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Used PSD Stats - Realism ruined

Andy99

Registered User
I used PSD Stats for all Premier League sides, with tweaks here and there of course, as I know PSD tend to overrate certain players.

Anyway, I have simulated four-five seasons, and the league table is completely unrealistic.

Top sides, like Manchester City, Manchester United or Tottenham often struggle to even make it to the Europa League (7th place). While, Fulham and Aston Villa, on the other hand ends among the top 4, with Zamora scoring 15 goals for Fulham and Heskey and Bent combining a double of 30 goals. Every season there is always one or two top sides ending just above bottom half, while mid-table sides ends in the top 4.

I badly need some help as this is extremely annoying at times. Is the clue to raise the top side players even more, to reduce the middle team players need.

Thanks in advance. :)
 

abu97

Registered User
I used PSD Stats for all Premier League sides, with tweaks here and there of course, as I know PSD tend to overrate certain players.

Anyway, I have simulated four-five seasons, and the league table is completely unrealistic.

Top sides, like Manchester City, Manchester United or Tottenham often struggle to even make it to the Europa League (7th place). While, Fulham and Aston Villa, on the other hand ends among the top 4, with Zamora scoring 15 goals for Fulham and Heskey and Bent combining a double of 30 goals. Every season there is always one or two top sides ending just above bottom half, while mid-table sides ends in the top 4.

I badly need some help as this is extremely annoying at times. Is the clue to raise the top side players even more, to reduce the middle team players need.

Thanks in advance. :)
PSD stats overrate too much players that are weak and underrate a few star players. This is why there is little difference between top sides and average sides

If you look at someone like Eden Hazards stats, it looks similar to c.ronaldo's which is just a basic example when I say there is a little difference between a world-class player and a youngster
 

StringerBell

Registered User
I used PSD Stats for all Premier League sides, with tweaks here and there of course, as I know PSD tend to overrate certain players.

Anyway, I have simulated four-five seasons, and the league table is completely unrealistic.

Top sides, like Manchester City, Manchester United or Tottenham often struggle to even make it to the Europa League (7th place). While, Fulham and Aston Villa, on the other hand ends among the top 4, with Zamora scoring 15 goals for Fulham and Heskey and Bent combining a double of 30 goals. Every season there is always one or two top sides ending just above bottom half, while mid-table sides ends in the top 4.

I badly need some help as this is extremely annoying at times. Is the clue to raise the top side players even more, to reduce the middle team players need.

Thanks in advance. :)

If you want my opinion a good deal of the Premier League sides are overrated to begin with. However the best way to use PSD stats is to minus 3 on all abilities. Also that database for some reason or another gives everyone a shot power of 81 :erm: They also give all players very high mentality and teamwork settings. So just subtract 3 when using that database and it should be a tab bit better.
 

abu97

Registered User
If you want my opinion a good deal of the Premier League sides are overrated to begin with. However the best way to use PSD stats is to minus 3 on all abilities. Also that database for some reason or another gives everyone a shot power of 81 :erm: They also give all players very high mentality and teamwork settings. So just subtract 3 when using that database and it should be a tab bit better.
But subtracting 3 could underrate a lot of players stats -
messi would have 81 top speed and 91 dribble speed or 84 shot accuracy so I would decrease it by 1 or 2.

You are right about the epl as bramble and heskey are overrated IMO
 

Sabatasso

Banned
The main difference between clubs aren't a players technical abilities or passing accuracy. It's the amount of players able to do the right thing at the right time, and the team work as well as tactical aspects. A game like PES can never really simulate that, heck FM 2012 even struggle to make it realistic and balanced.

On that note, increasing team work on players in certain top clubs will at least make them much harder to play against. I haven't really tested the effect on simulated games though.
 

metsuri69

Registered User
To me PSD simply doesn't work.
As already stated it overrates players and leaves little room for improvement to some youngsters (they end up way too good in the end).

I always see in PSD forums them ADDING points to players, rarely removing points.
"hey he pulled a neat trick last weekend lets give him a dribble accuracy point" ..nono
 

Sabatasso

Banned
I agree with you metsuri69, but the Konami defaults are also pretty bad. Every player who isn't in a top team is severly underrated. It's pretty bad when players who you know for a fact is among the fastest players in the world, and is rated at 78 Top Speed by Konami because they don't play in England or Spain.

I think PSD makes the game much more fun, especially two player mode. But I've made modifications, like Messi is the only player with Speed Merchant in the database. I've made changes to Form, making sure that only players who consitently play good games have a form stat above 6. But I know that I am hardly subjective when judging hundreds of players, but at least I am happy with the result. I've also made sure that good players in top teams have a little more Team Work and Ball Control than PSD originally gave them. It's a small change, 2-3 points, but it seems to make a big difference on the teams performance. I've only just begun testing with BAL and league, but it seems that top teams remain stable at the top with these tweaks.
 

Andy99

Registered User
The main difference between clubs aren't a players technical abilities or passing accuracy. It's the amount of players able to do the right thing at the right time, and the team work as well as tactical aspects. A game like PES can never really simulate that, heck FM 2012 even struggle to make it realistic and balanced.

On that note, increasing team work on players in certain top clubs will at least make them much harder to play against. I haven't really tested the effect on simulated games though.

Correct me if I understood it the wrong way...

If I decrease average sides mentality (tenacity) and teamwork stats, while improving the same stats in the big teams, the overall result will be that the big side players will be more successful in decision making (passing/shooting etc.), as well as having better stats in general, this will create a realistic gap between the top and average teams.

And to the above one:

Totally agree about the development of youth players when using PSD stats. There are way too many average youngsters that will end up as world class players within just a couple of seasons.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
@Andy99
I'll try to make it clear what I mean, what I did and why.

I don't think that every player in the Manchester United squad is better than their counterparts in Bolton, for example. So I want a game database to reflect that. Bale, for example, who can outrun any player in the world, is simply not fast enough in PES by default. I don't think PES is consequently bad here, but on some level I wonder why certain top club players are considerably faster, stronger and more lethal in front of goal than what one could expect when comparing to amazing players in smaller clubs who are simply too often rated as rubbish. So I have tried to find other stats and abilities to make the better teams still perform better, even if their players aren't supreme individually. I've used PSD as a basis, because I don't know every player in the world. Quaresma, for example, should be a beast individually. He is fast, he has technique like you wouldn't believe, but he is far from clever, he is not a team player, and that's why he isn't the star he probably could (should?) have been. In my database he is exactly that, insane technical, fast and powerful. But the lack in Team Work makes him position himself weird, defenders can easily mark him, and he is more or less invisible when off the ball. Ryan Babel is also a good example of raw football talent, but with a severe lack of vision and teamwork ability.

So, I've left the technical and physical attributes more or less alone, but I've changed mainly Team Work up by 2-3 points on top clubs across the board. In some cases I've taken it up much more, to be honest, because I don't think a player below 75 Team Work would be of any worth what so ever to a top club in the first place. Barcelona, for example, have an average of 85 Team Work after my changes, and if I only count the regular starters (about 14 players), it's closing in on 90. Manchester United, City and Real Madrid have an average around 84, when only counting regular starters and subs.

I've globally reduced Response by 3 points to make the game feel a little more "loose". Where the ball can bounce free for a few seconds, and where players don't always react in nano seconds. But certain players have gotten these three points back. I found that it was necessary in order to make teams like Barcelona perform as close as possible to what they do in real life. As you may have noticed, PSD have rated many Barca players around 75 in this ability. I've modified it so that most top clubs are around the same level in this ability, and it's around 80. Form arrows have a huge effect on this stat, though, and its impact on game performance is huge, especially when AI controlled. But the difference isn't bigger than that where Barcelona has 82 average response, Tottenham got 77. On a really good day, Spurs can beat Barca, in other words.

In 10 simulated games Barca won 7 games against Spurs, 2 draws and one loss. The 19-6 goal difference in Barca's favor speaks for itself, though. I've also been testing Arsenal vs Spurs the same way, and with 11-9 in Arsenals favor, Spurs still won 4 out of 6 so far. I aimed to make these two clubs fairly even, without messing with anything but mental abilities.

Mentality will make players tire less during games, and possibly also stalling the fatigue bar when using accumulated fatigue options in certain game modes. I've been testing with it before, but in this particular experiment I have not touched it other than raising it globally (all players in the database) by 3 points.

I've globally changed the form by one point, but to a minimum of 4 in this experiment. Players on red arrows are simply godlike, and PSD have most good players at 7 out of 8, and while there are grounds for debate on the subject, it simply does not work that well in the actual game in my opinion. A player on form level 6 will be at green arrow most of the time, and orange more than blue. I've noticed that by doing this change, the teams perform more often as expected because the players actual abilities are less frequently improved by the red arrows galore that regular PSD database offer. Which in turn helps the best teams stay a head above the others over the course of a season.

So my changes aren't big, but the difference is huge.
 

Andy99

Registered User
@Sabatasso

Very interesting read.

I never knew how powerful the teamwork and mentality stats were in PES, and since the overall rating aren't affected by these two stats, I simply gave every player the teamwork and mentality stats according to PSD.

About the examples of Ricardo Quaresma and Ryan Babel. Just to confirm if I understood it the right way. Both players have great abilities individually, but struggles to interact with other players and the understanding of the game. So if a team is consisting of players with poor teamwork and mentality stats, but with great technical abilities, speed and power, this team will never be great in the long run due to the fact this team is average or poor in the teamwork and mentality department.

About form, this is an area where I have committed many errors according to your analysis. Since PSD give more or less every player 6-8 in form, I gave them that as well, without understanding the form system in general.

On the other hand, players like Shay Given, Brede Hangeland, Christopher Samba and Fabricio Coloccini are all players with great consistency, and deserves a form of 6-8 in my opinion. But i guess your system opens for certain players with great form in a mid-table team.

Can you give me a few examples of players at mid-table teams, their overall rating, response, form, mentality and teamwork stats, just so I understand how you work, and compare them to a few top players at top teams.

Thanks a lot for helping me understand the stat system in PES, and thanks in advance for future help. :)
 

Sabatasso

Banned
I forgot to add that I have not modified Keeper form arrows. I figured they need every boost they can get. And yes, you understood my Babel-Quaresma allusion perfectly.

W!ld@'s PES editor lets you do these global edits in seconds btw.


A player like Gattuso, who isn't really great at anything but Stamina, Mentality and well.. being aggressive, yet he is a great player at a very strong team. To reflect that, I gave him 84 Response (One more than before the global -3), so even though he looks like a poor footballer, he will be a pain in the ass to play against.

In my DB, Newcastle got an average of 76 response and teamwork, for example. And most teams between 7th and 14th place in real life is in that area. 75-77 average, but note that it's just a coincidence that Newcastle got 76 for both.

Also note that a team with a generally high team work will play well together, and maintain possession better. Possession is also influenced by strategies, however. A team with higher average team work will simply be harder to keep clean sheets against. But team work does not seem to affect a teams defense much. I haven't touched Defense abilities, and team strategies affect this one too to a large degree. If you change strategies to "fit" your opponents, the game will become much easier. For example playing wide against a team that defends narrow, and so on.

I agree with your assessment of Samba, Hangeland etc. But my point about form is that 8 is too much for everyone, especially outfield players, because the red form arrow upset balance too much, and a player with 8 have more red arrows than all the others combined over a season. That is why I have "capped" the form at 6 for outfield players, but I have a very select few at 7. But I have capped the negative form as well, at 4. A player with 4 form will be on a blue form quite often, and that's not ideal. But in coalition with my other tweaks, this one is perhaps the most effective one to make the "better" teams actually better over the course of a season.

Even if 8 is allowed by the game, but the "soft cap" is at 6, and 7 for keepers and a very few other players of your assessment, then 6 is still pretty damn good. It basically mean that more often than not, you wake up fresh as a health guru, ready to over-perform.

Look here for a form arrow chart I posted earlier;
http://www.pesgaming.com/showpost.php?p=1839462&postcount=15

I don't know exactly how accurate it is, because it's for PES5. But from testing, it looks generally quite accurate.

By looking at the chart, physical abilities are increased by 12% with a red form arrow.

80*1.12=89.6~90
85*1.12=95.2~95

See where I am going with this?

Red arrows upsets balance, and PSD database only increase that balance issue by making the gap between good and great players smaller. But by reducing the effect of form, by simply reducing form, you restore balance on a large scale. And only fringe sparks of form, which is realistic, can result in a smaller team killing a giant.

But before you go completely overboard. It's really enough to increase Team Work from the PSD database on certain teams that you can easily assess needs it. Leave the rest at default (PSD or Konami), because the problem isn't at mid table. The problem is when United goes three consecutive seasons without being close to the top of the table.
 

Andy99

Registered User
Thanks a lot for your help, Sabatasso.

I have now default stats on every single player in the Premier League, and I will start all over again, with emphasis on balance between top and mid-table teams, using your analysis and as an important foundation (teamwork, response, mentality and form). Will you recommend to use an Excel sheet to calculate the average of teamwork, respone and mentality for each team?

I'm relieved that I still can replicate players in a realistic fashion in terms of their passing accuracy, speed, power, etc, but as I said earlier I wasn't aware of how powerful an 7 or 8 in form was in PES.

I also noticed that by defaulting stats at for example Fulham, players like Schwarzer, Hangeland, Riise, Murphy, Dempsey, Zamora or Davies is all at 6 or below, and these were players who had 7 or 8 in form when i used PSD stats on form. I totally agree that over a long season a player perform at a green arrow if he's having a good season, having the odd orange/red day throughout the season, but by having 7 or 8 he's at orange/red more often than green, and that's what ruins the realism.

About W!ld@'s PES editor, I'm on PlayStation 3, as far as i understand it W!ld@'s PES editor is only available on PC.

So I will have to spend a couple of days re-editing Premier League, then I will report back how it went after simulating a few seasons after I'm done.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain everything in such good detail for me. :)
 

Andy99

Registered User
Damn, it's working! :eek:hmy: Thanks for your help!

I'm not quite finished yet, as I have decided to re-do a lot of teams in La Liga BBVA and Serie A as well, and I'm still missing some Premier League sides (done 14-15 so far).

I have simulated 5-6 seasons so far, and Manchester City, Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Tottenham have all ended within the top 6, always with a gap down to 7th.

In La Liga BBVA Real Madrid and Barcelona have always finished 1st or 2nd, usually with a huge gap to 3rd.

Sabatasso said:
Which in turn helps the best teams stay a head above the others over the course of a season.

What you say there is definitely correct. I have always simulated in bits, like 10 games at the time to follow the development of the season. For example Real Madrid was 9th after around 10 games, but finished 2nd in the end, and by reducing form as you recommended the underdog can have that odd day where they beat the big gun, just like in real football, but over a season the big sides are usually stronger.
 

RAMAXWY

Registered User
i think the PSD stats was a great idea in the beginning and the had a few great stat makers at that time.
it was the main reason the site became so popular.
but because their where no rules this is the problem we got in the end.
the site is now occupied by fans.
because they are fans, they don't make the stats in an objective manner but just want to see their favorite club or player do well in the game and this is the end result.
i for one mostly just leave the stats KONAMI gave the players as is, since i know i won't be able to adjust the whole database and don't wanna unbalance the game too much.
 

Luisao82

Registered User
PSD may not be perfect (perfection can't be achieved in this case, anyway).
But to say that KONAMI stats are more realistic, that's just absurd.

There may be some biased stats on some players, but overall, PSD stats are the closest you can get for realistic stats. KONAMI stats are simply a joke, and they have always been.
 

abu97

Registered User
PSD may not be perfect (perfection can't be achieved in this case, anyway).
But to say that KONAMI stats are more realistic, that's just absurd.

There may be some biased stats on some players, but overall, PSD stats are the closest you can get for realistic stats. KONAMI stats are simply a joke, and they have always been.
KONAMI might not be more realistic but PSD just ruins the core concept of the game. Nearly every young player have god-like stats for their age making them unstoppable in master league and there is little difference between a good team and a poor team - you play Barca and they are Blackburn, in real life you' expec a hammering. Instead you get a marginal win of 1-0 or a draw. Every player has too good stats as they are made from fans and KONAMI stats are neutral which is why you don't see overpowered japanese players and only some KONAMI stats are a joke
 

Luisao82

Registered User
Master League has a concept of it's own. Even with the lower stats of KONAMI (for younger players), many of them develop so damn fast in that mode, that in 4 or 5 years you'll have lots of Hazards and Drogbas.

As for you playing Barca and having difficulty hammering Blackburn, I can only assume that comes down to your skills. My 13 years old stepson is playing Arsenal in ML (Superstar level, his 1st season), and just yesterday he defeated Wolves 4-1 and then Swansea by 3-1 (something like that).

And of course, we applied PSD stats in the most important leagues.
 

abu97

Registered User
Common, PSD stats just ruin the whole game

Look at Smallings stats-
http://pesstatsdatabase.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=17535

He already looks like one of the best defenders in the world with these stats and tbh, if every player had PS3 stats, it'd just be an arcade game with overrated players and players like Heskey scoring goals with his shooting accuracy. In some circumstamces, I would prefer the PSD stats but KONAMI overall would make the gameplay most realistic as there is more player individuality. Anyway you can't call PSD realistic for giving torres goal poacher and giving nearly every player teamwork and power around the 80's
 
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