PES Rage Thread: Rage till your heart's content...

[Sminky]

There's alot of issues Konami will be addressing for PES2012 ... and alot they will create trying to resolve them.

The speed issue is bit of a toughie though, you need a system players can use raw pace to beat players but not to the point where you can run the length of the pitch at light speed.

 

[Amateur]

@Amateur

I like the idea of using the right stick for first time passes, you could also use this to simply knock for the ball on for yourself(almost like a first touch option) if it was sensitive enough which I think the analog is. In my opinion its no coincidence that we have such poor cursor change as this works in tandem with automatic player movement and having little control over your own players movement, the fact my own cpu controlled players challenge for air balls without me doing anything which I find insulting. I also think the cursor change is poor on purpose as a balancing act introduced by konami, Seabass is naive to think we would not notice this but it might be a case of him simply not giving a shit.

Its hard for me to envisage a system right now that offers more freedom with regards to player movement in any given space, I understand the basis of your ideas but It will also take me some time to get my head round it from a technical point if view. One problem I find is my manual passes are dictated far to much by the fact the players move to the ball like a laser guided missile without me necessarily doing much. As soon as the ball leaves my players foot I want to be able to select any player and move to where the ball is if that makes sense? for this you would need a perfect cursor change system and no input from the computer. Obviously stats have an effect on player movement as well as tactics but like you said it should be up to the player how we use these stats. Maybe a more pressure sensitive system would work better in terms of the Left stick, for example in pes 2011 the more subtle you are when using the analog for control the defter your players touch(although not consistent) I would like to see them build on this, I certainly feel the options are there to make better use of the analog stick this would also include more animations that are stat based and triggered by what we decide.

I have said to many people this is the most scripted computer game I have ever played both for and against you(its obvious when the game helps you score), something I find flabbergasting considering its 2011 in a few days. At the same time I love the game which I also find strange considering how wrong some of the fundamentals are, but I do feel the game does many things right. On another note I have found the pressure to get to almost fifa 11 levels since the patch, it looks like an under 10's game with 5 AI players gang raping you at little cost to stamina and fatigue.

With regards to player movement, it should be very sensitive so that reflexes and timing and accuracy, all play a part. At the same time, sensitivity does not guarantee accuracy: PES11 is the best example of this.

Regarding player movement, I have formlated a dribbling system which consists of four key elements,

Direct the left analogue stick with the assistance of the R1 long sprint button: this affects the movement from one space to another space.

Direct the left analogue stick with the assistance of the L1 short sprint button: the L1 short sprint button will function like a power bar, and will barely affect the space covered, it will affect the direction that you are facing without affecting your position on the pitch; and if you hold it for longer, it will affect the space covered, but only slightly.

Direct the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint buttons: this affects your movement inside a determined space without affecting your position on the pitch and without affecting the direction that you are facing; this only affects dribbling purposes, it does not affects running purposes, and it does not affect the direction that you are facing, it only affects the dribbling movements in accordance to a determined space and a determined direction.

Direct the left analogue stick with the assistance of the R2 button: this affects feinting, that is, the art of dribbling without actually touching the ball; does not affect direction nor the distance covered, it only affects movement inside the space but without touching the ball.

I have thought about it quite a lot, and the mentioned system is the best answer I could come up with, since in my opinion it is accessible since it only requires: the left analogue stick, R1 button, and the L1 button; and above all, creates new space on the left analogue stick.

I think that is the best possible system, as it combines the responsiveness of the R1 and L1 shoulder buttons, with the range of movement of the left analogue stick.

The pressure sensitive R2 button would not be needed anymore, at least not in the same way it functions today, since it would be unnecesary; by releasing the sprint buttons, the players will automatically do what the R2 button currently does.

Having said that, the pressure sensitive R2 button could function for feinting, thus creating even more space on the left analogue stick; the potential space that the pressure sensitive R2 button and the left analogue stick button offer as a merged package, is enormous.

Currently, the potential space that the left analogue stick has to offer is not used properly because the left analogue stick has only one dimension to it, that is, running from one space to another space: which means that if the range of movement of the left analogue stick is a 1 to 10 range of movement, 2 to 10 percent of that range of movement produces RUNNING animations which affect your movement from one space to another space.

What could and should be done, is find the way of using that 1 to 10 range of movement for the sole purpose of implementing on-the-space animations; you can only do this by changing how the left analogue stick functions, which means that must also change how the sprint button functions.

What could and should be done in order to give more FREEDOM to the user, is create a dribbling system where the left analogue stick has two dimensions to it: movement through space and movement inside the space.

Visualize it like this, you are running forwards along the flank, very close to the line, you release the sprint button and then direct the left analogue stick as far towards the west as it can go: this will not get you out of the pitch, you will continue running forwards, directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint button will not affect the direction in which you run, it will only affect the direction in which you dribble or move inside a determined space and a determined direction.

As for manual passes, I was thinking about that yesterday, when I played the game; I have not thought about it that much, but so far I think the left analogue stick should determine the target of the pass: example, direct the left analogue stick as far towards the north as it can go, this means that your pass is aimed at the player whom is further away from the current position of the ball (position of the ball carrier); on the other hand, direct the left analogue stick slightly towards the north, this means that your pass is aimed at the player whom is closest to you.

The power bar determines the power, and the left analogue stick determines the direction and also determines the player who will run for it, in my opinion, it would be better than manually wasting your time by changing cursor.

Currently this is impossible, because if you direct the left analogue stick as far towards the north as it can go, this will produce RUNNING animations and it will affect your position on the pitch, it will affect your passing angle or your shooting angle, and this means the following: the left analogue stick cannot determine who will run for the pass, because the left analogue stick is already determining the distance covered with the ball and the direction of the pass.

If the left analogue stick did not affected the distance covered with the ball, you could then use the left analogue stick for determining the direction of the pass and also determining the player who will run for the pass; thus, no more mistakes related to players not reacting to the ball.

If the left analogue stick is to determine the player who will run for the pass, you need the complete 1 to 10 range of movement that the left analogue stick has to offer; you cannot determine such a specific thing if a 2 to 8 percent of the range of movement, out of a 1 to 10 range of movement, consists of RUNNING animations.

I don't like the feel of the manual passing, I know how to use it, but I just don't like it, in my opinion, it does not offers enough accuracy and depth to justify the sensitivity of it.

About the patch, my opinion is, I regarded PES11 as a regular game pre-patch, but post-patch it just falls in the below regular category, it feels even more scripted than before.

 

[S-D-P]

The game drives me crazy pure and simple. Every time I manage to find space with a player, he inevitably gets closed down by three-four defenders. I always curiously imagine how the opposition defense regrouped so quickly.

The field lines in this game are magnetic. Whenever I challenge a player near them the ball ALWAYS goes out for an opposition throw in. Whenever they are challenging me the ball magically takes a few ridiculous bounces and is picked up by an opposition player running full speed.

Off-sides are absolutely insulting. I can understand one player being in an offside position, but I am routinely seeing four or five even. I cannot tell you how many counter attacking situations have been wasted because of this.

The shooting is abysmal. I understand the necessity to be in space to unleash a perfect shot, but why does the ball need to balloon off the feet of the attacking player who is only under slight pressure? This is unrealistic and ridiculous.

The passing system is simply broken. One two passes rarely work because team AI routinely runs into the path of the player he has laid the ball off to. Often times my shots and even my passes ricochet of my own players, who are very poorly positioned for no reason other than to make my life difficult.

Finally, the most infuriating thing of all, the catch up logic and scripting. How can Cris (who is a smart defender in his own right) catch up to Cristiano Ronaldo, Theo Walcott, or Messi like the Terminator? I read on this forum once that this actually makes the game more realistic because you rarely see players use pure speed to beat players... Whoever wrote that deserves a gunshot to the back of the head. Watch Bale vs Inter.

Finally, the ball physics suck. Simply passes are wrongly juggled by players destroying passing coordination.

After playing three games today after a long hiatus... this is me raging.

It is an infuriating game, I have decided to have a break from the game(ie I snapped the disc in half) but I am replacing it in a few days as I find it incredibly addictive unlike the past few next gen games. I like the shooting system although more manual input would be nice without having an adverse effect on the individuality of the players. I think the default pass flatters to deceive and is far too assisted although some would argue its stat based. I like the new manual pass system and konami have the right idea, the problem here is that's its restricted by your player movement and the abysmal cursor change which induces monumental pes rage and makes me a twat to be around sometimes.

Close control with short burst of sprint is a very effective way of getting away from defenders, however I think KONAMI have been a bit lazy by just allowing defenders to catch up and ramping up the pressure, a lazy way to make the game harder and it can be infuriating as well as illogical.

KONAMI's naivety frustrates me, I don't think they realised how transparent the balancing acts are, these silly things that many in the thread have mentioned undermine the games premise. If you don't already try using close control, will make things a lot less frustrating but with the crazy increased pressure its less effective.

Amateur your ideas would offer more variation and precision maybe as I think it would allow you to independantly control your player thus making the game much more realistic and organic this would also allow you to use momentum shifts like you would in real life, although I probably need to re read your post to get the full idea. Manual passing can feel too stop start and does not have enough of an effect on the game I use it for 90% of play, the game is more suited for the automatic through ball that seems laser guided, the power par is redundant for through ball. Needs to be more intuitive maybe, doesn't not feel natural holding LT every time I make a pass, I just dont like the auto pilot normal pass.

I too have noticed a more scripted feel after patch, very strange.

 

[Ali]

It is an infuriating game, I have decided to have a break from the game(ie I snapped the disc in half) but I am replacing it in a few days as I find it incredibly addictive unlike the past few next gen games. I like the shooting system although more manual input would be nice without having an adverse effect on the individuality of the players. I think the default pass flatters to deceive and is far too assisted although some would argue its stat based. I like the new manual pass system and konami have the right idea, the problem here is that's its restricted by your player movement and the abysmal cursor change which induces monumental pes rage and makes me a twat to be around sometimes.

Close control with short burst of sprint is a very effective way of getting away from defenders, however I think KONAMI have been a bit lazy by just allowing defenders to catch up and ramping up the pressure, a lazy way to make the game harder and it can be infuriating as well as illogical.

KONAMI's naivety frustrates me, I don't think they realised how transparent the balancing acts are, these silly things that many in the thread have mentioned undermine the games premise. If you don't already try using close control, will make things a lot less frustrating but with the crazy increased pressure its less effective.

Amateur your ideas would offer more variation and precision maybe as I think it would allow you to independantly control your player thus making the game more much realistic and organic this would also allow you to use momentum shifts like you would in real life, although I probably need to re read your post to get the full idea. Manual passing can feel too stop start and does not have enough of an effect on the game I use it for 90% of play, the game is more suited for the automatic through ball that seems laser guided, the power par is redundant for through ball. Needs to be more intuitive maybe, doesn't not feel natural holding LT every time I make a pass, I just dont like the auto pilot normal pass.

I too have noticed a more scripted feel after patch, very strange.

Aren't you the guy who once bit his analogue sticks off? You should be the official spokesman for Rage.
Anyway, I think we should get back on topic, as it has swayed to another discussion about why PES is bad. Shouldn't look into things too deeply, it's only a game, and games are programmed to act in a certain way. Every game has limitations to tip the balance favourably towards the AI. Otherwise, the AI would never win.

On the subject of Rage (getting back on topic like I said), the past few days have been surprisingly Rage free for me. I've stayed away from online and BAL, my ML has been mostly enjoyable. However it does seem to go through phases. A few good matches followed by a few very frustrating ones.

 

[S-D-P]

Its not a case of saying how bad PES is, just commenting on the flaws and improvements that might stop me biting analog stick's off in the future, now I resort to calmly snapping the disc etc. Yes it is just a game, but you could use that sort of statement for thousands of things in life. I don't need to look deeply to notice some of the things mentioned, I am not stable enough:laugh: to be the PES rage spokesman.

 

[Hunter]

Maybe we believe modern PES games aren't as solid as older titles simply because now we've grown up, we're more knowledgeable of how it's developed and the intricacies of the gameplay. Whereas when we were young, we obviously didn't contemplate such issues, and we simply played the game as it was football.

Just a thought mind.

 

[S-D-P]

Maybe we believe modern PES games aren't as solid as older titles simply because now we've grown up, we're more knowledgeable of how it's developed and the intricacies of the gameplay. Whereas when we were young, we obviously didn't contemplate such issues, and we simply played the game as it was football.

Just a thought mind.

I was wondering about that, over analysing although I have always been an animal when it comes to PES rage. I do think the game has more balancing acts and exploitative AI than it used to. Other aspects of the game were more solid like you mentioned so the scripting was not as effective or infuriating. I also think its down to KONAMI trying to achieve the flow of a real match but they have done this too artificially for my liking. The game has also taken longer to evolve next gen so the old flaws stand out even more.

 

[Sminky]

I think the whole move to next gen has really been a nail in Konami's coffin. You expect flaws with PES, its a given and a shame but I'm sure there's a golden PES round the corner though.

 

[DiegoMalgani]

I don't think that is true at all. I routinely play PES 6 and PES 2009 and find those games much more balanced, responsive, and most of all fun. PES 2009 takes a lot of slag, particularly for its graphics and animations engine, nonetheless the game play IMO is outstanding. PES 6 (and anything below) was also balanced and responsive. Honestly PES 2011 feels like a combination of PES 2010 and PES 2008, two of the weakest games in the franchise. Although I grew to enjoy PES 2010 because it wasn't as rigid as PES 2011, it was uncharacteristically unresponsive for a PES title.

Pro Evolution was always about being user friendly, responsive, and fun, and I think Konami has lost sight of that. The franchise isn't developing as much as it is regressing. Its really unfortunate because although FIFA has improved immeasurably over the last 5-6 years, its cartoony graphics have turned me off from ever playing it. Ultimately I am a PES fanboy and its just a shame what is happening to the franchise.

 

[Sminky]

Sorry geezer but the move to next gen has been a debacle. PES2009 and PES2010 were simply dross for me. The graphics were average and it was far too easy at Top Player.

PES2011 is a much improved product but PES2012 will surely be the defining PES next gen game its taken years to arrive at. If it isn't you have to question what Konami are doing.

 

[S-D-P]

Same here, could not stand pes 2008, 09 although 2010 was a breath of fresh air after 4 months of fifa. PES 2011 and PES 5 are my highest rated PES games.

 

[Hunter]

PES6 on the Xbox 360 was brilliant, a really good PES title with great gameplay and even better online. The single player was very basic though and I think it was quite stripped down, especially in the Edit Mode section due to the game being rushed out for the next-gen. Every PES game after that though on the next-gen I'd consider to be really average at best. PES 2011 though is probably the best PES since PES6 in my opinion. Despite many flaws still, it's a more whole game, and the new passing system is a lot better than previous games.

 

[Amateur]

The game drives me crazy pure and simple. Every time I manage to find space with a player, he inevitably gets closed down by three-four defenders. I always curiously imagine how the opposition defense regrouped so quickly.

The field lines in this game are magnetic. Whenever I challenge a player near them the ball ALWAYS goes out for an opposition throw in. Whenever they are challenging me the ball magically takes a few ridiculous bounces and is picked up by an opposition player running full speed.

Off-sides are absolutely insulting. I can understand one player being in an offside position, but I am routinely seeing four or five even. I cannot tell you how many counter attacking situations have been wasted because of this.

The shooting is abysmal. I understand the necessity to be in space to unleash a perfect shot, but why does the ball need to balloon off the feet of the attacking player who is only under slight pressure? This is unrealistic and ridiculous.

The passing system is simply broken. One two passes rarely work because team AI routinely runs into the path of the player he has laid the ball off to. Often times my shots and even my passes ricochet of my own players, who are very poorly positioned for no reason other than to make my life difficult.

Finally, the most infuriating thing of all, the catch up logic and scripting. How can Cris (who is a smart defender in his own right) catch up to Cristiano Ronaldo, Theo Walcott, or Messi like the Terminator? I read on this forum once that this actually makes the game more realistic because you rarely see players use pure speed to beat players... Whoever wrote that deserves a gunshot to the back of the head. Watch Bale vs Inter.

Finally, the ball physics suck. Simply passes are wrongly juggled by players destroying passing coordination.

After playing three games today after a long hiatus... this is me raging.

Amen.

The game focuses on things which are, quite simply, impossible to simulate: deflections, luck, GK mistakes, things that are completely out of your control.

And unfortunately, the game ignores things which can actually be simulated quite realistically: dribbling, man-marking, movement without the ball, defensive reactions, etc.

Aren't you the guy who once bit his analogue sticks off? You should be the official spokesman for Rage.
Anyway, I think we should get back on topic, as it has swayed to another discussion about why PES is bad. Shouldn't look into things too deeply, it's only a game, and games are programmed to act in a certain way. Every game has limitations to tip the balance favourably towards the AI. Otherwise, the AI would never win.

On the subject of Rage (getting back on topic like I said), the past few days have been surprisingly Rage free for me. I've stayed away from online and BAL, my ML has been mostly enjoyable. However it does seem to go through phases. A few good matches followed by a few very frustrating ones.

Yeah but the problem is that, when you support a product for the best part of a decade, and you do not see REAL improvements after so many years.... you will start to question why that is.

Yes games function a certain way, but this is the funny thing about evolution: wheels initially functioned with animals, not with motors.

You keep perfecting how it works until it reaches it's full potential, after reaching full potential, you should not re-release the same bullshit for the next 5 years because this is an insult to the people who have supported your product.

This is what has happened with PES.

PES5: you can cover spaces of over 30 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint button.

PES11: you can cover spaces of over 30 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint button.

I have so much FREEDOM that I cannot even move without also affecting my position on the pitch? really? engineered for freedom?

What will PES12 offer?

This is what PES12 will offer: you can cover spaces of over 30 feet of distance by simply directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint button.

Had Konami invented the wheel, the wheel would still be energized by animals; it's just transportation? right?

But you did payed $60 for the video game, didn't you? Konami needs that money, it's real fucking money, I say, I give them real money: I want REAL fucking improvements.

At the end of the day, you just payed $60 on a small update of a video game you already own; yearly updates such as PES and FIFA are ridiculously overpriced.

Forget about the propaganda, just move the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint button, the subsequent reaction will tell you everything you need to know about the game.

Whether you like it or not, the left analogue stick talk is VERY on topic, this is the SOURCE of my rage, it is the reason why I even bother raging in the first place.

I personally prefer to rage by exposing the source of the problem; you can't expect everyone to rage the same way, no offense intended.

Maybe we believe modern PES games aren't as solid as older titles simply because now we've grown up, we're more knowledgeable of how it's developed and the intricacies of the gameplay. Whereas when we were young, we obviously didn't contemplate such issues, and we simply played the game as it was football.

Just a thought mind.

That's a fair point, but I strongly disagree with it.

PES5 and PES6 are 8-axis movement video games, the responsiveness of the game and the simplicity of the game, the responsive and consistent runs made by the AI in order to compensate for the lack of freedom of 8-axis movement, fitted in perfectly with the 8-axis feel of everything.

PES5 and PES6 are finished products; PES11 is a half baked product.

Good video games are good video games regardless of the time and regardless of your age; that's my opinion anyways.

PES5 and PES6 are not pretending to be "engineered for freedom", you can enjoy them for what they are, that is, responsive and intuitive 8-axis arcade games.

PES11 is a half baked product with some infuriating inconsistencies.

PES11 is the product that you get when you take an old formula and you change the essence of the formula: you replace the 8-axis movement and the responsiveness of the old 8-axis movement, with 360-axis slow and unresponsive motion capture movement.

This is why PES5 and PES6 feel more solid than PES11, because PES5 and PES6 are actually finished products; PES11 is not a finished product.

It's got nothing to do with the age of the consumer, it's got everything to do with the fact that the product never actually evolved, and the consumer simply got bored of the same old trick.

Had the product actually evolved, the consumer would still be enjoying the heck out of it, regardless of age.

 

[Ali]

Its not a case of saying how bad PES is, just commenting on the flaws and improvements that might stop me biting analog stick's off in the future, now I resort to calmly snapping the disc etc. Yes it is just a game, but you could use that sort of statement for thousands of things in life. I don't need to look deeply to notice some of the things mentioned, I am not stable enough:laugh: to be the PES rage spokesman.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying that it's just a game in the sense that "it's just a game, get over it, more important things in life blah di blah".... I'm probably one of the worst advocats for that sentence I think we are expecting waaay to much from PES at times, it is improving, but I don't think it will get to the level that we all want, at least not in this generation of consoles.
You don't have to be stable to be the Rage spokesman, you have good experience of it, that will do. Can I ask how you felt when you snapped the disk/bit the sticks off? Was it satisfaction? Or regret that you're gonna have to cough up more money? Controllers ain't cheap!

Maybe we believe modern PES games aren't as solid as older titles simply because now we've grown up, we're more knowledgeable of how it's developed and the intricacies of the gameplay. Whereas when we were young, we obviously didn't contemplate such issues, and we simply played the game as it was football.

Just a thought mind.

Interesting point, though I have always known about the cheating since ps1 days (when I was about 14) in a sense. I would have been a good spokesman for rage back then. Once through my brother's memory card across the room, breaking it, so he lost his MLs (about 5 or 6 of them.... twas a lot easier to do a ML back then!). We used to have themed teams, where we could only buy players from certain countries (about 6 per team), one of mine included Saudi Arabia! Anyway, I digress.

I was wondering about that, over analysing although I have always been an animal when it comes to PES rage. I do think the game has more balancing acts and exploitative AI than it used to. Other aspects of the game were more solid like you mentioned so the scripting was not as effective or infuriating. I also think its down to KONAMI trying to achieve the flow of a real match but they have done this too artificially for my liking. The game has also taken longer to evolve next gen so the old flaws stand out even more.

That's a great way of putting it.

Yeah but the problem is that, when you support a product for the best part of a decade, and you do not see REAL improvements after so many years.... you will start to question why that is.

Yes games function a certain way, but this is the funny thing about evolution: wheels initially functioned with animals, not with motors.

You keep perfecting how it works until it reaches it's full potential, after reaching full potential, you should not re-release the same bullshit for the next 5 years because this is an insult to the people who have supported your product.

This is what has happened with PES.

They can only take the game so far. We can't expect huuuuuge improvements every game. The old saying "Rome wasn't built in a day" comes to mind.

I think PES 2011 has been a big improvement, but it still falls into the same traps. I could compare it to my beloved Bolton. Since Coyle came to the team, there has been a big improvement in the style of football, attitude of players, attitude towards the fans, and general atmosphere. Though we can still fall back into the style of hoofing it up to our strikers when things don't go our way.

 

[sweetmusicman]

I cant help but to get a smile on my face as I read the through these posts because it soooooooo resembles me. Even though I am a christian I did swear a couple of times, smashed a couple of controllers with previous pes games. This far with Pes 2011 I can only calm myself by saying the comp is cheating so I'm going to restart the game. I think I've grown up lately becuase the closest I come to swearing is, "What the hell?" and then I go on with the game. But luckily when the game is over my rage is over, so I just proceed with the game and don't restart.
Pes 2011 is playable even with it's flaws and that for me is fine.

P.S. I how ever still keep a cushion next to me in case I want to throw something at the tv.

 

[sweetmusicman]

One of my expansive strikers will miss an array of one on one chances in tournament and I'm fuming'' that's it your getting sold as i soon as this competition is over you waste of space''. Then the player scores in the next match to win me the game and I change mind.

My fury thoughts when a striker missed a golden opportunity, " I'm taking you off, Yes I am taking you off!" Then I do just that, but as the game progresses and still no goals scored by the replacement I'm starting to wonder whether I did the right thing to take him off.(Most cases it is Rooney who gets replaced by either Benzima or Pato) Rooney however is my first choice striker...woooohooooo.

 

[S-D-P]

ALI_BWFC when I snapped the disc firstly there was satisfaction followed by what the fuck I have just done, I had to take my anger out somehow although looking back silly thing to do. Biting the sticks off was demoralising if somebody had been unfortunate to walk in they would've thought I was going crazy with rubber hanging out my mouth.

Buying the game again tomorrow sure KONAMI love me. Like Amateaur mentioned earlier in the thread I also have calm calculated rage where I can't comprehend some of KONAMI's illogical flaws. Can't wait to start a master league again.

 

[Kefir]

ALI_BWFC when I snapped the disc firstly there was satisfaction followed by what the fuck I have just done, I had to take my anger out somehow although looking back silly thing to do. Biting the sticks off was demoralising if somebody had been unfortunate to walk in they would've thought I was going crazy with rubber hanging out my mouth.

Buying the game again tomorrow sure KONAMI love me. Like Amateaur mentioned earlier in the thread I also have calm calculated rage where I can't comprehend some of KONAMI's illogical flaws. Can't wait to start a master league again.

It would have been cheaper to slap you mom or girlie...:ninja::erm::shocking:

 

[Kefir]

This is what it all boils down to: you direct the left analogue stick or the d-pad, it only affects movement from one space to another space, but it does not affects movement INSIDE one determined space.

Tackling is not running from one space into another space, if the left analogue stick does not determine the movement inside a determined space: who really determines the accuracy and effectiveness of the standing tackle or the sliding tackle?

I can tell you one thing.... you are not in control of it; example, you pulled off what looked like a perfect sliding tackle, but the referee or COM decided it was a foul, your opponent scores from the free-kick.

The computer dictates the ideal circumstances for corner-kicks or throw-ins by determining the position of the players; example, you pass the ball to a player whom is running along the right flank, as soon as the player trapped the pass, a defender came in and knocked the ball out of the pitch -- who decided that the opponent would get close to the ball so easily? who really decided the throw-in considering the fact that the user cannot actually determine the movement inside a determined space?

Another example: you pass the ball to a player whom is positioned on the right flank, close to the line, when the player trapped the ball, you then directed the pass, but whilst you directed the pass, your player continued running automatically even though you were not touching the sprint button, and because of this, he ran out of the pitch before he could release the pass....

Freedom they say? And yet you cannot fucking move yourself like a proper human being?

As a result you loose possession of the ball just because your players are morons who don't seem to be capable of moving without also affecting their positions on the pitch -- this is even worst when it happens with defenders, as it results in costly mistakes, such as stupid corner kicks, and then your opponent scores from the corner kick.

And how far does this goes, if you consider that dribbling is not running, if you consider that movement inside one space is not running; how does this flaw or restriction affects: your position on the pitch, your movement without the ball, your movement with the ball, passing animations, passing angles, shooting animations, shooting angles, dribbling animations, stationary dribbling animations, feinting animations, trapping animations, man-marking animations, tackling animations?

This means that there is no structure, no substance, and no consistency, to how the game plays and functions, because fundamental things such as the movement without the ball, are LITERALLY determined by the movement of the left analogue stick; which means that the game needs to be scripted by the computer, and cannot be scripted by the user, because it lacks the space and time required for the user to have control over the areas that constitute the script.




The game has always revolved around the direction in which a pass, a player with the ball, or a player without the ball, moves from one determined space into another determined space: it has always been impossible to use the d-pad or the left analogue stick, to move inside a determined space.

This is why, if you play a PS1 or PS2 or PS3 version of ISS or PES or FIFA, you will always experience the following: direct the left analogue stick or the d-pad without the assistance of any other button, and this will be enough to cover spaces of over 30 feet of distance.

The problem is and has always been: what happens if I only want to affect my movement INSIDE a determined space of 5 feet of distance?

What happens if I want to use the left analogue stick to affect my movement inside a circle or square of precisely 5 feet of distance?

What happens is, logically, that it is impossible.... because the left analogue stick automatically produces or triggers movement from one space to another space, and thus, the left analogue stick cannot possibly be accurate enough to affect your movements inside a space of precisely 5 feet of distance.

This means that the video game actually needs to be scripted, because the game does not have the SPACE and TIME necessary in order to implement the substance and structure, necessary for the user to have real control over the game.

Adding more directions in terms of how you pass the ball from one space into another space, more directions in terms of how the player runs from one space into another space, due to obvious and logical reasons, will never actually fix the fact that you cannot move inside one determined space; therefore, it will never actually fix the core flaws which are inherent when the left analogue stick and d-pad cannot affect movement inside a determined space.

This means that, since the left analogue stick can actually determine the distance covered with the ball without the assistance of the sprint button, since the sprint button is obsolete without the assistance of the left analogue stick: you cannot affect the movement inside a determined space, or in other words, it is impossible to affect movement without also affecting your position on the pitch.

The left analogue stick always, permanently, produces running physics which affect movement from one space into another space; which means that a lot of space and time that you might perceive in terms of visuals is mere illusion in terms of utility, because you cannot actually use it since it does not actually exists in the game.

And thus, the game does not provide the user with the SPACE and TIME that is necessary to implement the substance and structure, necessary for the user to actually have real control over the game.

Try playing 20 minute games with PES11, see how many goals you score in just 20 minutes of play, and see how many mistakes are entirely out of your control; not enough SPACE, and as a result, not enough TIME, to allow you enough control over the game.

You could play PES11 for 90 minutes straight, if it was possible, and the game would probably end with an unrealistic 18-14 score line; not enough SPACE, and as a result, not enough TIME, to allow you enough control over the game.

And let it be clear, that implementing enough space and time into a 10 minute game, is just as possible as highlighting 90 minutes of play in 10 minutes of footage.




This is why it is necessary for the movement without the ball to be LITERALLY determined by the movement of the left analogue stick, because the game does not actually has the SPACE and TIME required for proper build up play; and how can you minimize the mentioned fact?

By eliminating build up play, but making you feel like you are in control, and making you think that build up play is possible within the confines of the video game: it's not.

How do you create an illusion of control?

A byproduct of how the left analogue stick functions, is the following fact: the movement without the ball is LITERALLY determined by the movements of the left analogue stick, the movement without the ball is not determined by the position and movement of the ball; without the ball, the sprint button is obsolete without the assistance of the left analogue stick or d-pad.

Which means the following: without the ball, you direct the left analogue stick in circles, and as a result, a player on the pitch will move in circles.... in other words, a player without the ball will react in accordance to the movements of the left analogue stick, but not in accordance to the movement and position of the ball.

The user moves the left analogue stick and a player without the ball will instantly respond to the command of the user, this creates an illusion of control, but in reality, this is the reason why the user does not have control over the important areas of the game; which are the areas that constitute the script, that is, movement without the ball.

By doing this, Konami minimizes the flaws of their product.

Example: I take a fast player like Cristiano Ronaldo, I direct the left analogue stick, Cristiano Ronaldo reacts in accordance to the movements of the left analogue stick, that is, Cristiano Ronaldo reacts and moves as if he had a radar implemented into his brain; and because it is impossible to affect the movement inside one determined space, Cristiano Ronaldo easily disposes of Andres Iniesta because CR7 is a lot faster and moves from one space into another space much faster, and ultimately, Cristiano Ronaldo wins the ball and starts an attack; rush and push football, bashing buttons without ever actually utilizing your brain.

FACT: it is impossible for build up play to exist, if the movement without the ball is not determined by the movement and position of the ball.

How can you contain the movement of the ball if the defensive controls or buttons do not function in accordance to the movement of the ball?

You cannot contain the movement of the ball, it is out of your power, out of your hands, the COM will decide this for you and will give you the upper hand in random occasions, and by the same principle, the COM will also play against you and will give your opponent the upper hand: this mostly happens right after you score a goal, because the COM is looking for a way to even things and make the game more exciting than it really is.

This is what we correctly describe as CHEATING or as SCRIPTED gameplay.

You can see it from a mile away, but you cannot actually prevent it from taking place, it is a very old formula: I direct the left analogue stick in circles, and a player without the ball moves in accordance to the movements of the left analogue stick; this means that the video game actually needs to be scripted, because the left analogue stick produces repetitive and pre-determined physics which visually look almost identical but in terms of utility or effectiveness are determined by statistics.

In real life, a player like Cristiano Ronaldo would never have the defensive accuracy required to steal the ball from a player like Lio Messi; in PES, you can easily do it, and it requires no precision at all, you just bash the sprint button until you win the ball, the computer will take care of the defensive accuracy required to steal the ball away from players like Andres Iniesta or Lio Messi.

If the user could affect the movement inside a determined space, this would create a new dimension of space that is currently nonexistent, which means that it would also create a new dimension of time: space and time that is necessary and required in order to measure and think about how you tackle without the ball or how you dribble with the ball.

What we have with PES, is animations or physics which work AUTOMATICALLY in accordance to statistics: the user does not uses the statistics, instead, the statistics work automatically.... and who decides when Cristiano Ronaldo easily disposes of Lio Messi? The computer.

At the end of the day, the COMPUTER will decide whatever the hell it wants to decide, it is completely out of your control: cheating, scripted gameplay, where winning or loosing is determined by who exploited the most flaws and by who scored the most goals when the computer gifted him with the chance.

Didnt bother to read it all...you need to get a life...btw are you telling me that i play against a computer?!?! Wow thanks for the info...

 

[thenotsogood]

I'm shite at penalties, still raging over why they've changed it to such a piece of shit system. Use a power bar and the left analogue stick from behind the goal, fucking sorted.

The main reason I'm here, just had the most frustrating game in the world where fair tackles were being given as free-kicks, I had a Liverpool defender stumble over my forward after he'd landed from a diving header. Ref gave a fucking free-kick to them for that, I should have had a fucking corner. Konami need to shake their fucking heads when it comes to referees, absolutely diabolical. I eventually won the game on penalties, and that was only because they seem to revert to their nomal selves on shoot-outs, which again infuriates me.

Why introduce a totally new (shite) system and have them change depending on what aspect of the game you're in? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

Pissed off even more because after countless chances missed, disallowed and downright cheated on, I finally score. Then Torres wipes out my defender, no ball contact at all, and they go and score. Within a minute of me deservedly taking the lead.

Fucking fuming.