I can only admire the dedication of sminky pinky when it comes to dissing the game, even I feel exhausted by the amount of work you put in to it. Well as long as you're having a good time it matters huh?
Then to Amateur's post, I really feel you're passionate about making the game better in overall but to be honest I don't quite understand all your points, or at least don't understand what you are suggesting should be done to the game.. But let's try to communicate?
the COM dictates the circumstances, and the USER reacts to the circumstances. This one I understand a bit, indeed it's not like you can "put the AI into it's knees" with pure wits and tactics. It's more like you might be able to exploit it's gaps somehow.. Though the AI might be able to humiliate you, as you pointed out. And especially your defence in PES 2011..
And this seems to piss off lots of players. I myself though have been mostly happy and felt really good seeing my defence ripped apart by a few smart passes..
Thought: FINALLY they do it. The PES "Invincibles" years might be over.. In 2010, keeping clean sheets was a walk in the park.
It really has nothing to do with what you are saying.
You are talking about the concept, and you are restricting your argument to revolve around the concept; on the other hand, I do not want the same old concept because it is scripted and automatic, it expired with FIFA09, and every Football Sim since FIFA09 has affirmed and re-affirmed what should be obvious.
The COM dictates the circumstances, and the USER reacts to the circumstances; because the COM is in complete control of the dots or targets at which you aim your passes. In other words, the COM dictates the script, and the USER reacts to the COM dictated script: the script is not USER dictated.
What I want, is an accessible and intuitive video game, where the concept revolves around the idea of USER dictated circumstances: where the USER dictates the speed of the game, when you play, where you play, the USER is in full control of TIME and SPACE.
PLAY BY PLAY STRATEGIES
The first thing I will explain is a concept that I would describe as
play by play strategies.
I press the L2 button + tap the (x) button: the wing back starts running forwards. This would work PLAY BY PLAY.
What do I mean by
play by play? That it would only work ONCE per play.... thus establishing a concrete and consistent structure to how the game functions.
After the initial tap on the (x) button:
the pressure sensitive L2 button will control the speed at which the wing back runs through the flank.
This means that after the initial touch, you can use the pressure sensitive L2 button to control the speed at which the wing back is running through the flank; and you can keep the L2 button pressed and pass the ball at the same time.
Releasing the pressure sensitive L2 button, would cause the selected target (in this case, a wing back) to completely halt his movement; in other words, the USER would have total control in terms of timing the run and timing the pass.
The play by play strategies will automatically expire after the initial touch on the button, and after the initial touch, the button will function for it's original purpose: passing the ball or shooting the ball, the L2 button no longer affecting the usage of the mentioned buttons.
PLAY BY PLAY, means that
you can only use one play by play strategy per pass: meaning that in the pause or time span between one pass and another pass, you can only use ONE strategy.
The procedure or mechanic would be:
1st -- press and hold the L2 button + tap one of the four face buttons.
2nd -- release the face button, after the initial touch on the face button, the pressure sensitive L2 button will determine the speed at which the selected target will run through space.
3rd -- pass the ball whilst pressing the L2 button, or pass the ball whilst releasing the L2 button; makes no difference because after the initial touch the L2 button should no longer affect the original usage of the face buttons.
After you use one of the four play by play strategies, it will no longer function in the same play: you would need to loose possession of the ball so that the used play by play strategy is usable once again, which means that you can use each play by play strategy ONCE per play.
And as already mentioned, you can only use each play by play strategy ONCE per pass; meaning that in the pause between one pass and another pass, you can only use ONE strategy.
Press and hold L2 button + tap the (o) button: the selected forward or striker, will start running towards the position of the ball, where the ball might be, after the initial tap on the (o) button, the L2 button will determine the speed at which the striker or forward runs towards the direction of the ball.
Press and hold the L2 button + tap the (square) button: the selected midfielder will run or move from right to left or left to right, the user decides if it's left to right or right to left via tactical settings. After the initial tap on the (crossing) button, the L2 button will determine the speed at which the midfielder moves from right to left or left to right.
Simple, accessible, intuitive, realistic, balanced, consistent, substantial: the USER dictates the circumstances and also reacts to the circumstances that he creates.... if the USER does not dictates the script, the script will not dictate itself automatically, not doing anything, will dictate nothing from your side of things.
The USER dictates the movement of the dots or targets at which you are aiming your passes; in other words, the USER dictates the circumstances, and also reacts to the circumstances that materialize from the mix between attacking script vs defensive script: the attacking script vs the defensive script, the sum of the two scripts, will produce the actual script or circumstance that will subsequently materialize before your very eyes.
So even if you know what you intend to do, you never know how your opponent will react to it, you never know how the play that you have in your head will materialize because it will never actually materialize in the same identical way; due to all the potential differences in terms of
time and
space.
The mix between the attacking script vs the defensive script: the sum of the two scripts, will produce the actual script or circumstance that will subsequently materialize before your very eyes.
PES10 L2 STRATEGIES vs PLAY BY PLAY STRATEGIES
You cannot dictate play by play strategies in PES11; however, in PES10, you could dictate something similar to the play by play strategies that I discussed.
The key difference between the play b play strategies that I just explained and the play by play strategies that you could dictate in PES10; is that in PES10 it is an outdated and rigid concept,
a rigid system which is not determined by the movement and position of the ball: therefore, the USER can hardly dictate circumstances that affect
space.
With the PES10 L2 STRATEGIES, you could dictate strategies that affected space because you consciously dictated different passing angles; however, the passing angles or movement that you dictated was never determined by the movement and position of the ball.
For instance, in PES10, you don't have a strategy that reads: "by using this strategy, a selected individual will run towards the position of the ball, offering close support"
Such a strategy would be determined by the movement and position of the ball; however, we do not have that type of strategy in PES10 nor in PES11 nor in FIFA11, because even though it would be easily possible,
a strategy determined by the movement and position of the ball would break the old automatic and restrictive scripting.
So instead, we get Custom Settings A and Custom Settings B, which are settings that are not affected nor determined by the movement and position of the ball.
With enough practice, you can learn how to use the Custom Settings A and Custom Settings B, in a way where it gives the impression that the ball is determining the movement without the ball.... and it works, but it works in only two ways, only two variations, because it is a rigid system that is not determined by the movement and position of the ball.
In other words, with enough practice, you can use the Custom Settings A and Custom Settings B, and you can effectively dictate your own script, and can therefore react to the circumstance that you created.
However, even though you can somewhat manipulate and dictate your own script in PES10, the way you manipulate or dictate your own script works in the same identical way the COM dictates the script: it is never determined nor affected by the movement and position of the ball.
This means that the video game revolves around automatic and repetitive COM dictated circumstances which are not determined by the movement and position of the ball; and even though you could dictate your own script with PES10, the repetitive and scripted nature of the game remained intact, because the circumstances that the USER dictates are not determined by the movement and position of the ball.
In PES10 you have the L2 Strategies, and the Custom Settings A and Custom Settings B: which are rigid settings that are not affected by the movement and positioning of the ball, because the script is not determined by the movement and position of the ball,
the script is determined by the dots or targets that the COM always controls and that the USER never controls.
In other words, the movement without the ball (script) is not determined by the movement and position of the ball, it is pre-determined by the COM regardless of the position of he ball; and it can also be pre-determined by the USER, by using the Custom Settings A and Custom Settings B.
The fact that the movement without the ball is not determined nor affected by the movement and position of the ball, means that you cannot play anything remotely close to Football.
The Famicom Concept: automatic and restrictive concept which is not determined nor affected by the movement and positioning of the ball, because the script is not determined by the movement and position of the ball, the script is determined by the dots or targets that the COM always controls and that the USER never controls. In other words, the movement without the ball (script) is never determined nor affected by the movement and position of the ball, it is pre-determined by the COM regardless of the position of the ball.
The play by play strategies concept: a concept that revolves around the idea of USER dictated circumstances, the circumstances or "script" is determined by the position and movement of the dots or targets that the USER controls, and the movement and position of the dots or targets (script) is determined by the movement and position of the ball.
Another key difference is that the L2 Strategies that you could dictate in PES10, need to be turned on and turned off; on the other hand, the play by play strategies that I explained, would turn off automatically after being used in each play, and subsequently, the pressure sensitive L2 button would work to determine the speed or movement of the selected target: the USER dictates the circumstances in terms of
time.
Meaning that, in PES10 and PES11, you cannot really affect the speed of the game because the game-speed is automatic and scripted: completely COM dictated, which is why you have automatic game-speed settings such as -1 and +1.
And an obvious difference which I think deserves to be mentioned, would be the fact that PES10 is automatic and scripted; meaning that the game was designed to work without the L2 Strategies, meaning that dictating your own script is not a requirement for the game to function the way it was designed to function: the game will function automatically, on its own, you don't have to tell the COM what to do, because the game is designed so that the COM actually tells the USER what to do.
PES Famicom Football: the COM creates the circumstance, and the USER reacts to the COM dictated circumstance. This is what PES is all about, it has always been about reacting to COM dictated circumstances, it has never revolved around the idea of USER dictated circumstances.
PES Famicom Football: passing the ball in many different directions, is not revolutionary, when the COM has full control over the dots or targets at which you are aiming your passes. The COM dictates the circumstances, and the USER reacts to the COM dictated circumstances.
With PES11, the Custom Settings A and Custom Settings B, do not work for dictating USER dictated circumstances: it is now virtually impossible for the USER to dictate the circumstances.
After experiencing the massive difference between reacting to COM dictated circumstances, and, reacting to USER dictated circumstances; I am incapable of enjoying PES11, it is too easy and too scripted and too insubstantial, and I simply cannot enjoy it.
The Famicom Formula was bearable when the USER had the choice of dictating his own script (albeit with many limitations); however, PES11 is unbearable for me, because the USER has no choice other than reacting to COM dictated circumstances 100% of the time.
ANALOGUE STRATEGY
And with the already discussed
play by play strategies, I would also introduce the
analogue strategy.
The ANALOGUE STRATEGY, as you might have noticed, is not plural, because it only works for ONE selected individual.
Press and hold the L2 button + give a direction with the right analogue stick: the selected individual will start running in the given direction. After the initial touch on the right analogue stick, the L2 button will determine the speed at which the mentioned individual will move without the ball towards the given direction.
With the ANALOGUE STRATEGY you can create countless of passing angles, horizontal movement, diagonal movement, forward movement, backward movement, etc, etc.
If by pressing the "pressure" button, the player whom is closest to the ball carrier automatically starts running after the ball carrier.... Then why the fuck do I even need the left analogue stick just to run around like a fucking headless chicken? The cursing makes this statement powerful..
still I don't quite understand it. As at least personally I don't press pressure button all that much, only when in decent position and trying to "knock the ball" out of the attackers feet.. Pressing it in wrong times only cause you to fail. Which is great imo. Otherwise it's much about positioning and backing off I think.. so yes definitely left analogue stick plays a much bigger part than pressure-button. Also don't forget R2button on man marking.. How do you suggest the defending should be implemented to controlling your player?
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/15648.html
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/15899.html
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/16170.html
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/16390.html
About measuring your dribbling, I agree that maybe could be given a thought about left analogue working as analogue when it comes to dribbling speed (press less, run slower), but I don't know how this really would work in game in the end.. Might be a bit too complicated for player to fine tune his left analogue touch to control your player speed.
Indeed in PES2010 left analogue stick was pushed too far imo, as tricks and dribbling came from same stick. I think it was a good implemention by Konami to get right analogue stick to help with tricks.
Let's make one last thing straight: I agree there are glitches in the game! I agree and I'm angry that Konami keeps breaking toys that were working on last version. There's definitely so much bugs in the game that it makes me wonder did they ever Beta-test the game at all..
Still I'm not into negativity as much as I'm into "work with it".. I'm still having fun with the game, and trying my best to make it as enjoyable as possible by learning how to play PES2011 and so work around as many it's problems as possible.
I'm NOT trying to bend the game to my will, to work as I'd want, as haha a game cannot be reasoned with.
Some of you should just accept the fact that PES2011 is indeed a GAME. Not a football simulator in all it's matters!
And all the games you can learn to beat, if it doesn't seem like fun to learn to beat it. It's smarter just to quit playing.
Funny how you said "let's communicate?" even though it is blatantly obvious that you have zero interest in communicating.
What was it that you said: "
Some of you should just accept the fact that PES2011 is indeed a GAME. Not a football simulator in all it's matters! "
And I reply, do you want to communicate? or do you want to justify your opinion as a fact? that we need to accept that video games cannot be better?
Some people, like you, need to learn to acknowledge and distinguish the difference between opinions and facts.
My opinion is, that I can play PES10 but I cannot play PES11 due to the simple reason that I cannot tolerate such an automatic video game; which is one of countless examples, of how much opinions differ.
I do not respect your opinion, but nevertheless, I am not going to tell you what you should accept, because you are entitled to an opinion; however stupid or fucked up your opinion might be.
You have little idea of what you are talking about, little idea of how the game could and should play, and your argument is very obvious and easy: condescending and arrogant, for you to tell me what I should accept, when you are not well informed.
I don't accept it, I have sold the video game because it is in fact a COM dictated ride, it expired, I cannot enjoy it anymore and I will not accept it in year 2010.
If you can enjoy the video game regardless of the facts, have a kick with it, enjoy it; but please, spare me the self-righteous bullshit about how I should accept or pretend that your opinion is a fact.
