fick
Registered User
Unlikely in any legal form and we don't allow any warez discussion on here, so I guess it's a cash only deal...
My HUGE PES2012 v FIFA12 analysis
- Thread starter techboy11
- Start date
Unlikely in any legal form and we don't allow any warez discussion on here, so I guess it's a cash only deal...
markcross
Banned
hahaha nice try abu u lil rascal u
Abu I think you're getting confused here along with lots of other people about the speed issue.
That game was quick tonight, I will post numerous posts within the next two hours after things have uploaded to prove it. Where PES/FIFA all other footy games in the past can't replicate is the natural changes of pace of a human being. By that I mean - when the ball gets rolled out to a left back for example he has all the time in the world so he just barely jogs, may be even walks a little like Luiz was doing a lot of the first half. This is because there is no pressure on him.
Now with PES/FIFA etc you either have run (normal analogue) or you have sprint. So the only two speed variations you are going to get is run (jog) and sprint full tilt. Now PES for example CANNOT replicate exact changes in game speed from the human controlled played every second, I don't think it's even possible (this is where our friend AMATEUR COMES IN where he talks about space and controlling the actual speed of every player perfectly).
So you will never be able to replicate true real second changes in game dynamics because you only have run and sprint, so the whole spectrum going fro standing still to running/sprinting isn't there. To implemenet such a control system would be hard I think, and certainly too difficult for your average Joe (like me).
This is where people complain that PES is too fast, when in fact it isn't if you adjust the settings accordingly. The fact is players in real life are lightening fast, it's just PES hasn't the animations or transitions to match the moving player, so the first thing to note is that everything looks much quicker than what it really is because the animations are so horrid.
Leading on from my argument about speed, because you haven't the spectrum of slower speeds that players IRL have, all you can do really is gauge an overall gameplay speed - so that's why sometimes PES appears faster in certain situations, although may appear slower than in IRL in others. For example you set your overall gamespeed so that the game generally plays nicely, but then you have the ball going like a balloon and the player response slow. Look at someone like Walcott IRL over 20 yards he is lightning, from a standing position.
Now onto tonight's game, the game tonight was generally fast. Fast interchanges, fast passing etc.
And here's the clips to prove it.
I'll also be touching on other aspects within the clips if I feel is relevant in terms of other things.
SO WITH THESE CLIPS I'LL DISPEL YOUR SUGGESTIONS AND SHOW YOU THAT
A) The game was generally fast and open (early, mid and late)
B) The defensive units are EXACTLY like PES
C) The pressure in PES is absolutely spot on (if you want to mirror real life)
D) The speed of the players and the quick passing are like PES (or at least the clips that I have been showing on here)
Now I did want to put these clips in some sort of time order, but they have just come up uploading on YouTube any how, so you'll have to bear with me.
FIRST CLIP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2lNeJBv4q8
Firstly look how fast the right winger is of Chelsea, tight ball control, lightning taking his man on. He loses the ball near enough four seconds, and Leverkusen break fast. At 0.20 the Lev guy loses possession and Chelsea counter. At 0.26 the long ball and snuffed out and Lev have possession back. At 0.30 the ball comes to the guy on the halfway line. NOTE - there is no MIDFIELD BATTLE because the game has been dispersed. In 30 seconds of footage we've had three counter attacks LOL!!
Stop it 0.30! Look at the Lev guy on the halfway line without the ball, he is the one that will be the active AI, in FIFA he'd just be standing around holding his dick. IRL he'll bomb forward. 0.34 nobody tracks him, Chelsea are caught out of their defensive unit comfort zone and so they have to re-organise. HOW DO THEY DO THIS? Someone is going to have to jockey-hold (like PES). At 0.36 watch how Alex contains his man (like PES), giving time for the defense to re-organise.
THIS IS MY POINT ABOUT FIFA AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH -
In FIFA Alex would be on his own because the defensive AI is so dumb it doesn't know what to do apart from leave the ENTIRE DEFENCE one on one. In FIFA, the CPU will have a better than 50 per cent chance of skinning Alex here and then getting through one on one. Watch what happens ala PES, Alex contains his man and then TWO midfielders help him out by filtering in behind him, never leaving any defender one on one!!!
Stop it at 0.41 and you will have a clear view of this RUBBISH BORING DULL EVERY MAN IN THE BOX defence that people go on about forever and a day and as Abu said "there was no defenders running away from thorugh balls or the whole box werent filled with defenders". In FIFA, there would be solely defenders there all just one on one. Here there are defenders and midfielders. After THREE counter attacks in less than a minute Chelsea now have NINE of their team in the opposition third, all either in or just outside the box!
I'm going to get some pills this could be a long night.
CLIP 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3a_-5g72WOc
First up watch how quick the interchange and watch how quick they are down the wing chasing the ball. Then just watch the rest look how quick the inter-play is, and then watch how quick the break is. Then watch at 0.54 how many Lev bodies are back behind the ball. Again if this was FIFA after that counter it would two on two or something ridiculous. PES emulates football perfectly and it gets accused or not being realistic - unbelievable.
CLIP 3
http://youtu.be/Ym8byfa1pas
Too many counters, too many counters I here everyone moaning and whining, well in this clip possession is changed over and countered 4 times in forty seconds!! And then stop it on 0.32, classic PES containing. One man containing, buying time for the CPU controlled guy to dispossess.
CLIP 4
http://youtu.be/IpvbNNt1cS0
Nice straight forward one, a fast Chelsea counter-attack
CLIP 5
http://youtu.be/740r0krrnQc
The start of the clip and the Lev guy is bombing forward, he gets dispossessed. Chelsea then counter at break neck speed, the ref doesn't give the penalty (dodgy) but then Leverkusen counter. Stop it at 0.24 and you'll all notice once again that this phantom midfield battle that everyone keeps harping on about is bullshit. THE MODERN DAY GAME HAS CHANGED. The modern players and tactics either play it very slowly across the back four where it is a waiting game, in which generally opposition players don't get sucked in because it drags the formation out of sink, or the game is lightening speed counters.
CLIP 6
http://youtu.be/mtL3Ro2o9LE
One of my favourite ones. To play high these days is almost suicide. Chelsea did it against Arsenal a few weeks ago and Walcott and Persie ran riot. The modern way is the PES way. At 0.06 defensive units are already dropping off. The idea is to give the Lev guys time on the ball in this area, but to pressure ANY ball into the midfield in the hope of a counter. Go to 0.08, although the Lev guy has come from his own box almost he is in a bit of a trouble spot here and if he does what I think he is going to do and what Cheslea want him to do it's play the ball to the middle. At 0.09 look how many Chelsea def unit players there are, four around the one man, but his touch is fine. At 0.11 we now have half the Chelsea team in one small area of the pitch looking to contain the situation and if possible to nick the ball. PES PES PES.
The ball is then forced back, where the move restarts. Chelsea get the ball and look at 0.38. There aren't one on ones all over the place like FIFA, man it's just ridiculous. You have one Lev guy containing again whilst the rest of the defensive unit filter in behind, from a Chelsea counter Lev have four men around the ball. Then when the ball goes to Mata at 0.41, there is still a container and two players coming back behind him.
CLIP 7
http://youtu.be/aekpfEgKUnI
DEFENSIVE LINES/UNITS PEOPLE
Stop the clip at 0.10, look how the Lev defence is set up. There are no easy balls up to the CPU so that they just go one on one. And even if that did happen here the Lev midfielders would filter in behind their defenders. NINE Lev players in the picture plus the keeper.
Right it's getting late now peeps and I have work. I had four more clips of the first half early, in which I can prove that PES resembles real life football in terms of trying to be a simulation. Counter attacks, quick players, quick passing, defensive unit containment. It's all there I just haven't the time.
Listen guys this will be it from me with regards to posting clips and analysing for a bit, my missus has been going ape the last week I've barely seen her.
You really must believe me when I say I'm not concerned about the title name, I really don't care. I also can't argue the fact that PES looks horrible on times re the animations. The way some players kick the ball, the transitions all auurghhhgh sometimes.
BUT I CANNOT HAVE THE FACT THAT PES IS NOT A SIMULATION IN THE WAY IT REPLICATES WHAT I SEE ON THE TV. What purpose would it serve in me arguing otherwise. I didn't write three words on PES2010, PES2009 and 2008 were travesties in different ways, they didn't even resemble a sport let alone football. I played PES2011 lots although it had it's issues. I played FIFA 11 lots, and my game of choice in 2009 was FIFA exclusively.
But PES this year (allbeit on PC) is a different kettle of fish altogether. And it's the closest thing ever to resembling the movements of the players on a pitch, all 22! Which is a huge, huge chunk of making it realistic.
I'm off to bed.
I like the fact that you are at least honest and fair...unlike some.
My only effort here is get others to realize that not everyone sees each game the same way. I respect the fact that you love PES and its gameplay.....I also did not too long ago. But I also hate the fact that because PES isn't up to par anymore, others try to take it out on Fifa.
As I have stated before...(on many other threads) PES and Fifa are two different forms of expressing the same sport.
PES is (and always has) focuses on the pure basics of football, invigorating pace with mixed challenges on both ends. Run hard, pass and shoot. They have introduced skills but not many players uses them.
Fifa on the other hand focuses on the flair of game. Hence you will find the enhanced animations, the multiple choices of celebrations and of course the skills.
They both represent the same game of football but in a different format. Many do not recognize this ...so we have this Fifa vs PES discussion.
A fan of PES will always hate how Fifa plays and vice versa since the basis of each game is different. PES uses gameplay.....Fifa uses skills.
So in closing, this argument will never die unless we realize that both game are really different flavours of the same game.
peace
By the way ...have you tried the software I sent?
I haven't tried BAL yet. But in ML, the AI is quite brilliant (with right updates and patches).
Defending may be harder in PES 2012 than it is in FIFA 12, but it's not scripted at all. Or probably you should try PES 2012 for PC version. There are things in the PS3 version which are a bit messed up as I've already tried it myself.
That's really the problem, mate.
Playing the PC version, with the latest official patch + Jenkey's Gameplay Tool makes this game (BY FAR) the best soccer simulation experience I've had in all my life.
If you don't want to try the PC version, then prolly is better to play FIFA 12. But if you do decide to convert to the 'adult platform' (PC), then you should really give PES 2012 a try.
Hey mate, I tried it and done everything instructed (ie copy the patch over) and it seemed to copy, but then came up that it was still the trial version. Also when I run it or something like it, the PES game becomes unstable may be my computer isn't powerful enough to run it alongside a game or something??!
Hmm...
Could you list the specs of the computer here?
Also, when you copy over the patch, are u still using the old shortcut on the desktop? You should use the new shortcut from the directory where you copied the patch.
Maybe i can suggest better settings.
quote. PES uses gameplay.....Fifa uses skills.
Thats interesting. Are you highlighting the fact that people who prefer FIFA, don't really want a realistic football game, they want flair, tricks, celebrations?
The best bit about FIFA is the loading screen. Being able to faff around with tricks, practicing shooting. Thats not football. Football is team play. Its gritty and tense. Its doing the basics right. Ronaldo became a better player when he stopped doing all his pointless tricks and being a show pony. I don't want my football game to replicate that of a street performer. All players, even the big donkey centre backs have it in their locker to do fancy flicks and tricks. But doing them on the pitch during the match is rare. Its an element I'd be happy if they took out of PES and FIFA completely, as its such a tiny, insignificant part of the game. I could pop into the garden and do some rainbow flicks etc but I can't play a champions league final in my garden. I can see how some people like doing the fancy stuff, but it doesn't replicate the game properly. It goes back to the argument of PES being the simulation. Theres no shame in liking FIFA, its stepped up its game since the PS2 days. But its a different kettle of fish to PES and it should be recognised why people like FIFA and why people like PES.
abu97
Some people have unrealistic expectations of artificial intelligence. You need to get 22 players acting realistically, as a team, individually and also have human strengths of creativity, unpredictability and have human restrictions and make mistakes. This feat shouldn't be underestimated. Its not going to be perfect.
Pes is in no way perfect, but its a much better representation of how teams move around and support each other. Fifa's AI might have elements that are better than PES. But FIFA's general team play is far worse than PES. In FIFA everyones positioning is way too rigid, players don't work well together, it feels and plays quite robotic. With FIFA you need to have more human controlled players to mask the lack of humanity to the AI.
As for game speed, its not a problem. Its not too fast, the problem (if there is one) is that its a relentless speed. Or can be, depending how you play. But I will go back to my point, that you need to remove some elements of the game, as you aren't playing over 90minutes. Its not that you can't pass the ball about, slowly building up play, but you haven't got long to get some goals. If all real games were reduced to 10-20minutes, they probably wouldn't have much slow build up play either.
I would say, for both games that they need to concentrate on getting the out the box game to play right. Most sales of football games are on the PS3, not a PC. Whether you can patch either game to play perfectly on the PC should be a side issue to which game is the best. As most people won't be doing that.
Nope, I am not saying that Fifa players want a game that is less realistic.... I am saying that Fifa games offer a different package which includes the unique celebrations and player tricks and skills. The game still has a remarkable AI and gameplay.
Now in my opinion this makes the game more realistic. This based on the fact that these celebrations and skills are actually a part of Football. Brazillians ...well South Americans to be exact all pride themselves for these great skills which they do apply in their games.
Now, not because you don't like the tricks and skills (maybe you have tried hard but cannot grasp how to do them in the game) doesn't mean that it must be removed. I strongly believe that tricks and skills are a fundamental part of football that offers beauty to the lovely game.
Fifa baby ....errr day
I agree totally with Hawkeye76 OCKRASS, and I believe you've hit the nail on the head about what each person wants from the game (in generality).
I couldn't disagree more about the highlights on bold and is the main reason why PES players and FIFA players will always disagree.
Celebrations? Tricks? Skills? I really, really couldn't care about all this, this is cartoon football, Street Fighter football, where button combinations outweigh ANY sense of having to manipulate space and create moves by using decoys, creating angles etc etc. I don't care about celebrations, lol, I really don't. I have never used them, EVER. Tricks?!? I don't want Jamie Carragher to be able to do the magic seven in the middle of a Merseyside derby. What I do want is responsive players, gifted players, like Suarez, Silva, Ronaldo, Messi to have the ability of getting past players using natural laws of physics and using their natural gifts of body balance, agility and flair, without the need to "press" and button.
I never use tricks and skills, because 99.99% of matches, players don't do this kind of thing in real life. Did you see any tricks in last night's Chelsea game...like a fk, because it's too important, it's hard enough for players to concentrate on just passing the ball under that type of pressure.
If I want to use button combinations and flick the ball over someone's head before performing a super-doopa, scissor kick, multi angled super smash combo, I'd go and play Mortal Kombat or something. I'm surprised FIFA haven't got a button combination that smashes the ball through the keepers chest (ala Alien), whilst the goaly is left dangling, with 'FINISH HIM' in big writing coming up on the screen, as Cantona comes out from nowhere and kung-fu kicks his head off his shoulders.
Skills are done VERY infrequently, normally when a team is coasting 5-0. But if Man Utd were coasting 5-0 and Nani performed some skills, lost the ball and the opposition scored, Alex Ferguson would roast that boys ass for a week, Nani wouldn't do it again.
And this I guess it what it boils down to, the difference in what one perceives reality to be. I will not budge on my team ethic stance, whereas FIFA players prefer to have the individual skills and tricks at their disposal.
For me the goals and stuff are just the icing on the cake, where PES has me drooling is how I get to that point, how my players acted and moved and behaved for the goal, how the CPU defence acted, did the whole thing look like it would on tv, and did it mirror would would happen on the tv at the end of the process. For me PES does this 10/10.
Completely agree.
I couldn't care less about that stuff. All I want is an optimum combination of realism and diversity in gameplay.
In that (crucial) department, PES still edges it, no doubt.
Even one of my fifa-fanatic friends agrees.
"As for game speed, its not a problem. Its not too fast, the problem (if there is one) is that its a relentless speed. Or can be, depending how you play.'
That's fine for the user, the problem is the CPU constantly charges up the pitch at 100 mph. That's the part that's badly programmed and completely unrealistic -- as poorly done as FIFA's default one-dimensional CPU AI attack strategy. FIFA 12 though has tactics settings where one can set the CPU play build up speed anywhere from 0-100. That's what I'm busy doing right now with the game -- creating a variety of unique tactics and assigning them to all the teams in the game. I can tell you that tactics make a huge difference to both CPU build up speed and attack style.
And that's why techboy's analysis really doesn't amount to all that much when all is said and done. Because there's no one-style of play in FIFA 12 once a person starts to edit CPU tactics. In 30 seconds I can create a CPU team that will do little more than continually pass the ball back, that won't cross, and that takes 70-80% of its shots from outside the box. The tactic combinations are somewhat endless. Judging the game by one video of one team using the generic default tactics EA happened to create and assign, means nothing really. And that's one of the more important differences between the two games this year from what I've seen.
That's fine for the user, the problem is the CPU constantly charges up the pitch at 100 mph. That's the part that's badly programmed and completely unrealistic -- as poorly done as FIFA's default one-dimensional CPU AI attack strategy. FIFA 12 though has tactics settings where one can set the CPU play build up speed anywhere from 0-100. That's what I'm busy doing right now with the game -- creating a variety of unique tactics and assigning them to all the teams in the game. I can tell you that tactics make a huge difference to both CPU build up speed and attack style.
And that's why techboy's analysis really doesn't amount to all that much when all is said and done. Because there's no one-style of play in FIFA 12 once a person starts to edit CPU tactics. In 30 seconds I can create a CPU team that will do little more than continually pass the ball back, that won't cross, and that takes 70-80% of its shots from outside the box. The tactic combinations are somewhat endless. Judging the game by one video of one team using the generic default tactics EA happened to create and assign, means nothing really. And that's one of the more important differences between the two games this year from what I've seen.
Techboy, sturridge used stepovers and body feints and so did Castro and even ballack did a small nutmeg.
Also Drogba's goal which he scored with his left foot came from a small skill.
Did you see Kevin Prince Boateng's goal against Barcelona? Now that, you can't be able to score on PES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evgtinV2VTE
Also Drogba's goal which he scored with his left foot came from a small skill.
Did you see Kevin Prince Boateng's goal against Barcelona? Now that, you can't be able to score on PES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evgtinV2VTE
Yes step overs are in Pes, and body feints. If I play Man City for example you'll see some lovely Silva animations. If I play Man Utd then Nani will use his trickery. But the majority of goals are scored through team work. Occasionally you'll get the best players skilling someone for a goal, but FIFA makes it so accessible that doing something so technical is about as easy as a pass.
For example I scored a wonderful solo effort goal with Suarez yesterday that relied solely on me out foxing the CPU with natural body movemet and swiftness just using the left analogue.
Football essentially and fundamentally is about passing and movement. Not about constantly using roulette's, keepy ups, etc etc
For example I scored a wonderful solo effort goal with Suarez yesterday that relied solely on me out foxing the CPU with natural body movemet and swiftness just using the left analogue.
Football essentially and fundamentally is about passing and movement. Not about constantly using roulette's, keepy ups, etc etc
Point taken Tech .....and this is why most PES players do not like Fifa.
You have said it clearly, and i understand. From a personal stance you do not like tricks and skills. But you must understand that although you think it resembles cartoon, street fighter football....many of us like the freedom it offers.
Gone are the days for me when i have to choose Barca or Madrid online to beat an opponent in PES because all i have to do is blaze a trail past the defenders. But if you notice online today ...all the PES games are Barca vs Madrid ....do you know why? It sure aint the tricks bro.
I see where a lot of PES players are stuck with the run fast, pass, pass and shoot game....and thats fine.
My point is don't... blame fifa for its finesse. For the record here is why Fifa is the best game on the market.
- Best animations ever
- Best Gameplay ever
- Best Tricks ever
- Best Celebrations ever
- Best variety of formations ever
Now, a few points
Not all players in Fifa can do all the tricks
Executing a trick takes a lot of practice and timing
Tricks are hard to do in the game
Practice makes you better
All the above gives the game great balance.
I dont really care if anyone doesnt like to do tricks to beat defenders ....but i do. It is fun and more realistic than just barging through defenders like idiots (PES). I will say this till I die...PES is garbage compared to Fifa where realism is concerned.
NOT ONE PES PLAYER CAN JUGGLE A BALL!:w00t
where is the realism?
Is juggling considered cartoon, street fighter moves ..?
They do ..for all PES players.
:shocking:
Thats AMaazing skill.. and did you see the celebration
Why the heck wouldn't I want to score a goal like that against Tech? :laugh:
PES player must hate you now bro. :blush:
peace
Do I have to write them off Baangus?