I'm afraid to say..

klashman · Nov 18, 2010

Avelives said:
If its any use to you I totally understand your point, a simpler example to use (as people seem to misunderstand you) is you cannot currently do a simple thing like backing up with the ball what most people regard as classic centre forward hold up play, thats currently impossible.

When receiving a pass hold R2 plus the analog stick in say the direction opposite to the defender and you trap the ball instantly in that direction.

You will be stationary.

then just hold R1 with no directional input an the player will shield the ball!

Sure theres a brief glimpse of it when receiving lofted passes but its an automatic animation once the ball goes live (on the floor) you must move with it or have it stolen, another good example similar to that is you cannot shield the ball on the spot, basically unless you moving you are considered prone almost, and are easily dispossesed which is utterly unrealistic.

So this frustration can be avoided by doing the above!

Trust me i don't misunderstand amateur, he's a lunatic! I knew this straight away after that bizarre post about the 'on the fly tactics'. He wrote an essay saying they were 'missing'

People then just said they were moved to the select button (previously they were with L2, he wrote another essay saying they are too hard to adapt to. people stopped taking his crap seriously then he back tracked and said, it's easy to adapt to, it's not 'practical'?

He contradicts himself in almost every post and to put it simply. he's just pissed he's not good at the game

I'm here to try and retain some order in this forum because there's too many idiots who need to be calmed down!

klashman · Nov 18, 2010

You know what i have a better idea than what that lunatic came up with

using the FIFA 11 controls as a model, mixed with PES controls:

Now you will HAVE to use the Xbox 360 or Sixaxis controller as an base, just build on what EA have done in FIFA which is to have pressure sensitive control!

This will work just like how the Pressure sensitive Sprinting works in FIFA 11, where the longer you hold down RT or R2 The further ahead you push the ball ahead of you.

The longer you hold down LT or L2, the closer you control the ball

Hey, it's just an idea but i ain't losing any sleep if it's not in PES 2012 or not or FIFA 12 for that matter!

Now again I'm going to keep on telling you why Amatuer is crazy because i he had any REAL understand of FIFA even he would have known this and somehow implemented this into this idea, yet strangely he's still barking on about L1 or R1

Amateur · Nov 18, 2010

klashman said:
When receiving a pass hold R2 plus the analog stick in say the direction opposite to the defender and you trap the ball instantly in that direction.

You will be stationary.

then just hold R1 with no directional input an the player will shield the ball!

And that, my friend, is AUTOMATIC.... because it does not actually requires any user input.

If you do not understand why holding the R1 button without doing anything.... is utterly boring and automatic.... you are fucking dumb.

You know why it does not requires directional input? you dumb fuck?

Because Konami cannot implement organic on-the-spot physics into the left analogue stick. It is not a strength of the game, it is a flaw.

That is something that a SKILLFUL gamer such as myself, would notice after one game; and guess what? The left analogue stick functions in year 2010, the same way it functioned in year 1998.

No user input, no directional input: it is pre-determined, the user does not utilizes the STATS, the STATS work automatically.

You are entertained by that? Yes you are, and I respect that.

On the other hand, I am not entertained by such a simplistic and dumb concept; three years ago I would have enjoyed it, but in year 2010 I am no longer entertained by the same trick; you should respect my opinion, the same way I respect yours.

Otherwise, you just look like a fucking moron, arguing against a fact, and attacking human beings who do not agree with your opinion.

klashman said:
Trust me i don't misunderstand amateur, he's a lunatic! I knew this straight away after that bizarre post about the 'on the fly tactics'.

I'm here to try and retain some order in this forum because there's too many idiots who need to be calmed down!

You do not respect me, I know; consequently, I also do not respect you.... you see, this is how karma works.

You do misunderstand me, you clearly do not understand my argument, and you clearly have a piss poor criteria for judging people and for judging arguments.

You don't know me. In any case, you are the one who sounds like a lunatic.... since you are dumb enough to argue against a fact, since you are dumb enough to insult a human being over a fucking video game.

Fuck that. You need to grow up. You are an embarrassment, in the truest most literal sense of the word.

klashman said:
You know what i have a better idea than what that lunatic came up with

using the FIFA 11 controls as a model, mixed with PES controls:

Now you will HAVE to use the Xbox 360 or Sixaxis controller as an base, just build on what EA have done in FIFA which is to have pressure sensitive control!

This will work just like how the Pressure sensitive Sprinting works in FIFA 11, where the longer you hold down RT or R2 The further ahead you push the ball ahead of you.

The longer you hold down LT or L2, the closer you control the ball

Hey, it's just an idea but i ain't losing any sleep if it's not in PES 2012 or not or FIFA 12 for that matter!

Now again I'm going to keep on telling you why Amatuer is crazy because i he had any REAL understand of FIFA even he would have known this and somehow implemented this into this idea, yet strangely he's still barking on about L1 or R1

I already have a low opinion of you, and yet you still find a way of impressing me; I did not knew you could be that dumb.... you have proven me wrong.

The pressure sensitive R2 button is one button; there is running with the ball glued to feet, and knocking the ball forwards.

How is ONE button supposed to determine two different things?

In addition, by doing that, you are ditching the R2 close control.... where would the R2 close control go?

L2 button? Where would the on-the-fly strategies go? Oh let me guess... in the select button? right? Laughing my ass off, you are a fucking noob.

Go and join WENB, that "forum" is for fanboys like you and Football777.

PS -- you are an unknown quantity at this point.... you know why? Because the people who make sense do not get along with you.

marcgiu · Nov 18, 2010

Amateur said:
And that, my friend, is AUTOMATIC.... because it does not actually requires any user input.

If you do not understand why holding the R1 button without doing anything.... is utterly boring and automatic.... you are fucking dumb.

You know why it does not requires directional input? you dumb fuck?

Because Konami cannot implement organic on-the-spot physics into the left analogue stick. It is not a strength of the game, it is a flaw.

That is something that a SKILLFUL gamer such as myself, would notice after one game; and guess what? The left analogue stick functions in year 2010, the same way it functioned in year 1998.

No user input, no directional input: it is pre-determined, the user does not utilizes the STATS, the STATS work automatically.

You are entertained by that? Yes you are, and I respect that.

On the other hand, I am not entertained by such a simplistic and dumb concept; three years ago I would have enjoyed it, but in year 2010 I am no longer entertained by the same trick; you should respect my opinion, the same way I respect yours.

Otherwise, you just look like a fucking moron, arguing against a fact, and attacking human beings who do not agree with your opinion.

You do not respect me, I know; consequently, I also do not respect you.... you see, this is how karma works.

You do misunderstand me, you clearly do not understand my argument, and you clearly have a piss poor criteria for judging people and for judging arguments.

You don't know me. In any case, you are the one who sounds like a lunatic.... since you are dumb enough to argue against a fact, since you are dumb enough to insult a human being over a fucking video game.

Fuck that. You need to grow up. You are an embarrassment, in the truest most literal sense of the word.

I already have a low opinion of you, and yet you still find a way of impressing me; I did not knew you could be that dumb.... you have proven me wrong.

The pressure sensitive R2 button is one button; there is running with the ball glued to feet, and knocking the ball forwards.

How is ONE button supposed to determine two different things?

In addition, by doing that, you are ditching the R2 close control.... where would the R2 close control go?

L2 button? Where would the on-the-fly strategies go? Oh let me guess... in the select button? right? Laughing my ass off, you are a fucking noob.

Go and join WENB, that "forum" is for fanboys like you and Football777.

PS -- you are an unknown quantity at this point.... you know why? Because the people who make sense do not get along with you.

Anyway.............

Amateur · Nov 18, 2010

marcgiu said:
Anyway.............

Why? do you bother? writing absolutely nothing?

Since you never contributed anything to the conversation or debate, you should have stayed silent, because writing "anyways......" is pointless.

Anyways............... I think you are an asshole.

marcgiu · Nov 18, 2010

Amateur said:
Why? do you bother? writing absolutely nothing?

Since you never contributed anything to the conversation or debate, you should have stayed silent, because writing "anyways......" is pointless.

Anyways............... I think you are an asshole.[/QUOTE

I think you have contributed enough for everyone.

klashman · Nov 18, 2010

Amateur said:
And that, my friend, is AUTOMATIC.... because it does not actually requires any user input.

:shocking: descending more into madness i see.

If you do not understand why holding the R1 button without doing anything.... is utterly boring and automatic.... you are fucking dumb.

And if you cannot see how when you hold the R1 button your player attempts to shield the ball, the game then depending on your body balance and weight the game simulates how long your allowed to keep it there with the presence of a defender.

The user input which you stupidly keep disregarding because your mad is actually H O L D I N G R2 plus the direction away from the defender to keep it away from him then holding R1 to hold him off for a few seconds to get time.

You know why it does not requires directional input? you dumb fuck?

Because Konami cannot implement organic on-the-spot physics into the left analogue stick. It is not a strength of the game, it is a flaw.

It's a flaw in your screwed up mind because your jumping up and down angry you can't play it, your deluded ego cannot handle the fact you can't enjoy so you HAVE to discredit anything the game does!

organic on the spot physics, now what football game has ever reproduced that? NONE why? IT'S GOT BETTER THINGS TO WORRY ABOUT THAN IF YOU CAN REPRODUCE PERFECT RIQUELME STANDING SKILLS.

Whats else makes it more bizarre is this video you showed me of Riquleme proves you wrong :shocking: in your own point your proved wrong!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxFoO8CXoU

How is a football game going to replicate what happens here. Riquleme is dribbling as normal then some dude practically jumps into his back causing him to stumble 180 degrees, his brilliant quick feet once standing there get him away from the defenders

That's going to be impossible to recreate since you would need endorphin physics to naturally generate the clash between Riquleme and the defender to turn around in the first place, with consoles can only just about handle what it has now, there's no way endorphin will be implemented!

As for the quick feet, Just use lane change (L2 + right analog stick)

That is something that a SKILLFUL gamer such as myself,

Your not a skillful gamer, you still making excuses for not playing Football777! 'Skillful' gamers dosen't get wound up and cry because he cant adapt tactics properly and does more than spam balls with Xavi!

Also how about like me, why do let a game get the better of you like PES clearly has? It's a VIDEO GAME! Why are you letting a standard, rather basic AI programming beat you?

No user input,

no directional input:

it is pre-determined,

I told you before it's simulated!

the user does not utilizes the STATS, the STATS work automatically.

The stats simulate the outcome. PES is all about the Stats! if you played with more than just Barcelona and Boca Junoirs you would maybe understand.

Now people if you can see this guy is crazy he's judging the game and he's played with what? Two teams at the most?

On the other hand, I am not entertained by such a simplistic and dumb concept; three years ago I would have enjoyed it, but in year 2010 I am no longer entertained by the same trick;

A dumb concept which is too hard for you to understand :laugh:

You do not respect me, I know;

Are you surprised. have you read your posts?

consequently, I also do not respect you.... you see, this is how karma works.

:erm: couldn't care less, since you proven yourself to be mad!

You do misunderstand me, you clearly do not understand my argument,

I do understand your argument and i see you as a desperate sad man who dug himself a hole he can't get out of. You talked so much shit over these last few weeks and probably more for all i know, you been contradicting yourself more than ever and backtracking and changing your points to make even less sense than they did in the first place.

You should you know little or nothing about PES or even FIFA mind you!

You don't know me.

No need to get emotional!

I don't know know you personally, neither does anyone else here but by your attitude on these forums i don't think anyone wants to get to know you at all!

In any case, you are the one who sounds like a lunatic.... since you are dumb enough to argue against a fact,

Another desperate attack, i fully acknowledged that the left stick dictates the direction you move and the distance the distance the ball travels when you have it under your control

But that's not a problem for me or 99.99% of the people who play this game. Because it's a GAME!

since you are dumb enough to insult a human being over a fucking video game.

Pot calling the kettle black i see. You don't even know what your saying

I already have a low opinion of you, and yet you still find a way of impressing me;

Can some tell me how that makes sense?

How is ONE button supposed to determine two different things?

:shocking::shocking::shocking::shocking:

I'm NOT talking about a BUTTON, I'm talking about a TRIGGER[/SIZE] or bumper/axis etc..

http://wzeu.ask.com/r?t=a&d=mys&s=a...ices/xbox_360_controller_windows/dsc_0173.jpg

You see those two back triggers, yes, when i say R2 or RT on the Xbox i mean THAT!

My god, that's its a BIG fail! One of the BIGGEST fails i've seen in a forum in a long time!

L2 button? Where would the on-the-fly strategies go?

:lmao: :lmao:

So skillful but you still can't adapt to the select button!

Sminky · Nov 18, 2010

Holding L2 increases the chances of your player holding onto the ball as does using the right analogue stick ... but ... there isn't a guaranteed way to hold off defenders.

On MLO you will see games where central midfield becomes a total dog fight, you don't even have time to try and slow down the play as 2 players will be straight on you. For these games I just play long ball but its silly how easy it is to get through on goal. I chipped a ball over some lads entire midfield and defence, it wasn't a long ball per se but a chipped through pass.

I watch a lot of football, I watch matches live and I can safely say that as much as I love and find MLO addictive the style of football played is not representative to reall football. The foundation of a great game is there, its just not quite perfect yet.

Ultimate777 · Nov 18, 2010

:lmao: bloody hell klashman I admire your dedication in giving that nutcase anymore time when he's already proven himself to be nothing more than little bitch who likes complaining because in his own words he cant run past 4 players with messi like he did on pes2010.

Then runs away and goes back on his word to play me which he said he would do.

Crys about insults yet every post of his he's calling everyone assholes and cunts.

He's a liar, hypocrite and a coward. Someone not worthy to debate with or take seriously.

klashman · Nov 18, 2010

Sminky Pinky said:
Holding L2 increases the chances of your player holding onto the ball as does using the right analogue stick ... but ... there isn't a guaranteed way to hold off defenders.

Yes

shielding helps bu it's not really fluid enough maybe.

Sminky Pinky said:
On MLO you will see games where central midfield becomes a total dog fight, you don't even have time to try and slow down the play as 2 players will be straight on you. For these games I just play long ball but its silly how easy it is to get through on goal. I chipped a ball over some lads entire midfield and defence, it wasn't a long ball per se but a chipped through pass.

With MLO there's like two types of games, a good dogfight ( i have really poor players still) or those sprinters who are totally idiots and just spam the ball forward.

Long balls should against crap players who don't know how to defend

I play in a online league which i find brings the absolute best out of the game, there are too many idiots on MLO and you really have to abe dedicated to pay it which i'm not

I watch a lot of football, I watch matches live and I can safely say that as much as I love and find MLO addictive the style of football played is not representative to reall football. The foundation of a great game is there, its just not quite perfect yet.

I told you, see before you were hating this game, the more you explore and play the more you will like it.

The foundations are what i love about this game. Yeah, it's clearly nowhere near perfect but there's so much even in this game to learn and master. I love it.

IMO Master League online is addictive but isn't the best mode for this game, MLo represents a dogfight well but i feel the 'regular' Ai makes the defnder ratehr stupid and the goalkeepers prone to horrific errors

I'd say straight ranked matches are better even. Nothing beats playing against other good players in a league imo.

I happy we agree on the foundations! I call this game the start of a revolution

klashman · Nov 18, 2010

Football777 said:
:lmao: bloody hell klashman I admire your dedication in giving that nutcase anymore time when he's already proven himself to be nothing more than little bitch who likes complaining because in his own words he cant run past 4 players with messi like he did on pes2010.

Then runs away and goes back on his word to play me which he said he would do.

Crys about insults yet every post of his he's calling everyone assholes and cunts.

He's a liar, hypocrite and a coward. Someone not worthy to debate with or take seriously.

He has SERIOUS issues! It's going to be hard to try and get him to understand he has a problem!

Thing is there are people who don't like the game which is fine who actually listen to him for the sake of sharing the hate without really understanding that this guy doesn't hate the game because after 1-2 weeks of play it dosen't suit his style. It's because he can't play it!

Weather you like or loath the game just don't listen to that lunatic

bestpesever · Nov 18, 2010

if u changing dribling every year u go nowhere.

this year is a MUST HAVE tackling system on right stick like this..

right stick north-up to end is streight leg out infront of player.
right stick north-up to halfway up is half leg out

right stick to right is for right leg out(to right side).right stick to end is long leg out
and halfway.half leg out.

right stick to left is for left leg out(to left side)right stick to end is long leg out and halfway.half leg out.

right stick to back is for back leg out(behinde player)right stick to end is long leg out and halfway.half leg out.

with this u can tackle,block shots,crosses.stop trought passes if u close enought.
and u dont have automatic defenders,you defend all.

but this can be bad for dribbler.so if defender is on right leg weight.he cant move leg to right,of course.
so u must think how and when u tackle.and dribbler too.

Avelives · Nov 18, 2010

klashman said:
I mean FIFA 11 and PES 2011 have pretty much hit the ceiling in terms for technology development for this generation of consoles so you believe that every game is crap because it dosen't meet you ridiculous unreasonable standards?

Regardless of the rest of your points (some of which were valid) the above is plain wrong imo. If you believe this is 'the ceiling' for a machine like the PS3 then you have a really low expectation.

Consider this, how much in real terms (graphics withstanding) has PES really moved in technology/gameplay terms over the last 7 years? I mean honestly if you spruced up the old PES5/6 graphics and re-released it on the PS3 it would probably be a better game than PES11, thats cause at its core the game has made no attempt to revolutionise the way we play football games.

Your talking about consoles which can easily run games like GTA4 which are mind boggling complex compared to a football game, indeed take the GTA series, its gone from being a top down 2d game to a virtual 3d city simulator, thats progress, every incarnation Rockstar pushes the envelope and has improved it each time, where as Konami and EA just fiddle around the edges to make just enough changes to justify another release, which is fine in a sense plenty of devs do that, but dont try to suggest its hit a technical ceiling cause thats laughable.

klashman said:
When receiving a pass hold R2 plus the analog stick in say the direction opposite to the defender and you trap the ball instantly in that direction.

You will be stationary.

then just hold R1 with no directional input an the player will shield the ball!

Sorry thats wrong, if you do that online it simply requires someone rushing at your from an angle of 45 degrees or more and using the square button and you'll be disposed quicker than you can blink. Show me a game online or against the AI where play is slow or almost stationery during midfield build up, like the best teams play, it doesnt happen, you might be able to replicate a form of it, but its woefully ineffective compared to the rush and push tactics which are 100 times easier to implement.

Sminky Pinky said:
On MLO you will see games where central midfield becomes a total dog fight, you don't even have time to try and slow down the play as 2 players will be straight on you. For these games I just play long ball but its silly how easy it is to get through on goal. I chipped a ball over some lads entire midfield and defence, it wasn't a long ball per se but a chipped through pass.

I watch a lot of football, I watch matches live and I can safely say that as much as I love and find MLO addictive the style of football played is not representative to reall football. The foundation of a great game is there, its just not quite perfect yet.

This is pretty much spot on, MLO is addictive in a way, as all forms of PVP are if you invest time, but as a representation of football its really shoddy.

klashman said:
Yes shielding helps bu it's not really fluid enough maybe.

With MLO there's like two types of games, a good dogfight ( i have really poor players still) or those sprinters who are totally idiots and just spam the ball forward.

Long balls should against crap players who don't know how to defend

I play in a online league which i find brings the absolute best out of the game, there are too many idiots on MLO and you really have to abe dedicated to pay it which i'm not

I told you, see before you were hating this game, the more you explore and play the more you will like it.

The foundations are what i love about this game. Yeah, it's clearly nowhere near perfect but there's so much even in this game to learn and master. I love it.

IMO Master League online is addictive but isn't the best mode for this game, MLo represents a dogfight well but i feel the 'regular' Ai makes the defnder ratehr stupid and the goalkeepers prone to horrific errors

I'd say straight ranked matches are better even. Nothing beats playing against other good players in a league imo.

I happy we agree on the foundations! I call this game the start of a revolution

This kinda proves my point, ive never said the game cant be enjoyable, indeed when you play another true footie fan it can be great if you both play within the realms of reality, but the fact that its so easy to exploit and ruin the experience with minimal effort (see MLO) proves how flawed the current system is, honestly I think they should skip next year and build a whole new game imo

klashman · Nov 19, 2010

Avelives said:
Regardless of the rest of your points (some of which were valid) the above is plain wrong imo. If you believe this is 'the ceiling' for a machine like the PS3 then you have a really low expectation.

Well i haven't finished reading your reply and i think i may leave it at this because your wrong.

Where your wrong is this game has to be made to the specifications of the xbox 360! Yes the PS3 is a much better more powerful system (Gran Turismo 5 etc) But the Xbox must be able to handle the game! So that's my point

They can't release the game so the engine it runs on is more superior on the PS3 compared to the Xbox 360. It's not just bad politically it's simple you can only focus on making ONE game per year.

To me games these days many games especially on the 360, look like they have hit the ceiling in terms of groundbreaking development! Look at Assassins creed, black ops, Bad Company etc.. all nice additions to their predecessors but nothing groundbreaking like we saw 2-3 years ago.

I mean you can even go back to 1990-1991, I mean compare the sonic games (1 and 2) to the football games at that time

Adventures/sandbox games always look better, play better and appear more advanced than sports games

What i identify as groundbreaking is like i mentioned something like Endorphin physics, something which compliantly changes the way we play video games

Consider this, how much in real terms (graphics withstanding) has PES really moved in technology/gameplay terms over the last 7 years? I mean honestly if you spruced up the old PES5/6 graphics and re-released it on the PS3 it would probably be a better game than PES11,

Well you can download a heavily patched PES 6 for PC and you will find out that i simply dosen't compete with PES 2011, those games were on rails in terms of dribbling, too many cheap ways of scoring and exploits (Fake shots to effective, cutbacks, free kick bug, Adriano, heavily scripted shooting) In general the game is very restricted and automatic. I could go on. You would have a point if you talked about PES 5/6 being better than PES 2008/9/10 but PES 2011 blows it way out of the water. The main difference for me is the individuality in PES 2011 is in a different universe to what i was back in PES 6 and 5 even!

Your talking about consoles which can easily run games like GTA4 which are mind boggling complex compared to a football game,

Come on :laugh: your comparing a sandbox game to a sports game. You proved yourself wrong straight away! The only sports game which puts PES to shame in terms of development is NBA 2K11,that's it! Sports games a notoriously hard to replicate compared to sandbox and adventure games where there is far more freedom in terms of development and your not constrained to releasing 1 game every year in the series.

How long do you think GTA VI took? Do they have a heavy demand in terms of having to try and simulate not only human behavior in terms of physics and metal which is hard enough in itself but trying to replicate 22 players to perform on a football pitch? Compare that to GTA VI where you control 1 person at at time and the whole game is built up around that guy.

Totally different games, If you understand PES 2011 especially you will see even this game is mind boggling in terms of how the AI is programmed and it's not exactly perfect is it!

indeed take the GTA series, its gone from being a top down 2d game to a virtual 3d city simulator, thats progress, every incarnation Rockstar pushes the envelope and has improved it each time,

That's more than Ten Years of development and also they have a lot more freedom compared to football games!

but dont try to suggest its hit a technical ceiling cause thats laughable.

I think whats laughable is that you compared a Sandbox game to a Sports game in terms of development

Sorry thats wrong, if you do that online it simply requires someone rushing at your from an angle of 45 degrees or more and using the square button and you'll be disposed quicker than you can blink.

:laugh: My god this a worse fail than what Amateur did!

If i tell you to press R2 and hold the left stick to the OPPOSITE direction to where he's approaching you! How will he be running at you at a 45 degree angle.

I will leave you to work that out yourself.

Be careful your so eager to disagree with me you didn't even take notice of what i said!

This kinda proves my point, ive never said the game cant be enjoyable, indeed when you play another true footie fan it can be great if you both play within the realms of reality, but the fact that its so easy to exploit and ruin the experience with minimal effort (see MLO) proves how flawed the current system is, honestly I think they should skip next year and build a whole new game imo

starting afresh will be a disaster.

Building for what they have which is brilliant imo is the way forward until the PS4 arrives!

I don't have trouble winning on this game online, i don't think it's easy to exploit at all. I'd say there a re no major exploits in the game online. There are minor unbalances (through ball is a problem) All that ridiculous cheap play is easy to stop, i have little issues beating those guys! Those fools on MLO are easily beatable, i just can't be arsed to dedicate time to it

What i like about the game one you truly understand it, and it's my attitude online is when you get beaten by an cheap player, it's because you were shit and deserved to get beaten by him. The only exception is if here was any lag

(Quite a few games online lag as well

)

Avelives · Nov 19, 2010

klashman said:
Where your wrong is this game has to be made to the specifications of the xbox 360! Yes the PS3 is a much better more powerful system (Gran Turismo 5 etc) But the Xbox must be able to handle the game! So that's my point

They can't release the game so the engine it runs on is more superior on the PS3 compared to the Xbox 360. It's not just bad politically it's simple you can only focus on making ONE game per year.

To me games these days many games especially on the 360, look like they have hit the ceiling in terms of groundbreaking development! Look at Assassins creed, black ops, Bad Company etc.. all nice additions to their predecessors but nothing groundbreaking like we saw 2-3 years ago.

You do realise the two systems arent that different dont you, except for the blu-ray compatibility, oh and they release this on the PS2 still, and yet it can still manage to run the (your own words) mind boggling complex AI, granted some features and graphics are worse but the gameplay on pitch is almost identical.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-Evolution-Soccer-2011-PS2/dp/B00403MIF8

Can a PS2 run GTA4 or Assassins Creed or Black Ops?? No it cant cause they are to advanced not just graphically but processing power wise, PES at its heart if you downgrade the graphics still runs on a 12+ year old machince... yeah thats progress.

klashman said:
I mean you can even go back to 1990-1991, I mean compare the sonic games (1 and 2) to the football games at that time Adventures/sandbox games always look better, play better and appear more advanced than sports games

Thats cause unlike sports games their primary market are hardcore rpg fans, not the more casual gamer into sports titles who will pony up the cash year after year for minor tweaks and roster updates, thats not cause sports games are harder to make, if you think its more difficult to make a game like PES than say a game like Total War then your a retard.

klashman said:
Come on :laugh: your comparing a sandbox game to a sports game. You proved yourself wrong straight away! The only sports game which puts PES to shame in terms of development is NBA 2K11,that's it! Sports games a notoriously hard to replicate compared to sandbox and adventure games where there is far more freedom in terms of development and your not constrained to releasing 1 game every year in the series.

When where they notoriously hard, they are notoriously lazy developers who make them (EA, Konami) that doesnt make them notoriously hard to make, if EA and Konami didnt have a strangehold on all the major team sports licenses youd see alot more of them.

klashman said:
Totally different games, If you understand PES 2011 especially you will see even this game is mind boggling in terms of how the AI is programmed and it's not exactly perfect is it!

No it isnt its very simplistic, which is why people can thrash the AI on top player after a few weeks, dont be a dick...

klashman said:
I think whats laughable is that you compared a Sandbox game to a Sports game in terms of development

Why? They are both games nobody says Konami have to release a new game each year, they could release DLC roster updates each year for a reduced fee and work on 2 or 3 year new engine cycles like other games, but fact is they dont extract as much money from us that way, never mind making a quality product.

klashman said:
:laugh: My god this a worse fail than what Amateur did!

If i tell you to press R2 and hold the left stick to the OPPOSITE direction to where he's approaching you! How will he be running at you at a 45 degree angle.

Ok and the AI players who are pressuring you from the other side?? Id love to see a video of you doing this online in a competitive match or against the AI, show me or it didnt happen frankly

klashman said:
Be careful your so eager to disagree with me you didn't even take notice of what i said!

klashman said:
I don't have trouble winning on this game online, i don't think it's easy to exploit at all. I'd say there a re no major exploits in the game online. There are minor unbalances (through ball is a problem) All that ridiculous cheap play is easy to stop, i have little issues beating those guys! Those fools on MLO are easily beatable, i just can't be arsed to dedicate time to it

I dont have trouble winning either, thats not the issue, anyone can win online cause its about exploiting match engine weaknesses, nothing more.

klashman said:
What i like about the game one you truly understand it, and it's my attitude online is when you get beaten by an cheap player, it's because you were shit and deserved to get beaten by him. The only exception is if here was any lag (Quite a few games online lag as well )

So when someone insta passes to an uber forward and 1st time shots it 10 times a match (no one can stop this tactic with any regularity) and scores thats because im shit is it, or when a through ball dribbles between my paralysed defenders and my goalie fails to pick it up, or when someone bangs in repeated triple circle crosses to score own goals of your prone unresponsive defense... I could go on but we both know your talking bollocks.

LOL-ness · Nov 19, 2010

I won't participate in the discussion regarding reaching a ceiling in developing games for PS3 and XBox 360 because one thing I know is that all games are made on a PC. Which can only mean that consoles are the reason why I can't have very very good quality games to play with on my PC in the first place

(Disclaimer: This is coming from a guy who mains PC games)

Avelives said:
Why? They are both games nobody says Konami have to release a new game each year, they could release DLC roster updates each year for a reduced fee and work on 2 or 3 year new engine cycles like other games, but fact is they dont extract as much money from us that way, never mind making a quality product.

Usually, the best way to do this is to have two teams who leapfrog each other, so that games still get released every year, but each team gets one more year to improve their engine build, codes...etc.

A good example of this is EA's approach to the arcade racing series "Need for Speed". Currently, two teams are working on the title: Criterion Games and Slightly Mad Studios. Criterion mainly focuses on racing games that has a "cops vs. drivers" theme in it, like the newly released reboot of NFS Hot Pursuit. Meanwhile, Slightly Mad Studios will focus more on motorsports, bringing us titles such as NFS Shift and it's upcoming sequel.

Activision also does it with their franchise "Call of Duty". One team (Infinity Ward) focuses on the "Modern Warfare" line and the other (Treyarch) on "WWII shooters + Black Ops".

I understand that Konami may not be big enough to do something like that, seeing as it's core business contains not only the "Winning Eleven/PES" series, but also "Metal Gear", "DDR", "Love Plus" (in a way), as well as non-gaming related businesses. But if they could do leapfrogging like how EA and Activision studios work, maybe we'll still get annual titles, but perhaps you'll notice two distinct styles starting to diverge, while maintaining enough development time to create quality games by giving each team 1 more year of development time.

EDIT: Grammar Nazi alert: It's "you're", not "your". No.1 grammatical error in any Internet forums.

Amateur · Nov 19, 2010

Avelives said:
Show me a game online or against the AI where play is slow or almost stationery during midfield build up, like the best teams play, it doesnt happen, you might be able to replicate a form of it, but its woefully ineffective compared to the rush and push tactics which are 100 times easier to implement.

Rush and push tactics, cheap tricks and thrills, which are 100 times easier and 100 times more effective than attempting to play with some slice of realism; which is why PES11 is all about rush and push, all the time.

As I have mentioned about a hundred times at this point, this is the problem: the left analogue stick always affects and determines the direction in which you run with the ball, as well as the distance covered with the ball.

If you analyze how the mentioned fact affects: dribbling, man-marking, passing, and shooting; you will understand why it is such a massive restriction.

My guess is, that in a few years time, perhaps sooner than expected: EA Sports will once again take the lead, by changing how the left analogue stick functions, and with it, implementing a whole new dimension of on-the-spot physics.

This will expose how utterly outdated PES11 and FIFA11 are; and it will force an immediate response from Konami.

Konami will then copy EA Sports, which is precisely what they have done so far in this generation of consoles: sliders, right analogue stick gimmicks, rush and push defensive system, a power bar for passing the ball, more directions for passing, "speed stars", pretty animations with no substance where it matters the most, etc, etc.

Anyways, it is most certainly ridiculous, how certain people have attacked me for having an opinion, let alone when my argument revolves around facts and facts only.

It's their loss.

PS -- klashman and Football777 are idiots, you should not waste your time on them; you make sense and you use logic, they will never agree with you.

Avelives · Nov 19, 2010

Amateur said:
Konami will then copy EA Sports, which is precisely what they have done so far in this generation of consoles: sliders, right analogue stick gimmicks, rush and push defensive system, a power bar for passing the ball, more directions for passing, "speed stars", pretty animations with no substance where it matters the most, etc, etc.

I totally agree with this, ive never been a fifa fan not even back in the day prior to pro evos existence. So for me (and many others) Pro Evos more structured and considered approach to football was a godsend, this version feels like Konami literally sat down with FIFA10 and made a list of things to copy without any regard for the intrinsic feel that made their game unique, they are in danger if they dont reverse the process of just becoming a poor mans fifa, which is kind of like being a butler to a tramp imo

klashman · Nov 19, 2010

Avelives said:
You do realise the two systems arent that different dont you, except for the blu-ray compatibility,

:unsure:

where you going with this? I told you in the last post the Xbox can't handle games like Gran Turismo 5!

oh and they release this on the PS2 still, and yet it can still manage to run the (your own words) mind boggling complex AI, granted some features and graphics are worse but the gameplay on pitch is almost identical.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pro-Evolution-Soccer-2011-PS2/dp/B00403MIF8

Can a PS2 run GTA4 or Assassins Creed or Black Ops?? No it cant cause they are to advanced not just graphically but processing power wise, PES at its heart if you downgrade the graphics still runs on a 12+ year old machince... yeah thats progress.

This started as a decent debate but this has now descended into a farce.

This website is dead in terms of proper debate about PES, i can see why it's regarded a s a joke now, it's a shame

Avelives you have NO balance to your argument at all You never see anything from other peoples views. In your opinion, everything should revolve around what you think. That's your downfall in terms of debate. It's why you have come up with such a terribly structured and self centered, ignorant reply.

Now Your saying this game here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGDZEYQm7f4&feature=related
Is the same as this game here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvxW8E-cImc

PES 2011 is a totally new game, PES 2011 on the PS2 just PES 6 with new kit's

Thats cause unlike sports games their primary market are hardcore rpg fans,not the more casual gamer into sports titles who will pony up the cash year after year for minor tweaks and roster updates, thats not cause sports games are harder to make,

Nope! if your talking PC only games yes, but Black Ops, Assassins creed etc are built for casuals! Pretty much all console games are casual friendly, that's just how society is these days!

if you think its more difficult to make a game like PES than say a game like Total War then your a retard.

Another huge fail again.

Your comparing a game BUILT to get the most of the PC to a Console game built for console specifications!

That's just pathetic! Your not even taking into account how the developers of Total War aren't bound to try and recreate all the fundamentals and aspects of a Sport, but they in their aims to create a real time strategic game have the 'freedom' to also create their 'own fantasy rules' which nobody will complain about!

When where they notoriously hard, they are notoriously lazy developers who make them (EA, Konami) that doesnt make them notoriously hard to make, if EA and Konami didnt have a strangehold on all the major team sports licenses youd see alot more of them.

Not really, I'd love to see more football games from different developers but hell go back to 2000-2004 where you had games like this is football and club football (Sony, Codemasters) Which bad compared to crappy FIFA even at the time let alone PES. The only game that got Near PES was football kingdom and that was still pretty arcade!

Now MAYBE you can see, football games are not exactly easy are they? Also how much money do you think is needed to make them? How many millions do you think EA shell out on their mammoth motion capture studios and hiring Ronadinho, Rooney etc.. to perform for them? Tats what it takes to get the animations to that level of quality you see in FIFA (shame the rest of the game is total shit)

No it isnt its very simplistic, which is why people can thrash the AI on top player after a few weeks, dont be a dick...

If you persist with Barcelona or Chelsea, Inter etc.. an play for 2-3 weeks on top player, if your not thrashing smaller teams on top player or at least beating them well then you should stop playing the game. You supposed to win with teams like that! Play with West Brom however and well, good luck trying to score away from home

Why? They are both games

That's the only similarity. I mean do i have to explain to you like i have already?

nobody says Konami have to release a new game each year,they could release DLC roster updates each year for a reduced fee and work on 2 or 3 year new engine cycles like other games, but fact is they dont extract as much money from us that way, never mind making a quality product.

Well they don't, i wouldn't mind that too but the fact is they don't so i don't see where your point is again!Your harping on at something which hasn't ever happened and isn't likely to happen.

Ok and the AI players who are pressuring you from the other side??

Oh for CRYING OUT LOAD! Are you stupid! What you you expect to shield the ball from two players coming at you from opposite angles! Don't you see what you need to do in that situation is do the NORMAL thing which is get rid of it. When Carew is holding the ball up for Aston Villa, do you think he WAITS there for someone to tackle him?

Id love to see a video of you doing this online in a competitive match

I do it all the time with Steven Fletcher in my online league! In fact just add me on PSN: Klashman69

No smart comment i see

I dont have trouble winning either, thats not the issue, anyone can win online cause its about exploiting match engine weaknesses, nothing more.

So when someone insta passes to an uber forward and 1st time shots it 10 times a match (no one can stop this tactic with any regularity) and scores thats because im shit is it

YES! You are! Why the hell do you think you have some divine right to beat everyone you 'believe' is shit? Why don't you learn how to use the tactics and man marking properly and structure you formation to counter his. Online is very tacitness, can't you see from the layout, how easy it is to move players, set a marker, team styles etc???

You seem to think you know whats best so you believe you have a divine right to beat everyone and when you concede you just blame the game without looking at what you could have done to stop the opponent!

Every online game has 'noobs' or people who play crap football. Whats great about this game is you can stop these guys by playing good, realsitic football!

Stormrider · Nov 19, 2010

klashman makes a lot of sense. A lot of what you say basically echoes my views hehe. Personally though I don't think the xbox 360 or ps3 has peaked for football games or any games for that matter. I could be wrong but I believe it's a fact that no game so far has even tapped into more than half of the ps3's power. It's true for cross platform games the xbox 360 is holding back some ps3 games but that's only in terms of content and graphics thanks to it's wimpy 8.5gb media although the 360 is making the most of what it has so far with the same games looking much better compared to ps3. Gameplay wise there shouldn't be too much of a difference because both systems are very similar in terms of power.

It does seem like Konami is starting to get there though. Pes still has quite a ways to go before anyone can claim the AI can't be improved any further. I kinda expect drastic improvements with 2012 or 2013.

Avelives said:
I totally agree with this, ive never been a fifa fan not even back in the day prior to pro evos existence. So for me (and many others) Pro Evos more structured and considered approach to football was a godsend, this version feels like Konami literally sat down with FIFA10 and made a list of things to copy without any regard for the intrinsic feel that made their game unique, they are in danger if they dont reverse the process of just becoming a poor mans fifa, which is kind of like being a butler to a tramp imo

Ditto. Pes this year feels very Fifa like it's scary. At least the players and kits still look nice which constantly reminds me that I'm still playing Pes lol. Hopefully this upcoming patch will fix the shooting enough to make it feel more Pes like again and make it play less like Fifa.

I'm afraid to say..

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