Screenshots, Videos, & Much More!!! - Part 1

[Amateur]

Its plain to see that human nature strives for more every time. PES was so good back in the days of its creation because it was so new and different, we hadnt had anything like it!

Now years later, we strive for something so much more and we blame Seabass for not delivering something way over expectation, which i think is a little harsh.

However, i think PES2010 was only at fault because of how the human player couldnt control some important aspects. EG, where the pass went and how powerful it was, to which you would scream "OMG I DIDNT TELL YOU TO DO THAT!" at the crouched, ape like player bumbling around on the screen.

With PES2011 i think this main fault has been addressed. Who cares if its from FIFA, its needed! Companies copy stuff from everyone all the time. If that wasnt the case, there would only be one football game, one racing game etc etc.

Right now, i think PES2011 is going in the right direction.

You make some good points,

In my opinion, the most relevant thing you said is the bit that says: " PES was so good back in the days of its creation because it was so new and different"

That's my problem with game, yes we had the ISS games, then came PES5 and PES6 -- and these games where good at the time... these games upped the ante and showed how good a Football Simulation could be,

But the current situation is that we are stuck in the past, we still have people saying how great PES5 and PES6 still are today...

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that fan-boys need to look at the bigger picture if PES is ever going to be that "DIFFERENT" game that some people (a minority?) want it to be; at the end of the day, fan-boys are very important in the progress of PES,

And if fan-boys continue with the same conservative and narrow-minded views, then how can we expect a -- different -- PES?

As for PES 2011,

My main disappointment with the Football Genre in general, is that once you have mastered every aspect of the game; you realize that as a matter of fact it does not requires any "hardcore" skills,

The 10 Minute Concept is a concept for casual gamers, a concept that allows the user to exploit obvious things; "hardcore" PES players simply exploit all the obvious flaws... which may require some level of skill, but at the end of the day, it's just: boring, monotonous, predictable, superficial, deceptive, out of date.

I don't consider exploiting obvious flaws as something "hardcore"; in my opinion, the 10 Minute Concept was "hardcore" back when PES5 and PES6 came out, when ISS came out; but not anymore...

Now, PES 2010 has been the best PES to date (in my opinion), because from a purist's point of view, if you don't exploit the flaws that are there to be exploited, the game offers more depth than any PS2 version of PES.

You can use the L2 Strategies and the Cards and the Sliders, and you can feel the difference, this is something that is not possible with either PES5 or PES6,

However, the key problem is still the same, despite all the cards and the sliders, etc, etc, you can always break the game whenever you feel like it; in other words, it's the same old formula at its core.

AND, I almost forgot, even when you don´t break the game -- the game is still not very fun to play... it's too automatic and non-involving,

Bottom line?

I think PES 2011 will be a good 10 Minute Simulation, I have no doubts about it, it will be the best PES to date; at least in my opinion,

But once more, people will find out that PES 2011 is not that different when compared to PES6 or PES 2010; in the same way, I can play PES6 and then play FIFA 2010 -- and I don't see any significant difference in how the game is played,

We do have some small differences, but at their core, all 10 Minute Simulations are the same,

 

[Jonny16]

Whats inherent in games really is that once youve played it for long enough, you know whats going to happen, you learn how to play in a way where its easiest to win every time. Cant stop it really. All you can do is make it as fun as possible for as long as possible.

This means lots of variety and drama are needed!

 

[TheStanchion]

RE: Amateur

I'm new, but I've read a few of your posts and you talk about '10 Minute Simulation' & '20 Minute Simulation' - what do you mean by that? Thanks.

 

[Ultimate777]

That's my problem with game, yes we had the ISS games, then came PES5 and PES6 -- and these games where good at the time... these games upped the ante and showed how good a Football Simulation could be, ,

Right so we agree on that point that PES from 5-6 was a good football simulation, Let’s take this one step at a time so you don’t confused and muddled up like you did before

But the current situation is that we are stuck in the past, we still have people saying how great PES5 and PES6 still are today...

So what’s the problem if people are saying this if we agree that pes5 was a good football simulation and are clearly not happy with the current releases?

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that fan-boys need to look at the bigger picture if PES is ever going to be that "DIFFERENT" game that some people (a minority?) want it to be; at the end of the day, fan-boys are very important in the progress of PES,
And if fan-boys continue with the same conservative and narrow-minded views, then how can we expect a -- different -- PES?

Ok who are these fan boys who believe you seperate from? And what are these conservative and narrow minded views they hold please?

My main disappointment with the Football Genre in general, is that once you have mastered every aspect of the game; you realize that as a matter of fact it does not requires any "hardcore" skills,

That applies to many things besides the football and gaming. If you master anything, things become second nature without requiring as you say ‘’hardcore skills’ whatever that means.

The 10 Minute Concept is a concept for casual gamers, a concept that allows the user to exploit obvious things; "hardcore" PES players simply exploit all the obvious flaws... which may require some level of skill, but at the end of the day, it's just: boring, monotonous, predictable, superficial, deceptive, out of date

If the obvious flaws wasn’t there in the first place there wouldn’t be anything there to exploit would there and that’s what most people are complaining about and want fixed. What’s with this regurgitation of 10 minute concept? This is the basis of all football games since the genre began in computing. Is your solution to have the change it to a 45 minute concept?

Now, PES 2010 has been the best PES to date (in my opinion), because from a purist's point of view, if you don't exploit the flaws that are there to be exploited, the game offers more depth than any PS2 version of PES.

Riiight! So pes2010 to you is the best because it has flaws that are there to be exploited but if you don’t exploit it then it offers more depth??? How are you meant to do this? If the AI messes up and presents an easy route to goal then are we to just ignore it, pretend it didn’t happen? But in your seventh paragraph you say " PES players simply exploit all the obvious flaws... which may require some level of skill, but at the end of the day, it's just: boring, monotonous, predictable, superficial, deceptive, out of date.’’ So if we don’t exploit the game IT somehow reverse all those problems in terms of predictability, out of date etc and becomes in depth? Do you see the nonsensical bollox you spout that makes no sense? Is that why you conveniently pretended you didn’t see my response to your half baked post which was full of contradictions regarding the reasons why people were pissed off? According to your good self, the one reason you came up with was because the game had improved. Do you not see how retarded that sounds?

You can use the L2 Strategies and the Cards and the Sliders, and you can feel the difference, this is something that is not possible with either PES5 or PES6,

L2 strategies were possible on the PS2, so your memory is failing. As for the cards, sliders they are nothing but gimmicks and no way do they make the game play any better. It just adds to the overall rating of the player which further adds to the unrealism as they can be assigned to any player

 

[Amateur]

RE: Amateur

I'm new, but I've read a few of your posts and you talk about '10 Minute Simulation' & '20 Minute Simulation' - what do you mean by that? Thanks.

10 Minute Simulation: every Football Sim to date revolves around the 10 Minute Concept, and the 10 Minute Concept does not respects the core gameplay mechanics of real-life Football.

20 Minute Simulation: has never been tried before, it is very likely that in the future we will get to see this, because the core gameplay mechanics of real-life Football CAN be Simulated correctly; and doing it correctly would take the game to a whole new level of organic-feel and unpredictability whilst at the same time making the flaws a lot less exploitable or entirely non-exploitable.

http://www.pesgaming.com/showthread.php?t=78103

If you read what you will find through that link, it will give you a good idea of the flaws of the 10 Minute Concept and the inevitability of a 20 Minute Concept in a future, perhaps closer than we think.

It's still is a work in progress, it's not very well explained, but I think it's good enough so that you get an idea of the things that could be possible if the game was not restricted by a 10 minute deadline.

 

[TheStanchion]

Ok. I'll give those links a read. Nice one.

 

[Ultimate777]

Your 20 minute concept is moronic Amatuer and we wont be seeing it. The problems you noted in your thread regarding off the ball movement and positioning can be easily implenmented in the standard 10min game its just konami are too incompetent and too detached from what how a real football game plays. If they had ex pros in their development team those issues would be fixed along time ago. Are you still going to continue ignoring my posts and clarifying your contradictions?. Your line regarding ''veron has the brains but not the technique'' just shows you dont know much regarding real football and should refrain from discussion and suggest you stick to calling out fanboys and wenb.

 

[Amateur]

Your 20 minute concept is moronic Amatuer and we wont be seeing it. The problems you noted in your thread regarding off the ball movement and positioning can be easily implenmented in the standard 10min game its just konami are too incompetent and too detached from what how a real football game plays. If they had ex pros in their development team those issues would be fixed along time ago. Are you still going to continue ignoring my posts and clarifying your contradictions?. Your line regarding ''veron has the brains but not the technique'' just shows you dont know much regarding real football and should refrain from discussion and suggest you stick to calling out fanboys and wenb.

Roman Riquelme -- Technique

Xavi Hernandez -- Technique

Zinedine Zidane -- Technique

Roberto Baggio -- Technique

Andres Iniesta -- Technique

Ronaldinho -- Technique

Luis Figo -- Technique

Matt Le Tissier -- Technique

Sebastian Veron -- has a pretty decent technique, but does NOT compares with the rest of the players mentioned. Apparently, you have never seen Veron playing Football; he is slow and he is nothing special in terms of technique.

And FFS, is "moronic" the only word in your vocabulary? seems like a word you hear all the time...

If the game is meant to be played for a time lapse of 10 minutes, the game must be DUMB: FIFA 2010, PES 2010, PES5, and PES6 -- are-- DUMB and monotonous and deceptive video games,

Try playing any of those games for anything longer than a 10 minute match, it's BOOOORING,

If the game was meant to be played for a longer span of time, say 20 minutes (10 mins per half), the game would have more space for better player individuality and overall, better and more sophisticated gameplay mechanics.

The real-life game is 90 minutes long, look at the off-the-ball movement, look at the fundamental skills used to create space -- you cannot do that in a 10 minute game,

The game will never be super-realistic, but a 20 minute time lapse, would give the user time to actually play some proper football; I believe 20 minutes is enough to implement the basics of real-life football,

Another thing that must be clear when talking about this subject, is that, for example, the off-the-ball movement of either PES 2010 or FIFA 2010 -- if it actually required the input of the user, if it asked the user what to do instead of telling the user what to do... then it would be fun to play the game, because it involves you in the play.

On the other hand, if the off-the-ball movement is very realistic, but does not requires any input nor THINKING from the user -- the game will be somewhat soul-less because the COM is telling you what to do, the COM is dictating how the momentum flows, etc, etc.

That old automatic formula worked with PES5 and PES6, and continues to work with FIFA 2010 and PES 2010 -- but eventually, we may see a change,

I think you should expand on your idea of what is "fun" and what is not, I don't mean that in a bad way; but whatever... it will be interesting to see if either PES 2011 or FIFA 2011 surprises fans like yourself with something they don't expect,

Anyways, I am not interested in your BASELESS and narrow-minded argument. We both want the game to improve, but we have different opinions about the product in question,

Will I continue ignoring your posts? it depends, if your arguments are all this weak and offensive, then YES -- I will ignore you,

 

[Amateur]

Whats inherent in games really is that once youve played it for long enough, you know whats going to happen, you learn how to play in a way where its easiest to win every time. Cant stop it really. All you can do is make it as fun as possible for as long as possible.

This means lots of variety and drama are needed!

It depends on your definition of "fun" -- if you think 10 Minute Sims are fun, fair enough, that's your opinion,

In my opinion, I would compare it to Chess -- Chess has no flaws to exploit, and yet, no matter how much you play it, you may find little surprises over the years,

I think PES should have an element of Chess in the gameplay,

 

[Jess C]

Roman Riquelme -- Technique

Xavi Hernandez -- Technique

Zinedine Zidane -- Technique

Roberto Baggio -- Technique

Andres Iniesta -- Technique

Ronaldinho -- Technique

Luis Figo -- Technique

Matt Le Tissier -- Technique

Sebastian Veron -- has a pretty decent technique, but does NOT compares with the rest of the players mentioned.

Really? I mean... really???

Did you ever watch Seba Veron in his prime? Because wow... just... wow.

 

[Amateur]

Really? I mean... really???

Did you ever watch Seba Veron in his prime? Because wow... just... wow.

Yes I watched Veron in his prime, and when he was at Inter and at all these big clubs, his lack of speed and technique showed.

I think the most extraordinary quality of Veron was his Long Balls, at Lazio, he gave a lot of assists via long balls from deep in-field areas.

That said, I don't think Veron ever was a great player in terms of technique; when I talk about players with great technique the players that come into mind are usually Zinedine Zidane and Dennis Bergkamp -- not Veron.

A lot of one-twos, intelligent movement, perfect long balls; but I never saw Veron doing the things that Roman Riquelme did at Boca Juniors and Villarreal.

You guys take one small sentence and exaggerate it as if I had said that Veron was absolute shit, he had good technique, but doesn't compares with players who have great technique.

And one thing about technique is that you never loose your technique, Ronaldinho has lost a lot of pace; yet his technique remains intact... Veron is not in his prime anymore, why should this affect his technique in such a big way?

I continue watching Veron playing in the Argentine league, and he does not shows the same glimpses of technical ability that players like Riquelme or Ronaldinho do show even though they're past their prime,

 

[Ultimate777]

Roman Riquelme -- Technique

Xavi Hernandez -- Technique

Zinedine Zidane -- Technique

Roberto Baggio -- Technique

Andres Iniesta -- Technique

Ronaldinho -- Technique

Luis Figo -- Technique

Matt Le Tissier -- Technique

Sebastian Veron -- has a pretty decent technique, but does NOT compares with the rest of the players mentioned. Apparently, you have never seen Veron playing Football; he is slow and he is nothing special in terms of technique. ,

Lol You’ve out done yourself with that post. Well done. Are those the only players you can think of that have exceptional technique? Next you’ll be telling me paul scholes is average in techinque and slow with no brains. Let me tell you son, pace has nothing to do with technique otherwise what’s figo and zidane doing in your list? Veron is renowned for his ability of pin point long range passing accuracy and vision, one of the best alongside Beckham in that deparment. Was once considered as one of the best playmakers in the game, who dictates play and movement around the field. You don’t operate in that position of the field without having exceptional technique. Thats not to mention his free kicks and long range shots which all require TECHNIQUE. Now I have to prospose the question have YOU actually watched Veron play properly? Or are you basing your opinion on media perception with his short spell at United? Even though his talent was all there for all to see.

And Matt le tissier lol hey, your more of a joke than I thought. Please tell me you were kidding when you decided to mention him along those names?yes he had good technique but he only stood out because he was british and was a big fish in a small pond at Southampton but never ever on par with the likes of Zidane. Wonder why he didn’t play for any of the greats or on the world stage? Because he is no where close to one of the worlds best in that area

And FFS, is "moronic" the only word in your vocabulary? seems like a word you hear all the time... ,

There are many other words for your kind but I spear myself the infraction.
How about Inept, deluded, foolish, naive, incompetent

If the game is meant to be played for a time lapse of 10 minutes, the game must be DUMB: FIFA 2010, PES 2010, PES5, and PES6 -- are-- DUMB and monotonous and deceptive video games,

Really? So why were you wasting time playing those games all these years if they were dumb and deceptive from the beginning? To you 10mins=dumb, 20mins = guaranteed freedom of movent and better gameplay. All these years konami have been going wrong simply because of the limited time period of matchs. I get you now, more time, more ideas right? Lol, seriously cannot believe you

Try playing any of those games for anything longer than a 10 minute match, it's BOOOORING,

I don’t disagree with that, however on the PS2 15mins would suffice and offer a good enough time period for a challenge as there was enough variety and fun involved. 20mins is just going over the limit. Now due to the rigid restrictions the game is evermore predictable and tiresome even through a standard 10min game

If the game was meant to be played for a longer span of time, say 20 minutes (10 mins per half), the game would have more space for better player individuality and overall, better and more sophisticated gameplay mechanics.

Thats no reason to come to the conclusion that if konami fixed the computer AI and off the movement that it wouldn’t be possible in a 10 minute match

The real-life game is 90 minutes long, look at the off-the-ball movement, look at the fundamental skills used to create space -- you cannot do that in a 10 minute game,

Yeah we know but you don’t need extra 10mins of game time for these features to be placed in the game. They can happen regardless that’s what you don’t seem to get. Making the game only applicable to 20min matches only makes it drawn out and tedious regardless of how realistic you believe it will suddenly become. What about the people who want a shorter level of time who don’t have the luxury of fitting in 20 minute sessions in their schedule?

The game will never be super-realistic, but a 20 minute time lapse, would give the user time to actually play some proper football; I believe 20 minutes is enough to implement the basics of real-life football,

Again you are assuming that adding more minutes will constitutes to more realistic gameplay, because in your mind its automatically going to spread over and translate into more real life football dynamics simply because of longer time period. Thats simplistic at best. If konami actually improved the games core ability to replicate how the game is played in real life they wouldn’t need to be doing that

Another thing that must be clear when talking about this subject, is that, for example, the off-the-ball movement of either PES 2010 or FIFA 2010 -- if it actually required the input of the user, if it asked the user what to do instead of telling the user what to do... then it would be fun to play the game, because it involves you in the play.

Wow that’s what most fans have been asking for didn’t you know?

On the other hand, if the off-the-ball movement is very realistic, but does not requires any input nor THINKING from the user -- the game will be somewhat soul-less because the COM is telling you what to do, the COM is dictating how the momentum flows, etc, etc.

And that basically sums up PES2010, your favourite remember?

That old automatic formula worked with PES5 and PES6, and continues to work with FIFA 2010 and PES 2010 -- but eventually, we may see a change,

Well no konami have realised that the automatic formula is dated and have finally seen that it doesn’t work with 10 aa doesn’t allow user freedom thats why they are going to put in manual passing and take away AI assistance which is why the new slogan says Total freedom. But the difference is they are able to see that they don’t require an extra 10 mintutes added to the game to include this going off your einstein theory. If you proposed your ideas and reasoning to a games developing team they’ll be laughing their heads off

I think you should expand on your idea of what is "fun" and what is not, I don't mean that in a bad way; but whatever... it will be interesting to see if either PES 2011 or FIFA 2011 surprises fans like yourself with something they don't expect,

I already expanded on what my idea of fun is in my previous response if you cared to look, so im not going to repeat myself considering you already noted you will continue to ignore my posts like a child who says their not playing anymore because they’re losing

Anyways, I am not interested in your BASELESS and "moronic" argument. Will I continue ignoring your posts? Yes

Not surprised and don’t blame you since I don’t think you have the capacities to backtrack and explain your initial contradictions and nonsensical arguments on why you think there is a problem with these games. You go to and fro without any consistency. As a result your a poor inept poster that should refrain from discussion as you clearly cannot handle counter argument that challenges your idiotic theories and opinions.

 

[Amateur]

Lol You’ve out done yourself with that post. Well done. Are those the only players you can think of that have exceptional technique? Next you’ll be telling me paul scholes is average in techinque and slow with no brains. Let me tell you son, pace has nothing to do with technique otherwise what’s figo and zidane doing in your list? Veron is renowned for his ability of pin point long range passing accuracy and vision, one of the best alongside Beckham in that deparment. Was once considered as one of the best playmakers in the game, who dictates play and movement around the field. You don’t operate in that position of the field without having exceptional technique. Thats not to mention his free kicks and long range shots which all require TECHNIQUE. Now I have to prospose the question have YOU actually watched Veron play properly? Or are you basing your opinion on media perception with his short spell at United? Even though his talent was all there for all to see.

And Matt le tissier lol hey, your more of a joke than I thought. Please tell me you were kidding when you decided to mention him along those names?yes he had good technique but he only stood out because he was british and was a big fish in a small pond at Southampton but never ever on par with the likes of Zidane. Wonder why he didn’t play for any of the greats or on the world stage? Because he is no where close to one of the worlds best in that area


There are many other words for your kind but I spear myself the infraction.
How about Inept, deluded, foolish, naive, incompetent


Really? So why were you wasting time playing those games all these years if they were dumb and deceptive from the beginning? To you 10mins=dumb, 20mins = guaranteed freedom of movent and better gameplay. All these years konami have been going wrong simply because of the limited time period of matchs. I get you now, more time, more ideas right? Lol, seriously cannot believe you



I don’t disagree with that, however on the PS2 15mins would suffice and offer a good enough time period for a challenge as there was enough variety and fun involved. 20mins is just going over the limit. Now due to the rigid restrictions the game is evermore predictable and tiresome even through a standard 10min game


Thats no reason to come to the conclusion that if konami fixed the computer AI and off the movement that it wouldn’t be possible in a 10 minute match


Yeah we know but you don’t need extra 10mins of game time for these features to be placed in the game. They can happen regardless that’s what you don’t seem to get. Making the game only applicable to 20min matches only makes it drawn out and tedious regardless of how realistic you believe it will suddenly become. What about the people who want a shorter level of time who don’t have the luxury of fitting in 20 minute sessions in their schedule?


Again you are assuming that adding more minutes will constitutes to more realistic gameplay, because in your mind its automatically going to spread over and translate into more real life football dynamics simply because of longer time period. Thats simplistic at best. If konami actually improved the games core ability to replicate how the game is played in real life they wouldn’t need to be doing that


Wow that’s what most fans have been asking for didn’t you know?


And that basically sums up PES2010, your favourite remember?


Well no konami have realised that the automatic formula is dated and have finally seen that it doesn’t work with 10 aa doesn’t allow user freedom thats why they are going to put in manual passing and take away AI assistance which is why the new slogan says Total freedom. But the difference is they are able to see that they don’t require an extra 10 mintutes added to the game to include this going off your einstein theory. If you proposed your ideas and reasoning to a games developing team they’ll be laughing their heads off


I already expanded on what my idea of fun is in my previous response if you cared to look, so im not going to repeat myself considering you already noted you will continue to ignore my posts like a child who says their not playing anymore because they’re losing


Not surprised and don’t blame you since I don’t think you have the capacities to backtrack and explain your initial contradictions and nonsensical arguments on why you think there is a problem with these games. You go to and fro without any consistency. As a result your a poor inept poster that should refrain from discussion as you clearly cannot handle counter argument that challenges your idiotic theories and opinions.

I think you and I have a different understanding for "technique"

I loved watching Sebastian Veron, he reminded me of a Carlos Valderrama with more ambition but less elegance; extraordinary long balls, intelligent movement, one-two plays, etc, etc.

When I talk about "technique" I talk only about what the player can do with the ball, the class of the player; I do not take free-kicks nor one-twos into consideration.

When I talk about technique I am referring to Juan Roman Riquelme, when in his prime with Boca Juniors and Villarreal, could hold-on to the ball even if he had three players on him; and could do it consistently...

I just don't see and have never seen, Sebastian Veron showing the same glimpses of technical ability that players like Zinedine Zidane and Dennis Bergkamp showed on a consistent basis.

As for PES,

It's obvious that we both want the game to improve, we simply have different opinions about the product in question... it's really that simple.

I do not think there is a problem with these games, the FACT is, that there is a problem with these games -- how do you feel about the problem?

That's your opinion.

You like the game, whereas on the other hand I do not enjoy this type of gameplay as much as I used to. How does that makes me incompetent or anything of the sort?

By the way, did you mentioned the word "losing"? do you actually think that I give a fuck about winning or loosing some argument about a fucking video game?

Worrying about winning or loosing is a waste of time, meaningless as far as this argument of yours goes, I would only care about winning if I was being payed to win.

Fact of the matter is that these games are unplayable outside the 10 minute time-frame. This is a clear indication of how dumb the game is, doesn't has enough substance for 20 minute matches.

PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are both soul-less as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, I feel like PES5 and PES6 had more soul in them, but where poorer games in terms of depth; and overall, I would rather play the soul-less PES 2010 before the soul-full PES6.


----------------------------------------------------
"Again you are assuming that adding more minutes will constitutes to more realistic gameplay, because in your mind its automatically going to spread over and translate into more real life football dynamics simply because of longer time period. Thats simplistic at best. If konami actually improved the games core ability to replicate how the game is played in real life they wouldn’t need to be doing that"
------------------------------------------------------


I never said that, those are your words, not mine; apparently your fan-boy mentality does not let you communicate, you are already judging before you even start to understand my opinion.

Let me tell you, you are as far off the mark as you possibly can be.

As for 10 minutes vs 20 minutes,

That's easily fixable, if a 20 Minute Sim ever happens; we should always have an option for playing 10 minute games, like for example, two different game modes: one custom-made for 10 minute matches, the other for 20 minute matches.

--------------------------------------------------
The 10 minute mode: same old automatic "pin-ball" formula

The 20 minute mode: new formula for a realistic game of Football.
---------------------------------------------------

What you want -- it is easily possible within a 10 minute deadline, I know what you want, as a matter of fact, everyone knows what you want.

On the other hand, what I want, is not possible in a 10 minute game, 20 minutes does not equals more ideas, more ideas will not change anything, it's about changing the concept from the ground up.

Bottom Line?

Different opinions... although fact remains that these games are too dumb for 20 minute matches.

But whatever,

Continue throwing childish insults, I don't care, there's nothing I can do about it from where I'm standing; you should take a look at yourself before calling anyone a moron or incompetent.

Don't forget, PES is a video game, there's no need for stupid insults,

 

[franchise]

lets all stop arguing and just hope that konami deliver us a great game this year

 

[R9NALD9]

there is some improvements here and there, but these videos CLEARLY showed that they did not work on this for 18 months...the improvements are minor and there is a lot to be worried about...keepers, animations doesn't look quite right, gameplay looks too much like pes 2010 etc.

If this is the game they are going to put out, it's fifa again for me this year...

and to those waiting for the demo, stop being naive...the gameplay movies tells the story. Once the demo hits all the naive fans on this site will say it's only a 75% build...happens every year, only to end up in total dissapointment once the final game hits.

 

[The_whisper]

Dude, you are damn right about the whole concept. Its such a shame people get stuck on trivia like veron`s tech. Well done. Great post btw.

I think you and I have a different understanding for "technique"

I loved watching Sebastian Veron, he reminded me of a Carlos Valderrama with more ambition but less elegance; extraordinary long balls, intelligent movement, one-two plays, etc, etc.

When I talk about "technique" I talk only about what the player can do with the ball, the class of the player; I do not take free-kicks nor one-twos into consideration.

When I talk about technique I am referring to Juan Roman Riquelme, when in his prime with Boca Juniors and Villarreal, could hold-on to the ball even if he had three players on him; and could do it consistently...

I just don't see and have never seen, Sebastian Veron showing the same glimpses of technical ability that players like Zinedine Zidane and Dennis Bergkamp showed on a consistent basis.

As for PES,

It's obvious that we both want the game to improve, we simply have different opinions about the product in question... it's really that simple.

I do not think there is a problem with these games, the FACT is, that there is a problem with these games -- how do you feel about the problem?

That's your opinion.

You like the game, whereas on the other hand I do not enjoy this type of gameplay as much as I used to. How does that makes me incompetent or anything of the sort?

By the way, did you mentioned the word "losing"? do you actually think that I give a fuck about winning or loosing some argument about a fucking video game?

Worrying about winning or loosing is a waste of time, meaningless as far as this argument of yours goes, I would only care about winning if I was being payed to win.

Fact of the matter is that these games are unplayable outside the 10 minute time-frame. This is a clear indication of how dumb the game is, doesn't has enough substance for 20 minute matches.

PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are both soul-less as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, I feel like PES5 and PES6 had more soul in them, but where poorer games in terms of depth; and overall, I would rather play the soul-less PES 2010 before the soul-full PES6.


----------------------------------------------------
"Again you are assuming that adding more minutes will constitutes to more realistic gameplay, because in your mind its automatically going to spread over and translate into more real life football dynamics simply because of longer time period. Thats simplistic at best. If konami actually improved the games core ability to replicate how the game is played in real life they wouldn’t need to be doing that"
------------------------------------------------------


I never said that, those are your words, not mine; apparently your fan-boy mentality does not let you communicate, you are already judging before you even start to understand my opinion.

Let me tell you, you are as far off the mark as you possibly can be.

As for 10 minutes vs 20 minutes,

That's easily fixable, if a 20 Minute Sim ever happens; we should always have an option for playing 10 minute games, like for example, two different game modes: one custom-made for 10 minute matches, the other for 20 minute matches.

--------------------------------------------------
The 10 minute mode: same old automatic "pin-ball" formula

The 20 minute mode: new formula for a realistic game of Football.
---------------------------------------------------

What you want -- it is easily possible within a 10 minute deadline, I know what you want, as a matter of fact, everyone knows what you want.

On the other hand, what I want, is not possible in a 10 minute game, 20 minutes does not equals more ideas, more ideas will not change anything, it's about changing the concept from the ground up.

Bottom Line?

Different opinions... although fact remains that these games are too dumb for 20 minute matches.

But whatever,

Continue throwing childish insults, I don't care, there's nothing I can do about it from where I'm standing; you should take a look at yourself before calling anyone a moron or incompetent.

Don't forget, PES is a video game, there's no need for stupid insults,

 

[ionosphere]

New video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEnGHljtO74

The animations don't look better to me.

New member here and familiar story for me, played pretty much all the football games since the eighties. I own all the PES games on PS2 up till PS3 launch, really excited for the release of PES2008 back in 2007 when I got my PS3. I knew that there was a preliminary PES on xbxox 360 and hoped that would give the dev team a chance to get the PES 2008 full release on both platforms spot on, but oh dear, what a mistake buying 2008.

I used to buy PES on PS2 without reading reviews or demos. I just loved it and the subtle changes. Was so excited to get the PS3/360 version and knowing of the 360 tester version the year before only to find the pace and challenge PES 2008 ruined. Since then I've stayed away from buying PES2009,2010.

I tried FIFA but apart from great animations its not for me either. I've yet to play a football game that has impressed me on the 360/PS3.

I'd like the animations of FIFA and the pace, challenge, unique spontaneous moments of the old PES games. FIFA is a poor substitute.

They really need to start over before its too late. They seem stuck in a yearly cycle of crap. Same old hype this year and their acknowledgment of poor transition to new platforms.

 

[Ultimate777]

I think you and I have a different understanding for "technique"

I loved watching Sebastian Veron, he reminded me of a Carlos Valderrama with more ambition but less elegance; extraordinary long balls, intelligent movement, one-two plays, etc, etc.

When I talk about "technique" I talk only about what the player can do with the ball, the class of the player; I do not take free-kicks nor one-twos into consideration.

When I talk about technique I am referring to Juan Roman Riquelme, when in his prime with Boca Juniors and Villarreal, could hold-on to the ball even if he had three players on him; and could do it consistently...

I just don't see and have never seen, Sebastian Veron showing the same glimpses of technical ability that players like Zinedine Zidane and Dennis Bergkamp showed on a consistent basis.,

We definitely do have different understanding for ‘technique’ You obviously have the idea that technique revolves around pace and holding up the ball. My impression of technique is skill in controlling and passing the ball. players who can inspire the attacking style of the team and do what they please with the ball. Veron is one of the best passers in the game, that should tell you he has above average technique. Let me ask you is David Beckham average in technique aswell?

As for PES,

It's obvious that we both want the game to improve, we simply have different opinions about the product in question... it's really that simple.

I do not think there is a problem with these games, the FACT is, that there is a problem with these games -- how do you feel about the problem?

That's your opinion.

You like the game, whereas on the other hand I do not enjoy this type of gameplay as much as I used to. How does that makes me incompetent or anything of the sort? ,

I don’t like the game , so you’ve obviously havnt been following properly. Thats what baffled me, you claimed 10 was the best in the series and your explanation for why it was the best game was redundant. I think the problem with PES is the animations, basic passing physics, shooting physics and ai are broken and requires to be overhauled. At the moment they are have just recycled the game with new gimmicks every year with reprehensible minor tweaking and idiotic options removals. My point is that the basic control mechanics of FIFA and PES in this generation have not altered greatly(so far) from the previous generation of consoles since its transition. But here is the thing, in my opinion PES5's set up is still as good as, if not better, than 10 and many would agree with me rather then believing that 10 is the best of the series which is your opinion, but dont dress it up as fact,. All PES5 controls would need are some slight tweaks and additions married with the ideology of the design of the game(PES5) itself. It isn't simply a case of adding another 20 minutes as you so crudely put it. Its my opinion that the positive attributes that make PES5 as highly thought of as a form of grounding when developing the franchise. The game is never going to represent every tiny detail based off real life football so you have to be realistic and use the resources at your disposal and take into account the limitations of other factors which have to be condensed and catered towards certain settings

By the way, did you mentioned the word "losing"? do you actually think that I give a fuck about winning or loosing some argument about a fucking video game? ,

I was using an analogy to a child that was losing and refuses to play because it cannot take it. Nothing to imply that this is about winning or losing an argument as there is nothing to gain. You take one word and take it out of context. Well done. I I was using that in conjunction to my sentence that you had chosen to ignore responses which challenged your concept

of the matter is that these games are unplayable outside the 10 minute time-frame. This is a clear indication of how dumb the game is, doesn't has enough substance for 20 minute matches. ,

Who wants to be playing 20 minutes matches in the first place? The game is not meant to be catered to play for 20minutes. It’s similar to someone putting the game on 45 minutes and then complaining that its boring.. no shit! What you fail to understand is that anything longer than 15 minutes will have the opposite effect and destroy the fundamentals and fun along with the whole purpose of a football game. If the game play was based around anything longer then 15 mintutes it will remove the pick up and play aspect of these genres. Every online match would be a chore, people who want time convient games would not be interested because they would be limited to the option of a playing a lesser ‘ping pong’ 10min addition as you present. So konami will never be implementing such a flawed retarded concept. As I said if you proposed your ideas to a games development team they would laugh their heads off . Changing the concept of the game would probably alienate a lot more people than it would attract and wouldn’t fit konami’s marketing policy as they would have to move in a completely new direction aiming towards hardcore simulation prefenced fans who have no life.

The series is simply in need of a overhaul in regards to gamplay that means changing the fundamentals like player movement, passing and shooting with more organic animation and off the ball while adding to the polish and attention to detail that earlier PS2 series which use to possess depth, controlled solid interface and players who were robust along with variety on the pitch. Your idea that this can only be implemented if they game time is increased is simply stupid. Your under the clouded impression that simply adding off the ball movement( one extra feature) is suddenly going to make the game worthwhile and offer more realism to justifying 40 minutes of play. You call those versions dumb yet in another sentence you’ll admit those versions provided a good football simulation. Make your mind up

PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are both soul-less as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, I feel like PES5 and PES6 had more soul in them, but where poorer games in terms of depth; and overall, I would rather play the soul-less PES 2010 before the soul-full PES6. ,

Thats your opinion, and your view that its souless is based on the abstract rather than fact and against the majority of reviews of those earlier versions.

I never said that, those are your words, not mine; apparently your fan-boy mentality does not let you communicate, you are already judging before you even start to understand my opinion. ,

Define fan boy mentality please? You have a tendency to pigeonhole everyone that sees through your 20 min concept ideology as fan boys. Are you not a fan yourself? If not, what you are doing here?

Let me reiterate, the concept is unpractical because adding more minutes doesn’t automatically translate into a better video game. You must think that it will take up time for intelligent ai and off the movement to be demonstrated in a 10 min game when thats not true at all. Konami have shown their ability in the past to execute indivuality modality in players skills and states in a the base, template and time frame that they are already using, something which fifa still lacks

As for 10 minutes vs 20 minutes,

That's easily fixable, if a 20 Minute Sim ever happens; we should always have an option for playing 10 minute games, like for example, two different game modes: one custom-made for 10 minute matches, the other for 20 minute matches.

--------------------------------------------------
The 10 minute mode: same old automatic "pin-ball" formula

The 20 minute mode: new formula for a realistic game of Football. ,

Do you really think they are going to implement such an option, it would be a waste of harddrive space . What you’re basically suggesting is for konami making two entirely different games within one version that caters to different time settings and concepts. If the 10 minute pinball formula, as you say is an option then the gamers who want to play 10mins wouldnt have the luxury of enjoying all the new aspects? They would not be happy playing a lesser game if there is an option of playing a better game in another mode. So it will not work

What you want -- it is easily possible within a 10 minute deadline, I know what you want, as a matter of fact, everyone knows what you want.

On the other hand, what I want, is not possible in a 10 minute game, 20 minutes does not equals more ideas, more ideas will not change anything, it's about changing the concept from the ground up. ,

What I want is practical and realistic and will make the game better. What you want is a game that exactly resembles real life football at the cost of removing the pick up and play fun factor which defines the series.

Bottom Line?

Different opinions... although fact remains that these games are too dumb for 20 minute matches.

But whatever,

Continue throwing childish insults, I don't care, there's nothing I can do about it from where I'm standing; you should take a look at yourself before calling anyone a moron or incompetent.

Don't forget, PES is a video game, there's no need for stupid insults,

As for insults is that why you called me a cunt because I disagreed with your post? Stupid hypocrite.

I think that’s what you actually fail to grasp, that PES is a videogame and that they have a duty to stay true to what a video game represents. Nobody wants a totally accurate 90 minute simulation as it’ll be boring and the fun element would be taken out because no one but yourself would have the patience to play long drawn games out just to derive a little better off the ball movement. It needs to be condensed to a more convenient less time consuming format. Have you even taken to account how your concept would even effect online mode?

What people want is konami to bring back the offensive/defensive balance, the utter thrill of scoring a goal, the sheer unpredictablity in disappointment of an injury time loss, the individuality of each player, the necessity of tactics, and pure joy of winning when you had no business winning... the true essence of the game that brought people to fall in love enjoy the series in the first place

And how is it a fact these games are dumb? I will tell you again that these games are not catered towards 20 min matches thats why you’ll find them boring and in your words ‘dumb’. That’s your problem and its why I'm calling you up on it, because you think you have the all the answers above all these ‘fanboys’ that you place yourself apart from and present your inane theory as the missing ideology that’s going to fix all the flaws when in truth it’s not practical and is fundamentally flawed concept that wont work and wont ever wont happen.

 

[Jonny16]

For everyone banging on about technique...

There are many forms of technique and should not be placed in one stat.

Beckham has amazing technique in crossing. Xavi has amazing technique in passing. Ronaldinho for skills. Rooney for volleying the ball whilst shooting.

If anything, they shouldnt really have a technique stat!

 

[Amateur]

We definitely do have different understanding for ‘technique’ You obviously have the idea that technique revolves around pace and holding up the ball. My impression of technique is skill in controlling and passing the ball. players who can inspire the attacking style of the team and do what they please with the ball. Veron is one of the best passers in the game, that should tell you he has above average technique. Let me ask you is David Beckham average in technique aswell?



I don’t like the game , so you’ve obviously havnt been following properly. Thats what baffled me, you claimed 10 was the best in the series and your explanation for why it was the best game was redundant. I think the problem with PES is the animations, basic passing physics, shooting physics and ai are broken and requires to be overhauled. At the moment they are have just recycled the game with new gimmicks every year with reprehensible minor tweaking and idiotic options removals. My point is that the basic control mechanics of FIFA and PES in this generation have not altered greatly(so far) from the previous generation of consoles since its transition. But here is the thing, in my opinion PES5's set up is still as good as, if not better, than 10 and many would agree with me rather then believing that 10 is the best of the series which is your opinion, but dont dress it up as fact,. All PES5 controls would need are some slight tweaks and additions married with the ideology of the design of the game(PES5) itself. It isn't simply a case of adding another 20 minutes as you so crudely put it. Its my opinion that the positive attributes that make PES5 as highly thought of as a form of grounding when developing the franchise. The game is never going to represent every tiny detail based off real life football so you have to be realistic and use the resources at your disposal and take into account the limitations of other factors which have to be condensed and catered towards certain settings



I was using an analogy to a child that was losing and refuses to play because it cannot take it. Nothing to imply that this is about winning or losing an argument as there is nothing to gain. You take one word and take it out of context. Well done. I I was using that in conjunction to my sentence that you had chosen to ignore responses which challenged your concept




Who wants to be playing 20 minutes matches in the first place? The game is not meant to be catered to play for 20minutes. It’s similar to someone putting the game on 45 minutes and then complaining that its boring.. no shit! What you fail to understand is that anything longer than 15 minutes will have the opposite effect and destroy the fundamentals and fun along with the whole purpose of a football game. If the game play was based around anything longer then 15 mintutes it will remove the pick up and play aspect of these genres. Every online match would be a chore, people who want time convient games would not be interested because they would be limited to the option of a playing a lesser ‘ping pong’ 10min addition as you present. So konami will never be implementing such a flawed retarded concept. As I said if you proposed your ideas to a games development team they would laugh their heads off . Changing the concept of the game would probably alienate a lot more people than it would attract and wouldn’t fit konami’s marketing policy as they would have to move in a completely new direction aiming towards hardcore simulation prefenced fans who have no life.

The series is simply in need of a overhaul in regards to gamplay that means changing the fundamentals like player movement, passing and shooting with more organic animation and off the ball while adding to the polish and attention to detail that earlier PS2 series which use to possess depth, controlled solid interface and players who were robust along with variety on the pitch. Your idea that this can only be implemented if they game time is increased is simply stupid. Your under the clouded impression that simply adding off the ball movement( one extra feature) is suddenly going to make the game worthwhile and offer more realism to justifying 40 minutes of play. You call those versions dumb yet in another sentence you’ll admit those versions provided a good football simulation. Make your mind up



Thats your opinion, and your view that its souless is based on the abstract rather than fact and against the majority of reviews of those earlier versions.



Define fan boy mentality please? You have a tendency to pigeonhole everyone that sees through your 20 min concept ideology as fan boys. Are you not a fan yourself? If not, what you are doing here?

Let me reiterate, the concept is unpractical because adding more minutes doesn’t automatically translate into a better video game. You must think that it will take up time for intelligent ai and off the movement to be demonstrated in a 10 min game when thats not true at all. Konami have shown their ability in the past to execute indivuality modality in players skills and states in a the base, template and time frame that they are already using, something which fifa still lacks




Do you really think they are going to implement such an option, it would be a waste of harddrive space . What you’re basically suggesting is for konami making two entirely different games within one version that caters to different time settings and concepts. If the 10 minute pinball formula, as you say is an option then the gamers who want to play 10mins wouldnt have the luxury of enjoying all the new aspects? They would not be happy playing a lesser game if there is an option of playing a better game in another mode. So it will not work



What I want is practical and realistic and will make the game better. What you want is a game that exactly resembles real life football at the cost of removing the pick up and play fun factor which defines the series.



As for insults is that why you called me a cunt because I disagreed with your post? Stupid hypocrite.

I think that’s what you actually fail to grasp, that PES is a videogame and that they have a duty to stay true to what a video game represents. Nobody wants a totally accurate 90 minute simulation as it’ll be boring and the fun element would be taken out because no one but yourself would have the patience to play long drawn games out just to derive a little better off the ball movement. It needs to be condensed to a more convenient less time consuming format. Have you even taken to account how your concept would even effect online mode?

What people want is konami to bring back the offensive/defensive balance, the utter thrill of scoring a goal, the sheer unpredictablity in disappointment of an injury time loss, the individuality of each player, the necessity of tactics, and pure joy of winning when you had no business winning... the true essence of the game that brought people to fall in love enjoy the series in the first place

And how is it a fact these games are dumb? I will tell you again that these games are not catered towards 20 min matches thats why you’ll find them boring and in your words ‘dumb’. That’s your problem and its why I'm calling you up on it, because you think you have the all the answers above all these ‘fanboys’ that you place yourself apart from and present your inane theory as the missing ideology that’s going to fix all the flaws when in truth it’s not practical and is fundamentally flawed concept that wont work and wont ever wont happen.

Ok I think I can work with this,

Your definition for "technique" is very general and broad, whereas on the other hand, my definition for "technique" is very specific.

I will be honest when I say that I did not read everything you said in your last post; I simply cannot bother reading through it. You do make some valid points about certain things but then you go on and ruin it with your pointless narrow-minded insults.

Yes, there are a lot of things wrong with PES 2010 -- everyone can see what the flaws are because the flaws are very obvious, and no, I do not think PES 2010 is in FACT the best version to date; like you said, it is my opinion.

I do think PES 2010 has a lot to learn from PES5 and PES6, they need to inject some life and soul into the game; at the same time, I can do things with PES 2010 that would be impossible with any PS2 version.

It may be hard for you to believe, but I have a very good idea of how good a 10 Minute Sim can be; I did played both PES5 and PES6 for about three years straight, and eventually, I became bored of the "pin-ball" formula and basically my expectations and ideals of how a Football Simulation can and should play -- evolved -- as a result.

I can enjoy playing PES5 and PES6 from time to time, I still have both games and can choose to play them whenever I want; that said, I do not want to be playing PES5 with High Def Graphics in year 2012,

One thing about the 10 minute time-frame is, how can I make this perfectly clear to you; the lack of TIME... 10 minutes are not enough, 10 minutes does not allows the user to THINK,

If THINKING became a driving force in how PES is played, it would be impossible to play 10 minute matches; human beings are too smart and clever,

Which is why, 10 Minute Simulations will never give the user the initiative of thinking, the power of using your "footballing brain" is not possible in a 10 minute simulation,

Konami came up with the Cards and Sliders, so that the "footballing brain" of the user can make more of a difference; you can use the L2 Strategies, and change both the formation of your team and the approach of your team on-the-fly,

The L2 Strategies are a feature in both PES5 and PES6, but without the Cards and Sliders it is not as useful nor as realistic,

Anyways,

The key problem with the Cards and Sliders is that, it doesn't makes the game fun to play; PES 2010 does feels soul-less despite the introduction of the Cards and Sliders.

Because the Cards and Sliders do not really touch on the outdated core gameplay mechanics, it just gives you a bit more control over how the COM will behave without the ball, etc, etc.

You simply hold the L2 button + tap any of the 4 buttons used for passing and shooting the ball -- and this will produce a little reaction from the COM.

This was used in PES5 and PES6, and it works better now because of the Sliders and the Cards; but the key problem is that you can play PES5 and then play PES 2010 and you will see that the games are basically identical, with some slight, and in my opinion, irrelevant differences.

Now you mentioned the word "fan-boy",

I think you are something of a fan-boy, all your arguments revolve around an outdated concept, when people do not agree with your views you insult them, and you have a hard time understanding the points of others; in this case, my points.

For one thing, you are debating with me, but you clearly do not understand my opinion... because you do not want to understand my opinion,

------------------------------------------------------
"Let me reiterate, the concept is unpractical because adding more minutes doesn’t automatically translate into a better video game."
------------------------------------------------------

You should know the difference between the word "fan-boy" and personal insults such as "moronic",

I judged you with the same kindness you initially judged me,

-------------------------------------------------------
"What I want is practical and realistic and will make the game better. What you want is a game that exactly resembles real life football at the cost of removing the pick up and play fun factor which defines the series."
--------------------------------------------------------

Again showing the traits of a fan-boy,

You still think the word "fun" means the same thing for everyone, you are somehow incapable of acknowledging the HUGE difference between 20 minutes and 90 minutes; and you still have no idea of what you're talking about.

As for your opinion,

I do NOT respect your opinion, a lot of people share that same opinion; I think that type of thinking is narrow-minded and regressive.

I don't have a problem with you thinking that PES5 is all that you say it is; I have a problem with you thinking that you are right when you are clearly blinded by your intent,

---------------------------------------------------
"All PES5 controls would need are some slight tweaks and additions married with the ideology of the design of the game(PES5) itself. It isn't simply a case of adding another 20 minutes as you so crudely put it."
---------------------------------------------------

Most of you guys would be happy if Konami simply developed PES5 with High Def Graphics.

As a fan of the series myself,

I can see that a lot of things cannot be properly-implemented into a 10 minute game, and in my opinion, the original ambition of PES will never truly Evolve if the game is based on a 10 Minute Concept.

I guess we have a different definition for the word "evolution",