I have had my last straw with PES '16!
- Thread starter Clint_W_25
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Clint_W_25
Registered User
Thank you.
Alright I'll keep the game until next weeks data pack update and see what it's about.
The Dude
His Dudeness
I wish they would bring back turn off first transfer window. Also bring back transfer frequency which could be set to low normal high. Hasnt had these options in years.
fatehasfans
Registered User
Personally I think 16 looks the part but its all fur-coat and no knickers.
Doesn't 'feel' at all right and I think the play itself is really disjointed - yes there are some nice realistic touches in 16 that are not in 15 but I think 15 is a much more solid and playable game.
16 just doesn't have that weight of satisfaction that 15 has. When I score cracker goals I just think "meh", the weight and speed of the game is a mess and the options are more linear than ever.
I love 15 but 16 is a step back to an extent. Shame really as Konami really could have done something amazing with what they had built upon with 15 but sadly they didn't.
Doesn't 'feel' at all right and I think the play itself is really disjointed - yes there are some nice realistic touches in 16 that are not in 15 but I think 15 is a much more solid and playable game.
16 just doesn't have that weight of satisfaction that 15 has. When I score cracker goals I just think "meh", the weight and speed of the game is a mess and the options are more linear than ever.
I love 15 but 16 is a step back to an extent. Shame really as Konami really could have done something amazing with what they had built upon with 15 but sadly they didn't.
SportGameFan
Registered User
What's wrong with that combination? Knickers just get in the way! :innocent:
who
Registered User
Yea, like in those PES 6 days. It would reduce some crazy stuff going on to an extent. Almost everything that is transfer related is pure fantasy. Prices, offers that you get from other clubs, AI transfers... Sergio Ramos can go to Barca and Rooney can go to Liverpool in few seconds, I guess.
PES Russia
Registered User
CONFIRMED: The article "PES 2017: What do the fans want?" will be released and sent to the developers on 2015/12/4.
who
Registered User
As the last time, I just hope all of this information will reach the developers and they will actually pay some attention to it, since there is a gap between fans and Konami. A huge gap.
PES Russia, thanks for your never ending enthusiasm. I`ve already took holiday until PES 17.
PES Russia, thanks for your never ending enthusiasm. I`ve already took holiday until PES 17.
CONFIRMED: The article "PES 2017: What do the fans want?" will be released and sent to the developers on 2015/12/4.
Really? :shocking:
..and should we expect Konami to read and act on this article?
Maybe, just maybe if we all lived on another planet ....say Saturn, this may be possible.
But as long as we are still on Earth, I bet my left nut ...........not a chance in hell.
Unbelievable. :no:
Amateur
Registered User
I'll never understand how some people find the "challenge" above enjoyable. Playing with small teams doesn't change the fact that the core elements of the gameplay are inherently outdated; in fact, playing with small teams further exposes how outdated the game design is (therefore making the video game more boring than it would be if you played with bigger teams that are supposed to offer more variables of entertainment).
Think about it this way -- would you prefer to watch Zidane play; or would it be "more rewarding" to watch some random guy from Rayo Vallecano play?
Obviously, it is more entertaining to watch a genius at work. And really, that's exactly how a video game *should* work. If the video game is unremarkable enough that playing with the big teams is boring enough that you'd feel the need to artificially increase the difficulty level of the whole game by playing with small teams... Guess what? Playing with the small teams isn't going to fix any of the inherent flaws, in fact, playing with the small teams will only further expose how limited/outdated the game design is.
With a game that actually works correctly -- that would work. Playing with one of the weaker character (one of the weaker characters in the Mortal Kombat franchise, for example) would work. Because then, you wouldn't be artificially elevating the difficulty level; but rather, the level would actually increase in terms of difficulty. That being said; PES and FIFA do not work like that -- these are quasi-simulation games, based on stats, and currently out of balance regarding how much control said stats should be allowed to have over the game.
So when you play with the smaller teams, that actually makes the flaws more apparent, because then you have to play around the stats-based script that determines that a smaller team should have a more difficult time finding the goal. In the case of PES and FIFA, said script overrides whatever "skill" you think you possess. So essentially, you end up artificially elevating the difficulty, just so that you can play a supposedly "more rewarding" but definitely more dumber version of the game. And that's what I don't get... I don't get how making the game dumber, somehow makes it a more rewarding or "challenging" experience.
It's actually disturbing, how so many people are completely impervious to what "entertainment" is actually supposed to feel like. And in saying so, I don't mean to say that entertainment is or should be supposed to be a very specific thing; rather, what I mean to say is that, if playing with the "big teams" (and therefore enjoying the primary selling point of the game) is "boring" enough that you feel playing with the smaller teams somehow makes the game more bearable -- that's as conclusive an argument as any, that there's something seriously wrong with the very foundation of the game design.
I can get that you'd want to play with smaller teams from time to time; if anything to mix things up a bit. But when that's the main reason why you buy the game... I just can't reconcile those two sentiments; I can't reconcile not enjoying the biggest selling point of the game, and somehow enjoying playing with teams that further expose why the biggest selling point of the game failed in the first place.
Playing PES16 (or FIFA16) with the small teams, in cinematic terms, is the same thing as watching (upon recommendation) one of the top five episodes of some talked about television program -- not liking at all said television program, and then deciding that it would be "more of a challenge" to watch the more uneventful/boring episodes of a television program that you don't actually like in the first place.
If you willingly admit that experiencing the biggest/primary selling point of the game, isn't rewarding nor joyful in your opinion -- then you really shouldn't be fooling yourself that a dumber but more difficult version of something that you don't like, somehow becomes something that you find "rewarding."
In any case, disgruntled fans need to talk with their money. They continue buying into the hype machine, when it was abundantly obvious from the many pre-release videos, that the game is still running on the same old outdated design. PES and FIFA both feel like old news -- both are in need of a significant revamp.
Domingo1893
Registered User
I actually have the impression that you're not a fan of the game of football itself, cause most of the resentiments (I don't know whether that word exists in english, it's used in french and german, maybe it should be prejudice) you have are based on the principle that only what is best is enjoyable and worthwhile, that's not the way the average human brain works!
SayHiToBob
Registered User
I'm not going to write an article.. But I believe that PES 2015 was an improvement, at least over PES 2014 but for some reason I believe Konami just gave up on PES 2016.. There are areas which have become significantly worse.
I can easily just go through defenses in Superstar level. Sure not against Real Madrid or Barcelona (I haven't tested, yet.) But the fact that it happens is just bad.
I can easily just go through defenses in Superstar level. Sure not against Real Madrid or Barcelona (I haven't tested, yet.) But the fact that it happens is just bad.
Clint_W_25
Registered User
I'm not even going to respond to his post.
Apparently he's confused or has a misconception between a video game and real life.
I clearly stated I don't use big teams because it's no fun to always dominate and there's no challenge.
I cannot understand, how such a simple statement on my part, warrants an entire epistle or blog to be discussed on:huh:
fatehasfans
Registered User
Loved this post, finally someone who shares the same thoughts as myself. The core is outdated its as simple as that, and yes it amazes me too how people will 'tweak' the game in an attempt to avoid this fact.
Your points are all very valid and well thought out.
Like I mentioned before in one of my posts, I think the game is more style than substance and that is clearly enough to convince the masses to buy. I wish we could remove all the consumerist aspects around the game and get back to the game itself - I don't care whether Ronaldo/Messi/Neymar... or any of the other 'celebrities' are in the game but a lot of kids do and utilising their star-power sadly does work in terms of sales. I think the tragedy behind this cycle is that most of the money goes on the licenses and branding and not enough is spent on the game itself which is why we are seeing 'recycled' versions of the game each year with minimal changes (with exception of 14) and the same core problems existing within them.
I can clearly see the same linear movement, pathing and AI issues contained in 13, 14, 15 and now 16. Yet most of the squabbles are over aesthetics stuff such as kits or teams (the latter is fair enough but with an editor that wouldn't be a problem if the game was amazing) and this diminishes the chances of the core problems areas being changed.
Sadly, a large portion of the world's population are stupid and along with kids these are the people Konami want buying because they are the easiest to convince. Just slap Ronaldo on the front and you've got their attention. When it comes to problems the demands become largely aesthetic anything from the stadiums not being represented realistically enough or goalkeeper gloves being orange instead of green, meanwhile the game suffers from horrible scripting which goes largely unnoticed so doesn't get changed as Konami will look at the problems on the forums and think "we just need to improve the graphics and make the goalkeeper gloves brighter - that'll keep them happy!" Ok so I'm ranting a little but the voice of the masses is largely idiotic and it's ruining any chance this game has to improving. We need more people like Amateur.
Clint_W_25
Registered User
It doesn't matter if the game is poor or not; any video or sports game I play, whether it's PES, FIFA or NBA 2K, I use smaller / decent teams because it's enjoyable FOR ME!
It feels more worthwhile winning or finishing top 5 etc. with a smaller / decent team as oppose to scoring 4 goals every single game with ease with the top teams, Barcelona, Bayern, Real Madrid and winning every trophy; as oppose to building a team for a number a seasons and then finally win a trophy like a Europa league for example.
So I'm not understand these long epistles by both of you, over such a simple statement on my part? Because I love using smaller teams?
If you all want to use the BEST TEAMS and win every game 4-0 or 5-0 and buy the most expensive players and win all the trophies with ease, that's no problem! Do what you want!
If I want to use smaller teams and develop young players and build them into a proper team, let me do what I want. I really don't see what your issue is?
It feels more worthwhile winning or finishing top 5 etc. with a smaller / decent team as oppose to scoring 4 goals every single game with ease with the top teams, Barcelona, Bayern, Real Madrid and winning every trophy; as oppose to building a team for a number a seasons and then finally win a trophy like a Europa league for example.
So I'm not understand these long epistles by both of you, over such a simple statement on my part? Because I love using smaller teams?
If you all want to use the BEST TEAMS and win every game 4-0 or 5-0 and buy the most expensive players and win all the trophies with ease, that's no problem! Do what you want!
If I want to use smaller teams and develop young players and build them into a proper team, let me do what I want. I really don't see what your issue is?
OptimusPrime
Registered User
I believe what the two guys meant..and I AGREE 100% with them,..is that more people do what you do because they are driven towards it due to the"mechanics"of this game. Where the differene is; is that you do it because of PERSONAL preference, which is very rare, but the majority does it because of the pile of shit that KONAMI is turning this lovely game into year after year
But what can you expect, if you release a game with OUTDATED rosters running all over the place that means that U DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE FANS, BUT LIKE I SAID IN A PREVIOUS POST...they only care about MARKET SHARE, TURNOVER AND GROSS MARGIN..
They clearly rushed it and said fuck it..we need to do it otherwise FIFA will profit and we will be fucked regarding Market Share.
KONAMI is just reheating the soup .....
Clint_W_25
Registered User
Point taken.
I myself is still trying so hard to love PES 2016. I have a love / hate relationship with it. In fact, I was about to sell it; but decided to wait until after the update to see how the game plays.
Overall, I am highly disappointed with Konami and his development team in this year's release, after such a promising / improved effort with PES 2015.
Amateur
Registered User
PES is not an accurate representation of real life football (or real life anything, for that matter), though, is it?
So how exactly can you even begin to form the opinion that I am not a fan of the game of football itself?
The game of football, is not the simplistic arcade action that PES or FIFA offer. Football is a tactical game; PES and FIFA are not tactical at all. You are essentially saying that because I am not a fan of PES16, that you get the impression that I'm probably not a fan of the sport itself -- and that's irrational.
In any case, do I sometimes enjoy watching two mid-level (but promising) players or teams go at it? Yes. And not only "sometimes," but many times, as a matter of fact. But I know in my heart that watching a genius at play is simply more entertaining for the true fans of the sport -- this is also true for music, art, everything; as far as I'm concerned.
And I absolutely consider myself a true fan of the sport. That's precisely why I don't enjoy the "ping pong" arcade game that both PES and FIFA currently are. And playing with the big teams, or with the small teams, just does nothing to change the fact that the design of the game is extremely outdated (not to mention extremely flawed).
Furthermore, PES is a stats-based video game. So if you can't enjoy, as in "it does nothing for you," playing with the bigger teams that allow you to do (as per the statistical design) a wider range of skills; if you can't enjoy said primary selling point -- I can't find any reasonable argument by which to argue the case that you'd genuinely enjoy playing with the smaller teams.
Maybe more "challenging" it might be, if you play with a mid-table or modest team. But again, that type of "challenge" is not what I aim to get from a video game; video games are expensive!! I want to be able to genuinely enjoy the design of the game, and only after that priority is thoroughly satisfied, can we talk about how difficult or "challenging" the game could be.
But if you don't enjoy the core design of the game (and do note, that not enjoying playing with the big teams, is the same exact thing as not enjoying the core design of the game), and you still somehow believe that you genuinely enjoy playing with small teams because it's "more challenging" in your opinion... Then, honestly, I do think you're playing a game that you don't genuinely enjoy playing.
NOTE
As far as video games go, I'd like to be able to play with Romario, Valderrama, and Figo, on the same team; and the rest of the players could be average or "above average but not star quality" type players, but ultimately, I'd just like to be able to play with one or two genius players in certain positions of the pitch; it'd be very entertaining if a good mix between RPG and "live" play could be established.
So at no point, was it my intention to argue that "big teams should (by design) be the most rewarding teams." I could understand if someone interpreted my words like that, but that really wasn't the point I was trying to convey.
Instead, what I meant to say is that currently, the core system makes it impossible to experience (regardless of your personal opinion about it) what makes a player like Iniesta or Zidane "enjoyable to watch" by majority opinion. The game design makes that impossible. And without that, you simply cannot capture around 60% of the factors that make football such a captivating sport.
And of course, video games have limits. But PES and FIFA are so far away from said limits... that talking about "video games are not real life" is thoroughly unnecessary given how far off the mark said video games currently are.
So that's why I get bored when I play with big teams in PES or FIFA. It's not that it's "easy to dominate" with them. It's that it's "boring to do anything with them." And that's also the reason as to why I get even more bored when I play with the small teams (because the statistical script makes it even more predictable than it already is when you play with the big teams).
Montpellier 1990/1991 was a modest mid-table team. But that team had Carlos Valderrama and Laurent Blanc in it (world class but also "entertaining" players at their respective positions). That's the type of team that I'd probably enjoy the most, in a video game.
But like I mentioned before, PES lacks the three dimensional game design to capture why players like Valderrama or Andres Iniesta or Eden Hazard are so elusive with the ball at their feet, in a way that still makes it possible to stop them, or possible to fail to stop them, without feeling consistently cheated by the statistical script/design.
The three dimensional design of PES (or FIFA) is too imprecise for the game to feel consistent. Two essential differences are not recognized by the PES (and FIFA) three dimensional design: (1) the range of mobility when looking towards a specific direction, that is, the range of movement that can be conjured/employed when looking towards the west (or any other specific direction), without necessarily having to stop looking towards the west (or whatever the fixed direction might be); and (2) the range of mobility when not "fixed-into" any specific direction.
In simpler terms: direct the left analog towards the north, hold it there, and then try to direct the left analog towards the west -- the ball carrier would no longer be looking towards the north. If mobility is that restrictive in its very design, then how much control do you really have over the game?
The "right analog + L1" would be a good option for "movement without changing the direction that the player is facing." Then, it would be easy/intuitive to complement between the left analog and the right analog, using the complete range of movement of the right analog in order to manipulate movements without necessarily changing the direction that the player is looking at.
But of course, PES and FIFA still use the right analog the same way they use the left analog -- the right analog conjures non-subtle-copy-pasted-movements (read: copy-pasted drag back animation; the rainbow flick; the something else that plays out in a copy-pasted-manner; etc), as opposed to more subtle/variable, improvised in real time, as opposed to copy-pasted animations that play out in the same exact manner, movements.
For example, the right analog is used to conjure the infamous "rainbow" flick that (as far as real life goes) no world class player has actually used in over a decade. If a "u-turn" movement via the right analog conjures a rainbow flick, that pretty much tells you that the right analog is not precise enough (in its design relative to the game design) to offer the type of subtle movements that I described a few moments ago. That "u-turn" consumes a lot of the available space on the analog. Whereas an "L1 + Right Analog" system, would be far more expansive:
(a) Right Analog (hold before pressing the L1 button): slightly towards, mid-point towards, or dramatically towards, a given direction,
(a) L1: conjures slightly different variations of the animations that each direction (north, west east) has to offer.
(b) L1 (hold before using the right analog): offers variations that can be used in tandem with the "a" type animations.
(b) Right Analog: slightly towards, mid-point towards, or dramatically towards, any given direction,
We should've seen something similar to the above system by now, but instead, we still have to believe that "rainbow flicks" and "copy-pasted drag backs" are the type of things that a PS4 console is capable of.
Bottom line: it's an extremely restrictive system mobility-wise (hence the "linear" design of everything), and from a statistical point of view, it forces the computer into having to consistently cheat the premise of the game, so that the game appears to be playable instead of how it would look like (unplayable) without all the "scripting" that takes place.
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So anyway, been away from the forums scene for a while but I see nothing changes. Ockrass and Amateur still caning the long posts I see. Respect to both though, surprised you still have the energy to posts these million word essays like I used to. You prob don't remember the debates back in the day. Anyway.
Keeping it simple I'm a little confused this year. I see the majority of the main reviewers are giving PES high ratings compared to FIFA, although that could be a big brown envelope pay off from Konami this year, who knows. Also the overall feedback from the masses is that PES is the much better game this year; in fact FIFA is getting caned on metacritc. But, what I'm interested in is the hardcore fans. I'm getting the impression some maybe thinking that FIFA is more simulation this year....maybe?
Anyway, thoughts briefly on the two as I have one purchase for the kid this year (and sneakily ME) etc etc. Overall, which is the better purchase. Fully aware of the age old yadda yadda with one game not having licences blah blah, but I'm on about the gameplay primarily.
Keeping it simple I'm a little confused this year. I see the majority of the main reviewers are giving PES high ratings compared to FIFA, although that could be a big brown envelope pay off from Konami this year, who knows. Also the overall feedback from the masses is that PES is the much better game this year; in fact FIFA is getting caned on metacritc. But, what I'm interested in is the hardcore fans. I'm getting the impression some maybe thinking that FIFA is more simulation this year....maybe?
Anyway, thoughts briefly on the two as I have one purchase for the kid this year (and sneakily ME) etc etc. Overall, which is the better purchase. Fully aware of the age old yadda yadda with one game not having licences blah blah, but I'm on about the gameplay primarily.
Amateur
Registered User
To be fair, I've posted like two PES-related posts in the past two years.
I get the impression that the "main reviewers" have markedly low standards these days. Particularly when it comes to sport simulation games, it seems as though anything not entirely helpless will be readily regarded as an "ok" game. Case in point: the hype that 2K Sports gets, as well as the hype that PES16 is getting.
I've pretty much given up on sports video games.