Constructive Criticism on PES09

[trigglebeef]

Fucking hell Amateur you really are dumb. All that happens is that when you are palying poorly and misplacing passes etc, the computer gains the momentum. If you are outplaying the computer then you gain the momentum. And this is all that does happen in PES and Fifa, and is all that is needed to happen. Those times where it feels like the computer is playing out of it's skin are a due to a combination of you not playing to your best level (duie to frustration, fatigue or whatever), and employing the wrong formation/tactics, nothing more, nothing less.

If the computer needs a goal it changes to an attacking formation applying pressure high up the pitch. If you can't deal with this and keep the ball long enough to push up they will have the momentum. Same as when you're losing and need a goal. The computer will sit back and defend it's lead allowing you to have all the momentum as long as you are playing well. It's all very basic logic that doesn't require any algorithm whatsoever. A momentum algorithm is only going to cause scripting.

 

[trigglebeef]

That's exactly what I do not want -- "predicting" human mental states.

Wouldn't it be better if they just "dictated" human mental states ?? By the use of 2 Stats and an in-game Confidence Level gauge? It would be a truly Unbiased Concept.

And it would cover both Individual and Collective aspects.

Meaning that if you have the momentum against you, there is the possibility that one of your Individuals is on fire with a Confidence Level of 90%. So even if your being played by your opponent, you could still decide a match with an Individual touch of brilliance.

It is very different to the "arrows/form" system that Konami has been using for years. Because it would Continually change during the game, and you would get to see just how much it changes during gameplay.

Which is something that simply cannot be done with the "arrows".

And it would be a truly Unbiased Concept, as the sum of each player's confidence level will equal the Team's Overall confidence level. The team with the best CL will have the momentum on their side, meaning that the momentum would feel different in every Play.

The "momentum shifts" would be dictated by many different factors, from Stats to everything that goes on in the pitch. Everything that happens on the pitch will reflect on each player's "Mentality" and consequently on the in-game confidence level gauge.

The Confidence Level gauge would then have a direct influence on the match, because if a player haves a Low CL, consequently his Stats will do Down. Meaning that Individuals will in fact be players of lesser quality for a given time.

And by the same logic, if the player haves a particularly High CL -- his Stats would Increase positively.

Therefore, if the momentum is on your side, you would get to feel a significant difference in "off-the-ball work rate". Whereas your opponent will get to see how his team suddenly looses motivation.

If a good Passer haves a particularly low Confidence Level, maybe he'll miss-time his passes. Instead of the Random bad-passes that usually occur in PES09.

You could keep building up on your momentum play after play. Or maybe if it's a very contested match it'll go from side to side. Point of the matter is that the "momentum shifts" would have solid Reasons behind them.

My apologies if this came up as a "rant".. just trying to elaborate on a point. Anyways, would it be that complicated to implement??

Reading this is painful. Why would i want my whole team to turn to shit when the computer has a good spell, making it nigh on impossible to dig my way out. And why on earth would i want one of my players to keep a high confidence gauge, encouraging me to just try and get the ball to him as much as possible rather than playing a proper team game? Your own mentality and confidence dictates how momentum shifts in the game, you don't need the computer to control this for you. FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sandaweches]

Fucking hell Amateur you really are dumb. All that happens is that when you are palying poorly and misplacing passes etc, the computer gains the momentum. If you are outplaying the computer then you gain the momentum. And this is all that does happen in PES and Fifa, and is all that is needed to happen. Those times where it feels like the computer is playing out of it's skin are a due to a combination of you not playing to your best level (duie to frustration, fatigue or whatever), and employing the wrong formation/tactics, nothing more, nothing less.

If the computer needs a goal it changes to an attacking formation applying pressure high up the pitch. If you can't deal with this and keep the ball long enough to push up they will have the momentum. Same as when you're losing and need a goal. The computer will sit back and defend it's lead allowing you to have all the momentum as long as you are playing well. It's all very basic logic that doesn't require any algorithm whatsoever. A momentum algorithm is only going to cause scripting.

I did notice that in BAL and when we play well we score goals, but when passes are not connecting and loosing possession alot, the momentum tips I guess and end up conceding goals.

 

[trigglebeef]

BAL is a whole different story though. In that situation i can see where Amateur's ideas may have some relevance. But momentum shifts are a pattern that will naturally occur even when it's com vs com. It's your job as the human player to do your best to dictate the momentum swing in favour of your team. Unfortunately in Pro Evo the AI is so poor that this can become a very frustrating and tedious task.

 

[Amateur]

Fucking hell Amateur you really are dumb. All that happens is that when you are palying poorly and misplacing passes etc, the computer gains the momentum. If you are outplaying the computer then you gain the momentum. And this is all that does happen in PES and Fifa, and is all that is needed to happen. Those times where it feels like the computer is playing out of it's skin are a due to a combination of you not playing to your best level (duie to frustration, fatigue or whatever), and employing the wrong formation/tactics, nothing more, nothing less.

If the computer needs a goal it changes to an attacking formation applying pressure high up the pitch. If you can't deal with this and keep the ball long enough to push up they will have the momentum. Same as when you're losing and need a goal. The computer will sit back and defend it's lead allowing you to have all the momentum as long as you are playing well. It's all very basic logic that doesn't require any algorithm whatsoever. A momentum algorithm is only going to cause scripting.

So please feel free to explain me, WHY is it that when I'm winning by a 3-0 score line and I'm completely dominating my opponent -- WHY oh Why does the momentum suddenly (and significantly) shifts against me??

PS - I'm not expecting any type of logical answer from you. Thanks for Nothing again.

 

[trigglebeef]

Because the Computer is trying to get back into the match and gets it's tactics correct to keep you camped in your own half.

 

[Amateur]

Reading this is painful. Why would i want my whole team to turn to shit when the computer has a good spell, making it nigh on impossible to dig my way out. And why on earth would i want one of my players to keep a high confidence gauge, encouraging me to just try and get the ball to him as much as possible rather than playing a proper team game? Your own mentality and confidence dictates how momentum shifts in the game, you don't need the computer to control this for you. FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, seriously, do you have an exceptional fucked up IQ ??

I really do not understand you. If Leo Messi is having a brilliant game -- then by all means, I would love to give him the ball all game long. It happens.

And yes we do need the Computer to dictate this for us, because the Computer dictates all the off-the-ball movements for us. Fuck, are you just having a laugh ?! Or are you just really stupid?

And again, not one of your replies haves anything "constructive" about them. Maybe you didn't read the title of this thread?

Feel free to make your own "PES09 is perfect the way it is -- this is WHY it took the first significant dip in sales" thread. I'm sure it'll make sense to plenty of members.

 

[trigglebeef]

I know for a fact that i'm right because if i'm playing Fifa or Pro Evo and i find myself getting dominated by the computer all of a sudden, i pause the game for a few minutes, have a smoke or something to chill out and then go back to it. Almost always i manage to get some sort of control back. If this doesn't work I change my tactics slightly and that will also have an effect.

 

[trigglebeef]

Dude, seriously, do you have an exceptional fucked up IQ ??

I really do not understand you. If Leo Messi is having a brilliant game -- then by all means, I would love to give him the ball all game long. It happens.

And yes we do need the Computer to dictate this for us, because the Computer dictates all the off-the-ball movements for us. Fuck, are you just having a laugh ?! Or are you just really stupid?

I'm far from stupid mate. Off the ball movement may be dictated by the AI, but only really starts to let you down when there's a noticeable change in the oppositions tactics. Most of the time it's not even down to this though, it's down to you being tired or fatigued and trying to rush the ball forward or drinbble with one man too much, rather than relaxing and playing your natural game.

Now don't get me wrong, you have to find the right palyers and formation to try and ensure that you can play the game you want to play. From there it's all down to keeping focused and relaxed and tinkering your tactics when you need to. End of.

 

[Amateur]

I know for a fact that i'm right because if i'm playing Fifa or Pro Evo and i find myself getting dominated by the computer all of a sudden, i pause the game for a few minutes, have a smoke or something to chill out and then go back to it. Almost always i manage to get some sort of control back. If this doesn't work I change my tactics slightly and that will also have an effect.

I'm not saying that using the "strategies" doesn't works, it works and I pointed that out in the 1st post of this thread.

But even when you use those strategies -- the COM is the one who takes care of all the off-the-ball movements.

What I'm saying is simple, if one of your Individuals haves an exceptionally low confidence level -then- consequently there's a high possibility of him not timing his runs right. Which again is controlled by the COM.

This does happens in PES09, but there never seems to be any particular reason for it, it just happens randomly, depending on the whims of a computer. Which is convenient for Konami.

Anyways, I can see that you disagree with me on this matter. I personally think you still don't get it, mainly because your not willing to listen, you already have your mind made up.

But regardless -- What do you think could be better in PES09??

 

[trigglebeef]

Fair enough mate. Pro Evo's AI is far too illogical to achieve anything like this though. They should implement Fifa's button to initiate an off the ball run to help you avoid the frustration of your teammates being static all the time. Or, like Fifa, just make the AI good enough that your teammates actually move with the level of intelligence that their stats suggest they should. No confidence levels or anything required, they move like they should and it's down to you to play with enough spark and creativity to take advantage of it.

 

[ezio]

Fair enough mate. Pro Evo's AI is far too illogical to achieve anything like this though. They should implement Fifa's button to initiate an off the ball run to help you avoid the frustration of your teammates being static all the time. Or, like Fifa, just make the AI good enough that your teammates actually move with the level of intelligence that their stats suggest they should. No confidence levels or anything required, they move like they should and it's down to you to play with enough spark and creativity to take advantage of it.

I actually agree with this. I used to think PES off-the ball movement of players was great. In PES 2009 I find myself wanting to press L1 to make them make a run.

 

[Amateur]

Fair enough mate. Pro Evo's AI is far too illogical to achieve anything like this though. They should implement Fifa's button to initiate an off the ball run to help you avoid the frustration of your teammates being static all the time. Or, like Fifa, just make the AI good enough that your teammates actually move with the level of intelligence that their stats suggest they should. No confidence levels or anything required, they move like they should and it's down to you to play with enough spark and creativity to take advantage of it.

I agree about implementing an alternative to the old R2 "pass and move" play. It would be simple to implement, and yet a significant improvement. We should have the option of setting up an attacking run without having to pass the ball.

A simple solution to a very annoying problem.

As for "No confidence level or anything required".. I disagree with that, this is a Football Simulation and it needs an Unbiased Concept controlled by the COM.

The Stats would still be just as relevant.

 

[Dale C.]

Yeah, you can do that on the Wii version cant you? Like point where you want off the ball players to move, so they get into better positions?

 

[trigglebeef]

You can do it on Fifa and it's as easy as pie. Simply press L1 and the computer will intelligently make a decision on which player you are looking to make run, and make them do just that. They'll even bend their runs if it's called for, rather than making a bee-line for the by-line like they do in Pro Evo.

 

[Amateur]

On another aspect, "CapnKill" brought this point about -- Does it matter who the Captain is?

Some people say it does makes a difference, with the "Team Work" and "Mentality" Stats playing key roles.

Personally, I've never noticed anything about that. But would be a cool touch.

It would be cool if the Captain had a clear influence on the team's playing style. Maybe if you have Riquelme has captain everyone revolves around him, making for a quick passing game.

Or if you have John Terry as captain your defensive players get more organized.

Maybe with Riquelme the team haves better "Team Work" -whereas- with John Terry the team would have better Defensive qualities.

Would make an interesting detail, actually makes sense if you think about it long enough.

Maybe even, instead of everything depending Solely on The Captain. You could have a number of Key Players to define your team's style of play.

For example:

- You set the Captain, and the captain haves an influence in whatever role he plays. If he is a defender, he will be in charge of How players will work as a Defensive Unit.

- But besides the captain, you also choose your leaders in every position; Defense, Midfield, Penalty Area.

Meaning that the midfielders, the strikers, and the defenders would work differently in accordance to their leader. So it would be like having 3 leaders in your team, instead of just the captain as the sole leader of the whole team.

Like for example, having Riquelme as the leader in the Midfield, John Terry in Defense, and Leo Messi in the Forward line. And having those 3 Basic Roles revolve around their leaders.

What do you guys think about this?? Does it matter who the Captain is? If it does, how would you like this to improve??

 

[trigglebeef]

I don't think it does. I've thrashed teams on Pro Evo and then realised at the end that somebody like Armand Traore was captain. I'm not sure of whether this should matter because it's one of those details that can be easily forgotten when changing your team and stuff.

 

[ezio]

Yeah, you can do that on the Wii version cant you? Like point where you want off the ball players to move, so they get into better positions?

Yes you can and it worked very well in the Wii version.

 

[Amateur]

Yeah, you can do that on the Wii version cant you? Like point where you want off the ball players to move, so they get into better positions?

That sounds cool, but somehow "manually" controlling your players attacking runs sounds like cheating. It sounds like something that can render Tactical Stats as irrelevant.

Because what the hell, if you can manually control attacking runs.. then what's the need for Tactical Stats??

I would like to have further control over my team-mates off-the-ball movement, but manually controlling it doesn't sounds that appealing to me. It sounds arcade-like to me.

 

[jenicek68]

That sounds cool, but somehow "manually" controlling your players attacking runs sounds like cheating. It sounds like something that can render Tactical Stats as irrelevant.

Because what the hell, if you can manually control attacking runs.. then what's the need for Tactical Stats??

I would like to have further control over my team-mates off-the-ball movement, but manually controlling it doesn't sounds that appealing to me. It sounds arcade-like to me.

Did you try to play with player setting.. You can swap for fixed, manual and semi-fixed (I am not sure if I call it right), but one of them can make you switch for the other player to make a run, and then you press pass and the previous player is passing to you.. But Still, i feel, that this should not be controled by us, couse even this is stat in which some Real players takeing their advantages (I am not saying that it is working perfectly right now). I hope everyone would like to see PES like simulation of invidual players and skills, than bigger control of every player with less simulation of their invidual skills..


I also feel that most of the people will agree with me, that there is some more important staff to improve, then momentum of the match, which is working well for most of us.. Imagine that you will lose few matches.. It was already difficult on the start and it will get by each of the match worse and worse.. Then you will play better but it wont be enaugh to make difference on the grass.. (You can forget that Terry will stand up after loosing 2:0 in half time and say to his players.. We are better!! Let´s beat this Bastards! Coach will put some more offensive strategy)..


Why dont you make some list on the first page, where you will record what we agreed about? I dont thing that anyone from konami will go true every post on this forum.. If we cannot agree about something, lets vote about it.. For each point we can have 4-5 days to talk about..