For the best lawn care in cedar park, please visit our sponsor at lawn service cedar park They are a local lawn care and landscaping company that provide services in such as lawn care, lawn mowing, weeding, and landscape maintenance in Cedar Park, Austin, Round Rock, and Leander area. They are located at:

Lawn Care Service of Cedar Park 100 E Whitestone Blvd Ste 148, #166 Cedar Park, TX 78613 (512) 595-0884

Stop The Scripted Cheating

iamcanadianeh

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
Tech_Skill said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIZmQ7F1EZg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcnwsq-5Ob8

*Yawn*

I cant believe im having to post vids on this, i thought most people who played pes since psx days knew pes has ALWAYS cheated to some degree, and fifa 09 does it as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Finally got a chance to check those out.

1st one is obviously either fake, or it's something no one else has ever seen. Not worth discussing anyway...

2nd video is pretty good, but a few things:

1. The movement towards the player is a failed attempt to shoulder charge. If you have a look at it you can see that this is clearly a game feature which is problematic. We need to have a reasonable definition of what cheating is though. A gameplay glitch is not the same as cheating! In other words, the CPU didn't decide to make that happen so that they can have the ball.

2. The one glitch they show with the keeper who makes the save without touching the ball... Again, I agree this is a glitch, and probably one of the worst ones in this year's game, but if you think it's done on purpose, I think it's a stretch to call it cheating. If you interpret it as cheating by the CPU so that they will win, then again, ask yourself why, and also ask why it happens in your own favour as well. Sorry, I just really don't buy into this conspiracy theory. I think of it more as problems with the game, which every game has.

3. The miraculous save with the keeper's leg... Again, just an utter coincidence. Do you really think the keeper AI is that good? No, these things are really only happening because of bad, or inadequate AI (because the designers can't possibly predict every possible occurence that can happen). If you watch the keeper's animation, then it's clear that he makes one canned animation, very smooth, and that the trajectory of the ball just happens to hit his leg. Reading more into it than that is just crazy!!! It's actually the exact opposite of what the caption in the video says, because the keeper didn't know that the ball would be centered. If there was a distinct kicking motion by the keeper that woud be another thing, but it's clearly one simple animation and a pure coincidence.

One more thing - there has been some talk about defenders catching up to attackers, even with lowered stats... On Top Player in PES 09 it's true that just about no player can outrun a defender with the ball. That's just the way it is, and the reason for this is that it has been too easy to exploit, particularly on the wings, in previous versions. TBH, that is a bit unrealistic, but again, it's one thing to point out unrealistic AI or glitches, but to claim that the AI somehow knows what you are doing and plans to make certain things happen so that they will win is something I think you need to think real long and hard about before flaming others for not looking at it that way. You're entitled to have that opinion, but I'm on here to say that it really seems much more clear and obvious if you look at it as parts of the programming of the game which may seem a certain way, but really are not put in there to piss you off. Again, I'm not saying that these things don't happen, just that I don't believe the conspiracy theory for one second. There are several facts which in fact disprove this, the main one, as I mentioned before, is that the AI will push forward when down a goal (as often happens in a real game) but their success rate at finishing is far from being better. In fact, I have seen them miss open nets, penalties, etc when they are pressing hard. I also think the appearance that your own passes go astray on purpose is an illusion as well, due the AI pressing harder (when under pressure passes go astray when players have lower technique, and when the other team presses more they are also much more likely to intercept).

Anyway, it's been an interesting topic for me, just because I feel that some people are misunderstanding the game, and how games in general work... but I think those are my final words now that I've had a chance to respond to the kinds of things that people are talking about specifically.
 
Amateur

Amateur

Registered User
There is Cheating... I'm not even going to bother repeating everything that's been said in here.

The Momentum Shifts are completely out of you hands, and are entirely Dictated by the COM -this- is how PES09 works. And in my opinion it's scripted -depending- on some pre-determined numbers; how much the COM will attack, how much times you will attack, etc, etc.

Scripted doesn't means that the result is decided before hand. It just means that the Momentum Shifts will go against you in That game. Therefore your Team's off-the-ball movement and Passing will not be as good as usual.

That said, you can still easily win by using the appropriate Strategies. Although it still is quite boring because the COM haves too much control over your Team, and there's nothing you can really do about that.

This all goes hand-in-hand with the fact that PES still is to this day 'based' on the d-pad which is an 8 Directional Control. So whenever a Passing angle or Shooting angle is too intricate for the d-pad to handle -the- COM starts improvising, and this is when the Luck factor comes in, which is quite consistently.

The fact that the game is excessively Assisted by the COM is indicative of "Scripting". Or in other words Cheating, because it is completely out of your hands, the off-the-ball movement of your players is completely out of your hands.

There's really nothing else to say here. Some people notice this when they play the game -but- other people (for some reason) do not notice it enough.
 
iamcanadianeh

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
Thanks Amateur. That's a good summary of your perspective. Again, I totally disagree. I think it may seem that your team performs worse, but that it's just an illusion. I hope we both agree that you shouldn't have control over when the opposing team will perform better or worse, and if so, then the only think we disagree on is whether your own team performs better or worse as determined by the AI. Personally, I have never, honestly noticed my own team perform worse, but I have noticed the com perform better.
 
Amateur

Amateur

Registered User
iamcanadianeh said:
Thanks Amateur. That's a good summary of your perspective. Again, I totally disagree. I think it may seem that your team performs worse, but that it's just an illusion. I hope we both agree that you shouldn't have control over when the opposing team will perform better or worse, and if so, then the only think we disagree on is whether your own team performs better or worse as determined by the AI. Personally, I have never, honestly noticed my own team perform worse, but I have noticed the com perform better.
Click to expand...

It's not an illusion, your Team's off-the-ball movement gets slower and more inaccurate when the Momentum is against you. The Momentum is completely dictated by the COM -and- the momentum is directly linked with off-the-ball movement. Therefore the game is "scripted" to a certain extent.

Magic is an Illusion... however, the PES Cheating is NOT an illusion. The evidence is the game itself, there's no need for proof, just take your time and watch the replays -and- watch how the COM pulls all the strings in terms of off-the-ball movement.

With better off-the-ball movement your Team performs better. On the other hand, with worst off-the-ball movement your team will not perform as good as usual. It's a basic principle, off-the-ball movement is essential, without it you cannot play quality football.

So, Konami implemented some Momentum Shifts into the game, the same momentum concept that has been used in PES for many years now. When the momentum is against you -your- opponent will have better off-the-ball movement. Therefore Your Team will perform worse for the time being.

I think the "Illusion" here is that you actually think that the AI doesn't determines if your Team will perform better or worst. That's an illusion, you think you're in control of it when in fact the COM is pulling the strings.

Do you honestly think a Vast majority is under This Illusion you mentioned??

Perhaps you have a point in that it is not cheating, because it affects both sides almost equally, and it provides us with a few strategies to counter against it. However, because we have NO control over it, this makes it "scripted" to a certain extent. And some people consider that to be Cheating.

In real-life many people see different realities... But I don't think that's the case when criticizing a Simulation GAME. There are no different realities in this case, the game is the same product For everyone.
 
iamcanadianeh

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
I think that this is an important discussion because we're really talking about some of the nitty gritty of the gameplay and AI. I also think it's good that we are trying to work together to try to summarize these concerns, which to some degree both sides of the argument have. Maybe it will result in some good suggestions we can make for Konami in the future.

I will do some play testing on the weekend with these things in mind and try to be open minded about the issue. One thing I will have to try is using default strategies. I've been thinking that some of the strategies I employ might be making this seem much less of a problem for me than it is for others. For example, I use SBs converted to CBs, manual attack/defense levels, counter attack, and pressure (almost always). If I went to default, maybe I would begin to swear about these things like the rest of you!??!
 
Amateur

Amateur

Registered User
iamcanadianeh said:
I think that this is an important discussion because we're really talking about some of the nitty gritty of the gameplay and AI. I also think it's good that we are trying to work together to try to summarize these concerns, which to some degree both sides of the argument have. Maybe it will result in some good suggestions we can make for Konami in the future.

I will do some play testing on the weekend with these things in mind and try to be open minded about the issue. One thing I will have to try is using default strategies. I've been thinking that some of the strategies I employ might be making this seem much less of a problem for me than it is for others. For example, I use SBs converted to CBs, manual attack/defense levels, counter attack, and pressure (almost always). If I went to default, maybe I would begin to swear about these things like the rest of you!??!
Click to expand...

No doubt, this was/is a great thread... there are a lot of good suggestions and discussions already. One of the best threads I've seen in all the PES Forums I've visited.

Anyways...

You can use different Strategies depending on the situation -but- How well your players execute your thoughts is entirely dictated by the COM. If the Momentum is Against you and you start applying pressure, your players will not do it right because your off-the-ball movement will be poor for the time being.

The COM doesn't knows how to take advantage of this... But a Human Opponent will spot it very quickly, and will know how to exploit it. The COM dictates the flow of the game, and you have absolutely no say in that, you cannot Manipulate that.

And again, What determines How well each Individual executes your directions?? What determines How Much an individual runs off-the-ball?? And what determines How Well an individual moves off-the-ball?

Nothing! it's all dictated by the COM. There are no Stats for the off-the-ball movements. There are no Stats for Defensive Awareness, or Work Rate, etc, etc.

And consequently, Leo Messi is actually better than Makelele at playing the "Makelele Role". The Tactical Side of the game is treated as a mere casualty, and this results in poor Team Likenesses.

You can use just about any Strategy Successfully with Any Big Team. Chelsea, Barcelona, Inter, Man Utd, AC Milan... it doesn't matter that much. And again, the COM dictates how the Momentum flows.

The 8 Directional Limitations + the COM-Dictated Momentum Shifts... PES always haves a balance between Luck and Skill. Back in PES5 and PES6 this balance seemed to be right... but since going Next Gen, this balance has gone missing in PES. You could even say that Luck overshadows Skill.

Some people are "better" than others because they know how to exploit the flaws better than most players. However, they do not play the game properly.

To put it simply:

* Konami must move on from the D-Pad. The Left Stick will provide more depth to the game, and will lessen the Luck factor.

* Konami should replace the Old "Arrows" concept for a more active one. An arrows concept that changes continuously in-game and affects Individual performances in-game. Therefore dictating the Momentum of the game, whilst at the same time giving us further options and lessening the Luck factor. As Manipulating the Momentum would be yet another skill to master.

* Konami must update their Stats and Special Abilities... the game is in need of New Stats in a couple of areas, the most obvious ones being Tactical Awareness. We should have Stats for Tactical Awareness and Work rate, which are things that we cannot control. So that it is impossible to use Any Strategy Successfully with Any Big Team.

* Konami must Revolutionize Tactical Play... they already did this with the Wii versions. It's time to do the same with the PS3/360 versions.

PES5 and PES6 where well ahead of their Time... But Konami must move on from that, the game needs big improvements. Minor tweaks are no longer satisfactory. Even more so considering this are Next Gen Consoles that are easily capable of better and more challenging games.

The Wii versions are showing innovation in some areas, and yet they still have that old feeling.
 
iamcanadianeh

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
Yeah, there are no stats for off the ball movement, defensive awareness, or work rate, and I think that some more stats of that type would be a good idea, but I just wanted to point out that there is response, which determines how quickly a player will respond to your commands, and also helps in them taking better positioning. Also, don't forget agression, which determines to what degree a player will make runs out of their normal position, so that means "off the ball runs" by players with higher agression will be quicker/better. I think you have a point there about Messi being better in DMF because his response and agression are high, so that actually might be where a new stat is needed, which I would think would be work rate, to differentiate between attacking work rate and defending work rate.

Also, there's teamwork, and the teamwork ratings between specific players which determines things like how well two players link up, or when one player will make a run for another player (which is also determined by the playmaker special ability).

I think the only thing to do though is hold tight and for those of you who are extrememly unhappy with the AI in 09, hopefully the fact that in 2010 players will have individual AI based on what type of player they are will make a big difference for 2010.

...Off to play ML, with default tactics, but if I lose I'm resetting it and playing the game the way I normally do ;)
 
iamcanadianeh

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
^Yeah, that could be the ticket.

BTW - not seeing a major difference when using default tactics (none), though when I switched from Manual attack/defense levels to auto, some strange things began to happen. I conceded about twice as many goals as I normally do, though I still haven't lost this way yet ( 1 draw, 6 wins). I'll need to test more this way, but I think that could be part of why I don't see the problems others are complaining about. Coincidentally, however, I actually found that my own players were making much better off the ball runs when using "recommended" i.e. auto attack/defence levels. It seems like in general that the cpu dictates the momentum much more when you don't have these on manual, but of course that's obviously not the whole issue. I would, however, recommend trying manual attack/defense for anyone who doesn't use it already. I have never liked letting the cpu decide when I want to pressure and when I want to tighten up more.
 
F

frost06

Registered User
in regards to youtube video about the guy who lost 50k, i would like u all to take notice of where the goalie is when his players are in the opposing half............he's damn near his defensive like.........i cant tell u how many times a friend of mine who is of lesser skill has intercepted a pass and blasted from almost the half line over my keepers head and into the goal and when i asked him about the shot he said he didnt direct it so it seems that no matter where u take a shot from it seems to go towards goal even if u dont direct it which can be a pain when ur playing with someone who loves to shoot from distance and have a golie who wants to be a defender
 
N

newbyte

Registered User
After playing nothing but 30min games since PES2009 came out i have seen alot of scripted moments and after awhile you get a sense of when they are going to happen. Now i've switched to 15 min games and i find it alot more tolerable now but its still noticable.

I've also played all my become a legend games with 30mins as a DMF. Im the sort of person who likes close low scoring games but some just got ridiculous and sometimes when my team (Mainly ManU) scored the other would have to score within the next 5-10mins no matter how much i went back and helped out the defence. I would go crazy playing a Striker in become a legend mode with 30min games, so many silly goals....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top