ?
well i wouldn't put it that way but when u want to experience the frustrations that most defenders go through while defending them what would u like them to be ?
they make top defenders that train full time and are highly paid and respected professionals look like school boys on the pitch.
the animations in PES are poor for PES fans because we've had better on a less powerfull console but those in FIFA suck much more if u ask me.
they move like dansers gracefully on the pitch as if they were floating, every single one of them and some hated the ice skating.
the football necessities in FIFA are all missing : tactics,individuality,spirit,control,surprise etc.
so i am all for the theory that everyone has its own taste so lets just say this is mine ok and i have the luxury of being someone who doesn't buy into the FIFA hype because i think its bull***.

sup RAMAX,

I respect your opinion but i think that you are not qualified to judge Fifa since you haven't played the game to any extent. Many fans are just repeating stuff they read elsewhere.

In terms of individuality PES has none ....just very superfast players and slow dumbed down players. In Fifa there are players who are faster but not overly so. Take for instance Messi on Fifa, he has some speed but defenders hustle to keep him in check. But if he breaks away ...you have a chance.

The fact that you mentioned that PES never lost its crown makes me believe that you are not even a true PES fan...further more a true gamer or footie fan. Anyone here who has played PES from old days are evidently annoyed with direction the game has taken over the past three outings. To date online is still rubbish ..go ahead and blame Fifa for having a working online environment.

Fifa is the footie game of the future for now ...PES has to earn stripes again to catch up. My prediction is that Fifa 11 will blow minds again this year. Just wait.