New PES 2012 actual full game gameplay wow
- Thread starter lawjm4
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MysteryMan
Registered User
Yep, AI is by far the most important part for me, it was the part that PES 2011 lacked the most.
What I want from PES is the AI/players to be smart, intelligent and aware of whats going on around them.
For example how many times did you have your AI player run blindly into another player? Without even trying to change directions or use some sort of trick, its just... almost unbelievable that this game was made in 2010.
But I want it even one step further, I want the AI to be aware of the situations/players surrounding them and decide his next action based on that and also how smart/good/type of a player he is.
Heres one example:
1. Strong player going up against a defender, he knows the defender is tough but so is he so he tries to go body to body
2. Thin but skilled player going up against a strong defender, he realizes the defender is much stronger so he tries to avoid body to body and instead tries to avoid him or outdribble him or pass the ball.
This is what I want from PES 2012 and if the AI is not AT LEAST a lot better than the shit AI in PES 2011 I don't think il even play it, why would I if PES 2011 is not that far off anyway?
Dean Richmond
Registered User
most important change for me is the first touch, which has been a bug in PES for years. they seem to have fixed that so it looks promising.
things they need to change
shooting - seems to have been fixed
referees - time will tell
first touch - seems to have been fixed
penalties - fixed @(thank god)
a.i. - fixed
all looking good, could be the best football game ever this year
things they need to change
shooting - seems to have been fixed
referees - time will tell
first touch - seems to have been fixed
penalties - fixed @(thank god)
a.i. - fixed
all looking good, could be the best football game ever this year
Ali
It is happening again
They need to change some of the animations for the shooting, that's for sure. Looks so wooden and unrealistic. But as long as they fix the one-on-ones, and the controlled shots, it should be alright.
MysteryMan
Registered User
Regarding shooting the power bar SHOULD represent height and ONLY height.
That way we have control on how we want to shoot, atm we don't.
Should be:
Height = Power Bar ( too much is over , but also depends on the shot technique and accuracy how much and such )
Power = stat ( shot power ), your body position, opposition pressure aswell as if you use the controlled shot its obviously more accurate one as opposed to just pressing the button to shoot which would be full power depending on the things beforehand.
That way we have control on how we want to shoot, atm we don't.
Should be:
Height = Power Bar ( too much is over , but also depends on the shot technique and accuracy how much and such )
Power = stat ( shot power ), your body position, opposition pressure aswell as if you use the controlled shot its obviously more accurate one as opposed to just pressing the button to shoot which would be full power depending on the things beforehand.
shaun7
Registered User
1 small change that could bring more user input to the shooting is to bring back pes 5's power bar. It rises up slower, so you have more time and control over the shot. This results in more user input.
Anyway, more animations are needed, but the transition and flow between the animations (pes 11) are the first thing they needed to fix and it appears that they have done just that.
Anyway, more animations are needed, but the transition and flow between the animations (pes 11) are the first thing they needed to fix and it appears that they have done just that.
Amateur
Registered User
It kinda looks like a version of PES6 with better graphics and more directions of passing and movement. I'm not impressed at all. The computer plays the game for you. The computer dictates the speed of the game for you. It still plays like a pinball arcade game.
It looks entertaining enough, but that's about it, it's nothing remarkable. The only reason why I will probably end up buying PES12 is because of the right analog stick off the ball gimmick, which at least offers enough freedom for some nice possession football; but other than that, I think PES12 is just PES11.5.
S-D-P
Registered User
1 small change that could bring more user input to the shooting is to bring back pes 5's power bar. It rises up slower, so you have more time and control over the shot. This results in more user input.
Anyway, more animations are needed, but the transition and flow between the animations (pes 11) are the first thing they needed to fix and it appears that they have done just that.
I agree with this, some of the impressions so far suggest we have more control over power thus allowing more varied shot trajectory.
MysteryMan
Registered User
The biggest issue with PES 2011 from all the bugs and issues and stuff was the AI no doubt about it, now it seems that they are improving off the ball AI a bit but what about on the ball AI?
Thats one of the biggest issues and it affects your opponent ( the AI ) aswell as ur AI teammates if you play BAL or want to use 1 player for whatever reason.
From running DIRECTLY into opponents with the ball ( WTF??? what kind of idiot runs directly into an opponent without trying to cut to some side or to some trick or at least turn around to shield the ball ) , to running DIRECTLY into out sometimes ( WTF again ), to pressuring opposing players ( that have the ball ) like they were crazy pittbulls injected with steroids ( which is not only unrealistic because you can't keep running at full speed for the whole freaking match? its also easily exploitable because they leave alot of space with pressuring like crazy ), to not passing the ball when someone runs clean into space but rather passing it somewhere else, to not knowing how to play soccer at all or have no variability ( teams play more or less the same no matter what tactics u use, for example the AI does not know how to play possession football like Barca does, Barca as AI controlled playes incredibly weird and NOTHING like real Barca ) its just ....
The AI needs a MAJOR overhaul if I am to play this new game, I don't even care about animations THAT much or add ons or whatever if the AI is not fixed and fixed ALOT, I would go so far as to rate the AI in PES a 2 out of 10, its so horrible.
Thats one of the biggest issues and it affects your opponent ( the AI ) aswell as ur AI teammates if you play BAL or want to use 1 player for whatever reason.
From running DIRECTLY into opponents with the ball ( WTF??? what kind of idiot runs directly into an opponent without trying to cut to some side or to some trick or at least turn around to shield the ball ) , to running DIRECTLY into out sometimes ( WTF again ), to pressuring opposing players ( that have the ball ) like they were crazy pittbulls injected with steroids ( which is not only unrealistic because you can't keep running at full speed for the whole freaking match? its also easily exploitable because they leave alot of space with pressuring like crazy ), to not passing the ball when someone runs clean into space but rather passing it somewhere else, to not knowing how to play soccer at all or have no variability ( teams play more or less the same no matter what tactics u use, for example the AI does not know how to play possession football like Barca does, Barca as AI controlled playes incredibly weird and NOTHING like real Barca ) its just ....
The AI needs a MAJOR overhaul if I am to play this new game, I don't even care about animations THAT much or add ons or whatever if the AI is not fixed and fixed ALOT, I would go so far as to rate the AI in PES a 2 out of 10, its so horrible.
S-D-P
Registered User
@mystery man
The tactical options are there to create individual team styles, just konami are a bit lazy in this regard and expect us to do it. Check out the tactics thread on evo web for a Barca formation.
A lot of teams have the long ball tactic for example even though they shouldn't.
I agree the AI can make some really illogical decision at times, hopefully konami will spend more time getting the default tactics right.
http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60966
The tactical options are there to create individual team styles, just konami are a bit lazy in this regard and expect us to do it. Check out the tactics thread on evo web for a Barca formation.
A lot of teams have the long ball tactic for example even though they shouldn't.
I agree the AI can make some really illogical decision at times, hopefully konami will spend more time getting the default tactics right.
http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60966
MysteryMan
Registered User
I know theres tactical options thanks, but it doesn't rly have much effect thats what im arguing.
You can set up a Barca formation perfectly make poss(def) or (off) whatever tactic and they still won't play like they should, very rarely will you see a pass going backwards in the attacking end when infact it should happen quite often.
The AI will RUSH forward and attack instead of really playing patient soccer.
If you put 2 AI teams to play and u can put like Barca vs some spanish low tier team u will still see at the end of the game that Barca wont have more than 60% of the ball, sometimes its even going to be very close if not equal, that means tactics do have some effect on how players play but not the right effect that they should have ( much of this is also due to the stupidness of the AI not the tactics themself tho ).
S-D-P
Registered User
I wasn't insinuating you didn't realise there are tactical options, looking back at my post it came across a tad patronising which wasn't my intention I was just making the point that many AI teams have very generic tactics which dont help.
Patient build up play from the AI is few and far between I agree.
Patient build up play from the AI is few and far between I agree.
Amateur
Registered User
This happens because PES is a pinball arcade game where the AI plays the game for you. If PES actually was a proper sim game, teams like Barcelona would play patient soccer.
Bottom line is, you cannot play patient soccer because the AI does not act in accordance to your commands, instead, the AI acts however and whenever it wants to act. As a result, the AI does not know when to play patient football or when to rush forwards into space, which is why the AI simply runs forwards into the space all the time, because PES is a dumb video game, and the most intelligent thing that the AI can do is run forwards into space all the time.
Furthermore. The tactics system is incredibly dumb and stupid, the gamer can change it at any time; and therefore, on the defensive end, how can the computer be competent when the computer does not know what the team in possession of the ball intends to do?
The team in possession can change tactics at any given time, there is no structure to it. As a gamer, you can easily outsmart the dumb defensive AI by simply changing strategies all the time, causing the AI to go into panic due to the fact that in one second the team in possession of the ball is playing long ball tactics and the next second the team in possession of the ball is playing possession football; it is a stupid and dumb system that makes it impossible for the computer to be competent on the defensive end, as well as on the attacking end as a result of the amazing balancing acts otherwise known as scripting.
The tactics system is as stupid as this: in order to play possession football, you must activate the "possession strategy" yet who controls if the strategy actually works? Who controls when a player stays back or when a player makes the overlapping run? Who controls when the center forward runs forwards into space? Who controls if the center forward decided to run a little too early or a little too late? The AI. It is a very flawed and outdated system because it is completely out of your control.
The word "simulation" suggests that the gamer can create anything he wants, in order to play inside whatever the gamer created. This is why the "The Sims" video game series revolves around a world that the gamer creates. On the other hand, PES revolves around little scripts that are randomly created and dictated by the computer/AI, which is why PES essentially is a classic arcade game. PES and FIFA are far from being actual sim games.
Ali
It is happening again
If you want pinball, you should play bloody Fifa! That's much worse.
I disagree with your 2nd paragraph to an extent. My style is quite patient and it works most of the time. If I can't open up the opposition, I'll often pass it back to a player in more space in order to draw out the defence.
S-D-P
Registered User
If you want pinball, you should play bloody Fifa! That's much worse.
I disagree with your 2nd paragraph to an extent. My style is quite patient and it works most of the time. If I can't open up the opposition, I'll often pass it back to a player in more space in order to draw out the defence.
Same here, I play with a DMF, two CM's pushed out slightly wide with an advanced play maker, I also set supp range to 9 and this allows me to play some nice possession football. Patience is a virtue in pes although the AI gang rape pressure can make you offload the ball like its on fire sometimes.
MysteryMan
Registered User
And this is one of the reasons why AI is so easy to beat, and why its so easy to dribble past players if u have speed merchant.
The AI pressuring you like crazy ( the ball holder only ) means he leaves alot of space open at the back and you always have many passing options, once the ball is passed the space the AI just ran through has a huge hole.
If instead the AI would be patient and not rush you like a mad cow, the space would be more tight resulting in being harder to break down, or if instead the AI would pressure alot ( if you play against Barca for example ) but pressure smart ( not only the ball holder but other players covering the passing lanes aswell ) you would have less choices for a pass and sometimes would need to clear the ball somewhere forward.
Its equally easy to dribble past players with speed merchant because they keep attacking you and u simply change directions, if the AI would stand a bit further away and slowly move backwards and perhaps a 2nd defender or a 3rd would come close and pack the space infront you would have no real options to penetrate forward.
Its flaws like this that make PES less enjoyable and feel arcade like instead of a simulation, I mean seriously I have no problems with Messi drifting past several players if theres space because he obviously can ( check 2-0 vs Madrid last season in the CL ), but alot of times in matches the opposition parks the bus or packs the space infront of Messi thats what makes it so hard for him to do this every match several times, in PES this doesn't rly exist.
Amateur
Registered User
If you want pinball, you should play bloody Fifa! That's much worse.
I disagree with your 2nd paragraph to an extent. My style is quite patient and it works most of the time. If I can't open up the opposition, I'll often pass it back to a player in more space in order to draw out the defence.
Nah, I disagree, there are so many things that you simply cannot do with PES. Patient football is what Barcelona plays in real life; in PES, even if you pass the ball back, the rest of the players will move forwards very quickly, giving the game a pinball arcade feel. The game is making basic decisions for you and always provides you with at least three options, and all you have to do is choose one of the three options: pass the ball back, pass the ball forwards, dribble past the opponent.
Do you have to think at all in order to pass the ball back? No. Because the computer is spoon feeding you with easy choices to make. The only thing that your brain needs to assimilate is -- "hey, there's a random player free from mark, I'm gonna pass the ball to him" -- and you pass the ball to the player.
What happens after you passed the ball backwards? You have no idea, because the computer dictates everything randomly.
Same thing happens with an overlapping run. The only thing that you need to think about is -- "hey, there's a random player running forwards into space, I'm gonna pass the ball to him" -- and you pass the ball to the player. You never know when an overlapping run will take place, because you do not manually trigger the overlapping run; and in addition, you never know where an overlapping run will take place, because you do not even get to choose who makes the overlapping run.
Therefore, you do not need to think about anything at all, because you do not determine when a player will offer support by not running or when a player will offer support via an overlapping run. In some occasions the overlapping run is the better answer, in other occasions offering support without running forwards into space is the better answer; the fact that the computer gives you both choices at the same time, the fact that you cannot choose who makes the overlapping run (where the overlapping run takes place), the fact that you cannot choose the type of support that the selected target will offer, the fact that you cannot determine one choice per pass, means that the computer is in complete control over the script of the video game.
Example: the computer spoon feeds you with three choices per pass and if you choose the correct answer, you are smart.
The problem with that spoon feed tactical system, is that the computer has the power and the freedom to give you plenty of choices, to not give you any choices, or to give you fucked up choices so that you end up loosing the ball. That's classic arcade. That's not a simulation.
On the other hand. Let's talk about REAL SIMULATION. If you need to start the play with just one choice, and you need to choose whom that choice is, and you also need to choose the type of support that the selected target will offer.... Now that would be a REAL SIMULATION, because the computer cannot disregard your ability as a gamer, because the computer would merely follow your instructions.
The PES and FIFA system is dumb and unreliable. It gives all the power to the AI. When the AI decides that the momentum is against you, you will quickly notice how the computer is no longer providing you with simple choices. That's the massive problem that you get when the computer is the factor that determines the choices that you have on the pitch, like a movie, the game will revolve around a script that the viewer cannot possibly affect, a script that the computer dictates randomly. Therefore, the amount of choices that you have, have nothing to do with your skill as a gamer.
Your ability as a gamer is the factor that determines if you can take advantage of the choices that you have; however, due to the fact that the computer can decide to not provide you with any choices, it means that your ability as a gamer is blatantly disregarded by the computer.
PES is an arcade game. You do not create your choices. You do not choose your targets. You do not choose the type of support that the selected target will offer. The computer dictates when and where the choices will take place. Classic arcade. What difference does it make if you can choose to pass the ball back? No difference at all, because that choice was provided to you by the computer without your consent. The fact that you can pass the ball back does not change the fact that you are playing a pinball arcade game, nor does it change the fact that it is impossible to play patient football.
I can pass the ball back and then send an unrealistic pass forwards into the space, which makes the game feel like an arcade pinball game. It never feels nor looks like patient football. I completely disagree with you on this one. Patient football is impossible in every PES to date.
That's more or less what I have been trying to explain to Ali and S-D-P. The game needs to slow the fuck down, give you -- the gamer -- the freedom to make your choices when and where you want them to take place.
Example.
1st -- ball carrier: directs the left analog stick in order to indicate the target who will offer support, after identifying his target, the gamer presses and releases the through pass button for the 1st time. As a result, the selected target will run forwards into space (overlapping run). The time span that takes place between pressing and releasing the through pas button, would determine the speed at which the target moves through space.
1st -- ball carrier: can only use the overlapping run only ONCE at a time. Meaning that the ball carrier CANNOT dictate a 2nd overlapping run, until the player whom executed the 1st overlapping run touches the ball.
2nd -- defender: in order to effectively contain the overlapping run, the defender must tap the through pass button before the opponent has his first touch on the ball (after each pass).
2nd -- defender: in this case, the defender did not tapped the through pass button, which means that the defender will not close down the attacker whom is about to execute an overlapping run.
2nd -- defender: the defender cannot simply contain the overlapping run by simply tapping the trough pass button every time that the opponent passes the ball. The defender only has ONE chance of getting it right. If the defender uses the through pass "anti-overlapping run" button in the wrong occasion, the defender cannot use the mentioned button for a 2nd time. On the other hand, if the defender gets it right, then, as a result, the defender can use the through pass "anti-overlapping run" button for a 2nd time or for a 3rd time and so on.
3rd -- ball carrier: after identifying whom the target is and after determining the type of support that the selected target will offer, the gamer presses and releases the through pass button for a 2nd time. As a result, the ball carrier passes the ball to the player whom is making the overlapping run.
4th -- defender: the defender was not close to the attacker whom is about to have his first touch on the ball, and therefore is not close enough to actually man mark the mentioned attacker. As a result, the attacker whom is about to have his first touch on the ball has some open space to exploit and do damage.
4th -- defender: if the defender had effectively contained the attacker who made the overlapping run, as a result, the mentioned attacker would have been effectively man marked by the defender and would need to dribble past the defender.
Therefore. As a result. When a tactical mistake takes place. It would be your fault as a gamer, as opposed to a randomly dictated momentum shift.
That's what PES lacks, it lacks the substance and the consistency that is necessary, so that logical reasons can explain the mistakes that take place all over the pitch. With PES everything is random, and that formula simply isn't good enough anymore.
Long story short. The PES and FIFA system is an ARCADE MESS, plain and simple.
MysteryMan
Registered User
I agree and I would much rather have a simulation aswell.
And if KONAMI is too dumb to make one and the AI dictates things then at least for the love of god make the AI smart because atm its not only dumb its retarded.
Just put the difficulty to regular and go play against the AI for example, even tho your own off the ball players have AI assitance to move and attack as you said which limits you as a player your going to destroy the opponent AI on regular and u don't even have to try. Thats how weak and dumb the AI really is.
Everything after regular is no measure for the true AI because all it does is make the "players" have better stats, then you get an even less realistic and even more annoying game where Iniesta pushes me off the ball like a twig when im using Drogba.
meh I could write a novel and it wouldn't make any difference, KONAMI will prolly disapoint me again with pes 2012, I just hope its decent at least.
And if KONAMI is too dumb to make one and the AI dictates things then at least for the love of god make the AI smart because atm its not only dumb its retarded.
Just put the difficulty to regular and go play against the AI for example, even tho your own off the ball players have AI assitance to move and attack as you said which limits you as a player your going to destroy the opponent AI on regular and u don't even have to try. Thats how weak and dumb the AI really is.
Everything after regular is no measure for the true AI because all it does is make the "players" have better stats, then you get an even less realistic and even more annoying game where Iniesta pushes me off the ball like a twig when im using Drogba.
meh I could write a novel and it wouldn't make any difference, KONAMI will prolly disapoint me again with pes 2012, I just hope its decent at least.
Amateur
Registered User
Fully agree. That's why I personally find it rather stupid when certain people are asking for a higher difficulty setting.... I mean, the higher the difficulty the more stupid your players become, that's why it is more difficult to play the game the higher the difficulty. However, is it fun to play the game when your players are fucking morons? I fail to see why it would make it more fun.
I think the current arcade formula has nothing left to give, because it's massively flawed at its very core. That's why I'm hoping that a third party can come in from the middle of nowhere and produce an actual footy sim.