The disappointing fact about PES 2008.

[Amateur]

What can be said about PES08 that hasn't already been said?? Is it the same old PES? No, definitely not. Is it a next generation game?? It doesn't feels like it. Is it bad?? Of course not, that would be too harsh. So why so disappointing??!!


Well, personally I wasn't greatly disappointed because I had read all the critics about PES08. So I was expecting a disappointing game, and yeah it haves some major issues, but it still is the best football game out there -however- the MOST disappointing fact is that I still see the exact same SKILLS that PES had 4 years ago!!

Pass Accuracy
Pass Speed
Dribble Accuracy
Dribble Speed
Attack
Defense
Shot Accuracy
Shot Technique


I mean, How generic is that!! So much talk about the PS3, so much unquestionable potential - and still both EA Sports and Konami can only manage to make touched up versions of past games!! - That's what makes PES dissapointing to my eyes.


For one I was expecting the old - Shot Accuracy and Shot Technique to be updated. I mean, what about Long Range Shot Accuracy?? What covers that?? In my opinion is way too generic to just have Shot Accuracy and Shooting Technique - There are plenty of shooting techniques; Chip Shot, Instep drive, Placed Shot, etc, etc.. Up till date - PES still has no SKILL to cover shoots such as Chip Shots or Long Range Shots.


And what about Dribbling!! - just Dribble Accuracy and Dribble Speed to cover for Dribbling!! Too generic. What about players who almost never perform a step-over?? Players such as Kaka, Riquelme, Raul, Pirlo, etc, etc.. There must be a difference in the dribbling styles of the players - in order to establish a difference between tricksters such as Cristiano Ronaldo or Luis Figo -and- less showy players like Kaka and Riquelme. For example, Kaka should not perform a step-over by tapping the L1 Button - he should perform another trick, but definitely not a step-over.


More of the same with passing - Pass Accuracy and Pass Speed. I mean, this is football!! any decent Football fan knows that "Pass and Movement" are fundamental to the beautiful game. I still don't see the difference between players with great Tactical Awareness - that is great technical movement such as Juan Roman Riquelme -and- players who don't have or don't rely on good tactical awareness such as Ronaldinho.


That is a fundamental fact of Football - and it is something that PES currently lacks. That Tactical Awareness Skill is what differentiates players such as Riquelme, Zidane, Valderrama, or Pirlo -from- players such as Henry, Ronaldinho, Joaquin, Robben, or Shauwn Wright Phillips.


I think some simple skill additions would solve that problem, for example adding a few New Skills such as;

Short Ground Pass,
Short Lobbed Pass,
Long Ground Pass,
Long Lobbed Pass,
Through Ball Technique,
and maybe a Passing Technique.


Those are only 6 Skills, and I'm sure they would make a HUGE difference to the game play of the game - for one, players would be further differentiated. For example David Beckham has a great Long Lobbed Pass Skill, but (as with most English players) his ground passes are not that accurate or incisive. On the other hand, the former Colombian Playmaker Carlos Valderrama was not The best at Lobbed Passes -but- his Groung Passes, be it short or long, were flawless. Valderrama's Through Pass Technique?? El Pibe could perform passes you didn't thought possible.


With only 6 new skills, Konami could manage to establish a new-found difference between players such as David Beckham (or Juninho Pernambucanon) and Juan Roman Riquelme (or Carlos Valderrama, Andrea Pirlo, etc, ect). The game play and reality of the game would be further improved with only 6 New Skills - for a fact there would be no more playmaking with Beckham. David Beckham would be David Beckham - who is a Side Midfielder. And Riquelme, Guti, Diego, etc, etc.. - would be Playmakers.


Another Fundamental Skill that PES currently lacks is - Work Rate; such skill could determine how much running a player does Off-The-Ball, and by off-the-ball I mean automatic - performed by the computer. For example, a player such as Gennaro Gattuso would have a very high Work Rate Skill -while on the other hand- Carlos Valderrama would have a low Work Rate skill.


Konami needs to identify this fundamental abilities that differentiate players because those ''fundamental skills'' - are what makes Football a team game; Zidane creates and distributes the ball - Makelele does the off-the-ball work in order to win the ball back - Vieira is the all-around great player - Thierry Henry scores the goals - Thuram defends the goal poasts. And viceversa - Zidane cannot play Defensive Midfielder because he doesn't haves the skill required to do so effectively - Makelele cannot play as Playmaker - Vieira could pretty much play any position in the midfield - etc,etc..


Different positions require different skills and abilities - I shouldn't be able to control a match 'a-lo-Riquelme' with a player like David Beckham. And I shouldn't be able to tackle just as effectively with Riquelme or Maldini.


That is the main problem with the current PES -too generical in too many fundamental aspects of Football- and knowing how good PES08 actually is, I know for a fact that PES can be 3 times better. Imagine players with different types of movements Off-The-Ball, because it is a well known fact that while some players rely on their pace (Thierry Henry for example) -others- rely on their positioning and passing (Juan Roman Riquelme). It would be great if we could see such fundamental skills ON THE PITCH.


How can that be achieved?? I think it's possible by adding New Skills. Fundamental Skills like the ones mentioned before (Passing Skills) and some other New Skills such as;

Defensive Skills - Marking, tackling, Sliding Tackle, Covering, Pressuring, and Defensive Composure.

Awareness Skills - Tactical Awareness, Defensive Awareness, and Attacking Awareness.

Shooting Skills - Instep Drive Shot, Inside Foot Shot, Outside Foot Shot, Chip Shot, Shot Technique (old), Shot Power (old), and Long Range Shooting (currently a Special Ability).

Dribbling Skills - Step-Over, Pull-Back, Shielding, Flick Ball Up, Roulette, Nutmeg, Lane Change, and a few more.

Others - Finishing, Strength, Mentality (old), and Consistency.


So bottom line is - that Next Generation Football games NEED to cover the fundamental aspects of football. Football is not like Basketball, Baseball, or Tennis.. Football is a team game, it's played with 11 players who cover different positions - Konami needs to cover the different skills required for each position, and I mean Skills not Special Abilities.

And the most disappointing fact about PES 2008?? The fact that they took the time to make new features such as "Diving" -but- somehow forgot to improve the fundamental aspects of the beautiful game.

 

[Stormrider]

Wow this must be the longest post I've seen here. Anyways, there's more than enough stats, dunno why you would need more especially when everything you mention pes already has.

Chips shots: technique and 1vs1 scoring determines success rate
Long range shots: middle shooting special ability
Dribbling: tactical dribble
Tactical awareness: attack/defense abilities, positioning/covering/playmaker special abilities

Most of those new skills you mentioned are already in the game man. Seriously are you sure you're not playing fifa thinking you're playing pes or something?

 

[Amateur]

Wow this must be the longest post I've seen here. Anyways, there's more than enough stats, dunno why you would need more especially when everything you mention pes already has.

Chips shots: technique and 1vs1 scoring determines success rate
Long range shots: middle shooting special ability
Dribbling: tactical dribble
Tactical awareness: attack/defense abilities, positioning/covering/playmaker special abilities

Most of those new skills you mentioned are already in the game man. Seriously are you sure you're not playing fifa thinking you're playing pes or something?

Dude your missing the point - Middle shooting special ability?? Here's a question for you stormrider - If I have a player with a Shot Accuracy of let's say 80, How high is his Middle Shooting Special Ability?? 80?? That doesn't adds up to me.

Take for example Romario - this player must've had like a 95 Shot Accuracy -but- Romario wasn't that great from outside the box. So my point is - if Romario haves a 95 Shot Accuracy, how high is his Middle Shooting Ability?? And also if Romario doesn't haves Middle Shooting as a Special Ability - then what determines Romario's ability to shot from outside the box??

Take Matt Le Tissier as another example - his shooting accuracy from near the box situations was like a 90. But his Long Range Shots had a 99 accuracy rate. If Le Tissier haves a Shot Accuracy of 90 - How is it possible for him to have a Middle Shooting ability of 99??


It's the same for Defensive and Playmaking qualities - If Maldini and Nesta both have a defense skill of 90, and both have Sliding Tackles as Special Abilities - They have the same exact Tackling technique - and that my friend is too generic in my opinion because everyone knows that Maldini should have a 99 in Sliding Tackles. And yet how is that possible if the Sliding Tackle Technique (Special Ability) depends on the 'Defense' Skill??

A single 'Defense' Skill cannot determine - Tackling, Marking, Covering, etc, etc.. Marking is an individual technique, Tackling is another technique, and the same goes for Covering. Am I to think that Maldini - who haves a higher 'Defense' Skill rating than Makelele, covers better than Makelele?? Maldini doesn't makes a better Defensive Midfielder than Makelele - and yet in PES 2007 I could play Maldini as Defensive Midfielder, and Maldini actually made a better job - This is a flaw.

Fernando Hierro was a better Defender than Makelele - yet he didn't made a better Defensive Midfielder than Makelele. That fundamental difference is not available neither in PES 2007 or PES 2008. This is were Skills like; Defensive Awareness and Tactical Awareness should take place - Fernando Hierro should have a better Defensive Awareness than Makelele -while on the other hand- Makelele should have a better Tactical Awareness than Hierro.

PES's system of Skills and Special Abilities cannot establish that fundamental difference between Fernando Hierro and Makelele. It does not covers Fundamental SKILLS properly, and this is why in my Master League Career I usually see unrealistc things such as Ronaldo as the player with most assists, etc, etc..


Again - the skills I mentioned are NOT in the game. Special Abilities and Skills are two different things, and that's the main point I was trying to make. For example, Romario was a great shooter from inside the box situations -while on the other hand- there was no one quite like Matt Le Tissier from outside the box situations - Is it possible to establish this difference in PES 2008?? No because There's no way I can say that Romario haves a 95 Shot Accuracy and a 88 Long Range Shot Accuracy -while- Matt Le Tissier haves an 88 Shot Accuracy and a 99 Long Range Shot Accuracy.

And again - David Beckham didn't had Playmaking as a Special Ability in PES 2007, and yet I could make 3 assists per game with Beckham because his Pass Accuracy was excellent - Beckham could effectively play as a Playmaker. Why?? Because the passing skills of PES 2007 were (and still are) too generical; Passing Accuracy and Passing Speed - There's no Through Pass technique, there's no Off-The-Ball Movement technique, and as a consequence we have David Beckhams making 2 to 3 assists per game, and not from Crosses or Free-Kicks, but from defense splitting ground passes.

That thing about "David Beckham performing defense splitting ground passes, consistently" - would not be possible if we had Skills such as; Short Ground Pass, Short Lobbed Pass, Long Ground Pass, Long Lobbed Pass, and Through Ball Technique.

By the way - next time you disrespect me, at least read the damn post.. because it's quite clear you didn't get the point. No, most of the New Skills I mentioned are definitely NOT in the game. But whatever, thanks for your reply.

 

[zeemeister]

Good post. I see where you are coming from. But the stats system Seabass uses are excellent, you can get a player to play as his real life counterpart by delicately balancing the stats. However there are shortcomings in that a player like Gattuso or Makelele dont try attacking runs into the box ala pes2008
There have always been hidden stats in the japanese and korean teams, which shows they are aware of it.

 

[Stormrider]

Dude this is just a game. You don't wanna do a stepover with Kaka then don't. Do the 360 or shot feint just like he does in real life. But the option is there for people who feel like he should do step overs. Yes distance shooting is not like in real life but the middle shoot star increases your chances. Fifa has a long shooting stat but it just kind of works out the same as pes. Higher ratings has higher chance to keep the shot down, same with middle shoot. I feel since this ability came into play (in pes 5 I believe) its been doing a great job of separating finishers and distance shooters.

I don't think any current hardware is capable of making every single player behave exactly like his real life counterpart and I don't think a game ever will achieve this but pes comes pretty dam close. I know pes could be a lot more realistic but remember its just a game. You can always turn on your tv and watch a match if you wanna see Kaka act just like Kaka

 

[Amateur]

Good post. I see where you are coming from. But the stats system Seabass uses are excellent, you can get a player to play as his real life counterpart by delicately balancing the stats. However there are shortcomings in that a player like Gattuso or Makelele dont try attacking runs into the box ala pes2008
There have always been hidden stats in the japanese and korean teams, which shows they are aware of it.

No doubt, that Skills and Special Abilities system is still good, 2 years ago it was genius!! -but- In my opinion that's not the system Konami should be using for New Gen Games.

Why?? Because it's too generical, it's still better than FIFA's.. but too generical. I think Konami should establish a greater difference between players like Riquelme, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo, Van Nistelrooy, David Beckham, etc, etc.. - They need to identify the fundamental skills for each position; Side Midfielder, Playmaker, Defensive Midfielder, Striker, Center Back, etc, etc.. In my opinion, once they manage to cover those fundamental skills that PES 2008 doesn't covers properly - once they do add those fundamental skills.. well I think we will get to see a better PES.


And apart from the Skills - What happened to PES's Game Play??!! It feels more like FIFA than PES! - The most FIFA-Like feature is the fact that PACE is given too much importance, there's no way of defending against players with good pace, and it feels like the game was made for Attacking-Direct Football -rather than- Tactical Football. Everything depends on pace! The dribbling is horrible, the defenders are horribly positioned, the air passes are perfect - and I just feel like I'm playing EPL Football.

Another very dissapointing aspect of PES 2008 is the fact that - The more I play it, the less I like it. As a matter of fact I have been playing PES 2008 for only 2 weeks now - and I've just decided to play PES 2007 until next year's version.. I hope PES 2009 haves a better Game Play.

 

[Amateur]

Dude this is just a game. You don't wanna do a stepover with Kaka then don't. Do the 360 or shot feint just like he does in real life. But the option is there for people who feel like he should do step overs. Yes distance shooting is not like in real life but the middle shoot star increases your chances. Fifa has a long shooting stat but it just kind of works out the same as pes. Higher ratings has higher chance to keep the shot down, same with middle shoot. I feel since this ability came into play (in pes 5 I believe) its been doing a great job of separating finishers and distance shooters.

I don't think any current hardware is capable of making every single player behave exactly like his real life counterpart and I don't think a game ever will achieve this but pes comes pretty dam close. I know pes could be a lot more realistic but remember its just a game. You can always turn on your tv and watch a match if you wanna see Kaka act just like Kaka

In that we agree - Nothing will ever accomplish a replica of Real Football. And yes PES 2007 came really close, it felt like Football - I cannot say the same for PES 2008, though.

But dude, don't you think it would be better if players such as Kaka or Riquelme performed different tricks by tapping the L1 Button - instead of performing a Step-Over (wich is what Cristiano Ronaldo is likely to do) they could perform some other trick; Lane Change, Stepping on the Ball, or another one.

And again - This is the PS3 -not- the PS2. We paid 500+ for the PS3, and for one - I am not satisfied with either FIFA08 or PES08; I didn''t bought a PS3 just too have the same exact stats system as Old Gen Games. This are supposed to be New Gen Games, and yet most people state that "PES 2008 still isn't a New Gen Game". Why?? Simple, the damn game still uses the same damn stats system as 3 or 4 years ago!! That's old generation dude!! that is not what we paid for.

 

[Stormrider]

It would be neat to have more skills of course but I prefer to leave the L1 the way it is and let us players have the option whether to use it or not. Kaka is definitely capable of performing it irl but he just doesn't choose to so I dunno y he shouldn't be able to perform it in a video game.

Welcome to the sad life of a sports game series. Great games like Shadow of the Colussus take years to develop whereas sports games like Fifa and Pes only has 1 year or less to develop. There's not much you can do in that time. As neat as a broader ability system sounds, poor implementation would probably bury the pes series for good. It would require a lot of testing to add all these stuff and make sure it works. If Konami had 4 years to work on only 1 pes game then it would almost definitely be amazing but that'll never happen
So we're just stuck paying for annual roster updates.

 

[mufcsean]

General - The disappointing fact about PES 2008?

Is it that people like you still keep moaning about it after all this time?

 

[Amateur]

It would be neat to have more skills of course but I prefer to leave the L1 the way it is and let us players have the option whether to use it or not. Kaka is definitely capable of performing it irl but he just doesn't choose to so I dunno y he shouldn't be able to perform it in a video game.

Welcome to the sad life of a sports game series. Great games like Shadow of the Colussus take years to develop whereas sports games like Fifa and Pes only has 1 year or less to develop. There's not much you can do in that time. As neat as a broader ability system sounds, poor implementation would probably bury the pes series for good. It would require a lot of testing to add all these stuff and make sure it works. If Konami had 4 years to work on only 1 pes game then it would almost definitely be amazing but that'll never happen
So we're just stuck paying for annual roster updates.

Yeah the 1 year deadline is an issue, and personally I think Konami should take 2 years to make their next game - I think that could burry FIFA, that is if Konami spends their time wisely.


And yes, no doubt Kaka obviously can perform a Step-Over, and yet he rarely does it.. I just think it would be better if Kaka and players alike performed some other tricks by tapping the L1 Button. But this really isn't an issue.


The biggest issue with PES 2008 is the fact that PES 2007 and PES 9 were actually better games - Instead of improving the Game Play, they go and screw the Game Play up. Instead of making the Editing Mode better, they go and screw it up. They practically changed what made PES a great Football game in the first place - a change is not bad, but unfortunately Konami made a change for the worst; PES 2008 is not Football - it is boring, it is too direct, it haves an exaggerated enfasis on Pace, and it's just plain bad.


I'm not asking for a Replica of Real Football -But- I would like to see the fundamental aspects of Football present on PES; Off-The-Ball Movement -instead- of the feeling that I'm playing by myself.. the resting 10 players on the pitch should move along with the player I'm controlling - And how well they move through space should be determined by Skills such as Tactical Awareness, Attacking Awareness, and Defensive Awareness. How much running a player does Off-The-Ball should be determined by a Skill like 'Work Rate', etc, etc, etc.. And I would also like to see more Passing Skills because Passing Accuracy and Passing Speed does not cut it, it's too generic.


In short - I'd like to see some good Passing and Movement on the next PES or FIFA. Until then I'll just keep playing PES 2007.

 

[Amateur]

General - The disappointing fact about PES 2008?

Is it that people like you still keep moaning about it after all this time?

What's that supposed to mean?? Do you want me not to say how disappointed I am - well that's not going to happen because PES 2008 is plain bad. What else can I say about PES 2008?? How good it is?? That I like the crappy Game Play?? That I'm satisfied with the Online Play?? The game generates more moaning than praise - get used to it.

And by the way, there's a difference between just moaning -and- moaning while also talking about things that could make PES a better game.

 

[Stormrider]

I'm sorry but you keep mentioning things that are already in the game. I guess I'll fill you in. Work rate is stamina + mentality. Players with high mentality that are not under your control make more runs when the score is tied, if your team is losing, or when their stamina bar hits 50%. When a player with low mentality like under 70, they pretty much stop running once they're tired or if you're losing. Try a low player then try Gerrard and see for yourself.

Attacking awareness is determined by attack rating, positioning and df positioning (lines) ability. Notice how someone with very high attack rating like RVN is always in the right place at the right time? You should be able to make out what covers defensive awareness by now. The outcome of this system is not 100% accurate but its pretty dam close.

The passing special ability helps through passes. There's also the playmaker ability. Technique also helps 1 touch passing as well as a bunch of other things. Pes is actually more complex than you think. Go into edit and check out Japan's team. Go view the page after the special abilities and you'll see a bunch more. I dunno why it is hidden from all the other teams or maybe Konami only implemented it for Japan but it's pretty cool.

As for that whole Beckham thing he can make some pretty ground passes. I forget which game but it was near the end of last season he made this beauty of a long ground pass to RVN. Youtube it or something. Sure you can play him as a playmaker but that doesn't mean he'll be as good as a natural playmaker like Riquelme who has far superior passing, playmaking, ball control, and able to make space for himself with high dribble.

You know you should be happy a game like pes exists (not necessarily 2008). The way the players move, how they react, sometimes its so realistic its scary. When people who have never played the game before come over and believe you're watching a match when you're actually playing pes. That says a lot about the level of realism. Fifa can't even come close to this. Every player feels, moves, and looks just like a robot. If I remember correctly there's not even an agility rating (too lazy to boot the game up to check). I can do marseille roulettes with Vidic all day long and he'll never lose control of the ball. Good luck pulling that off consistently in pes.

Wow I didn't actually intend to write this much. I'm enjoying this conversation so bring some more topics tomorrow if you can

 

[Amateur]

I'm sorry but you keep mentioning things that are already in the game. I guess I'll fill you in. Work rate is stamina + mentality. Players with high mentality that are not under your control make more runs when the score is tied, if your team is losing, or when their stamina bar hits 50%. When a player with low mentality like under 70, they pretty much stop running once they're tired or if you're losing. Try a low player then try Gerrard and see for yourself.

Attacking awareness is determined by attack rating, positioning and df positioning (lines) ability. Notice how someone with very high attack rating like RVN is always in the right place at the right time? You should be able to make out what covers defensive awareness by now. The outcome of this system is not 100% accurate but its pretty dam close.

The passing special ability helps through passes. There's also the playmaker ability. Technique also helps 1 touch passing as well as a bunch of other things. Pes is actually more complex than you think. Go into edit and check out Japan's team. Go view the page after the special abilities and you'll see a bunch more. I dunno why it is hidden from all the other teams or maybe Konami only implemented it for Japan but it's pretty cool.

As for that whole Beckham thing he can make some pretty ground passes. I forget which game but it was near the end of last season he made this beauty of a long ground pass to RVN. Youtube it or something. Sure you can play him as a playmaker but that doesn't mean he'll be as good as a natural playmaker like Riquelme who has far superior passing, playmaking, ball control, and able to make space for himself with high dribble.

You know you should be happy a game like pes exists (not necessarily 2008). The way the players move, how they react, sometimes its so realistic its scary. When people who have never played the game before come over and believe you're watching a match when you're actually playing pes. That says a lot about the level of realism. Fifa can't even come close to this. Every player feels, moves, and looks just like a robot. If I remember correctly there's not even an agility rating (too lazy to boot the game up to check). I can do marseille roulettes with Vidic all day long and he'll never lose control of the ball. Good luck pulling that off consistently in pes.

Wow I didn't actually intend to write this much. I'm enjoying this conversation so bring some more topics tomorrow if you can

I'm glad you're enjoying this conversation, really.. I like to argue about things like this. PES is more complex than most people think - that's why most people can't get enough of it. But the issue remains - Almost no changes for some 4 years now, and I can't help but think that Konami were well aware of the great game they had in PES, and they just started working too carelessly on it. For a fact PES 2008 doesn't feels like Classic PES, it doesn't feels like I'm playing Football.. decent graphics but it feels like it lost what made PES a great game in the first place.


And yes - the old Passing Accuracy and Passing Speed Skills are helped by the Special Abilities; First Touch Pass, Playmaking, Passing, etc, etc.. But the Old Gen Issue remains - If 2 players have a 95 Passing Accuracy and both have Playmaking as a Special Ability - Both players have the same exact Playmaking ability (too generic). PES has never given me the option of having a Player with a Passing Accuracy of 90 and a Through Ball Technique of 99 - This is were the OLD system of Skills and Special Abilities fails. This is why I believe that skills such as 'Through Ball Technique' should be introduced into any Next Gen Football game - it's a Fundamental Skill.


By the way, I don't think each and every Technique should be made a Skill. However I believe that any skill that haves anything to do with Passing and Movement should be made an Individual Skill.


Because in my opinion Pass Accuracy and Through Pass Technique are two clearly different skills. For example many players have great Passing Accuracy, but most of them lack that Skill (or talent) to see and execute Passes that most people don't even think off - passes that go through 2 or 3 opponents, passes that go through incredibly small spaces, the kind of passes that made Carlos Valderrama a great player. Sometimes Vision and Creativity are much more important than Passing Accuracy. And in the current PES there's no way of accurately determining a Player's Playmaking ability (or style).


Anyways, the worst aspect of PES it's probably the Defence - way too generic, there's no way a single 'Defence' Skill can determine a player's ability to Tackle, Slide Tackle, Cover, etc, etc.. Just like Passing - Marking is an individual Skill, Tackling is another Skill, and the same goes for the rest of them. The 'Defence' Skill should be divided into many different skills, for example;

Defensive Awareness - Determines a player's ability to position himself in defensive (without possession) situations.

Tackling, Sliding Tackle, Reaction, and Defensive Composure.

Covering - Should be determined by the Defensive Awareness and Tactical Awareness Skills.


About the Stamina + Mentality ~ Work Rate. That's true -but- how many players have great Stamina and Work Rate -with- very poor Mentality?? Again - Too generic, Is it possible to have a player with great Work Rate and a poor Mentality in PES?? No, differences like that are what sets aside Gattuso from the rest of the many many players who have great Work Rate.


And then again - Is it too much to ask that aside from Mentality and Stamina, we also have Work Rate. Work Rate could be a Special Ability you know, that could work - Mentality and Stamina as Skills, and Work Rate as a Special Ability. This way it would be possible to have players with poor Mentality but great Work Rate -or- poor Stamina but great Work Rate (although this would result with the player getting tired early on).


It's the same issue with Attacking. If 2 strikers have an Attack Skill of 90, a Shot Accuracy of 90, and a Shooting Technique of 90 -and- both have; Positioning, Reaction, Scoring, 1-1 Scoring, and Post Player as Special Abilities - as a consequence we have the same exact player, but with different names and faces.. that's too generic, and in my opinion further differences must be established between players.


And as for "FIFA players moving like robots, etc, etc.." - That's the main thing that distinguished PES from FIFA - It's game play, the players movement were spot on. But unfortunately the first thing you notice about PES 2008 is the fact that the players move and dribble like complete retards!! they move like a bunch of robots! It's like Konami replaced Skill with Pace - the Dribbling Accuracy is absolutely irrevelant to the game, and haves little to no impact on the game play -on the other hand- A player with a Top Speed of 95 and a Dribble Accuracy of 50 is likely to run his way through the pitch and score a goal. Fast players literally run circles around defenders - and honestly it looks very ridiculous, and becomes boring very quickly.


Anyways, PES 2007 and the rest of the past versions are great Football games - there's no point in arguing that -but- they can still improve a lot. And judging by PES 2008, it seems that Konami has spent the last few years doing only touch ups -like the ''Diving" feature- and not really thinking outside the box.

Do you have any suggestions/ideas about some possible New Skills or anything that could make PES a better Football game??

 

[RAMAXWY]

AMATEUR, i think u are completely right and if some members would read what u said carefully they would understand that u are not saying the game is bad but that u are just saying what most real football fans ( espacially those who play football in real life )already think but what you have finnaly put into words so well
most reviews about the PES series tell u that the players mimic their real life counterparts perfectly but i would say that's wrong because they only covered a few playing styles ( like ronaldo)and that's why (and be honest here guys) we edit most of our players so that in with the available statts we can make the players behave like they really do.

But the players that u've mentioned they are really difficult to create with the available statts and i could also add CESC FABREGAS and MARADONNA to that list, they are players that are almost impossible to create correctly with the given statts.

before someone esle says it again, and yes i know it's a game and yes i know it's the best football game todate ,that's why we play it but adding these statts would make it perfect because the difference in abbilites would make the possibilities endless.
not every player relies on speed to beat his defender ( riquelme,cesc and juninho for example) some read ur body language and can even trap the ball and ur beaten ( which statt coveres that).
ROMARIO was another great example ( one of the greatest striker that ever played the game) he didn't have the speed and power like
BATTISTUTA, but his finishing was great he rarely took long distant shots but could read the goalies positioning like no other and usually just placed the shots righ next to him.

so AMATEUR i know what u mean and that's why u could go on and on because explaining this to someone who doesn't know what u mean takes time and alot of words but u are right and thank u for taking the time for putting into words what me and my mates have been saying for a long time now.

so personally i think u can call urself PROFESSIONAL now u've earned it.

 

[Amateur]

AMATEUR, i think u are completely right and if some members would read what u said carefully they would understand that u are not saying the game is bad but that u are just saying what most real football fans ( espacially those who play football in real life )already think but what you have finnaly put into words so well
most reviews about the PES series tell u that the players mimic their real life counterparts perfectly but i would say that's wrong because they only covered a few playing styles ( like ronaldo)and that's why (and be honest here guys) we edit most of our players so that in with the available statts we can make the players behave like they really do.

But the players that u've mentioned they are really difficult to create with the available statts and i could also add CESC FABREGAS and MARADONNA to that list, they are players that are almost impossible to create correctly with the given statts.

before someone esle says it again, and yes i know it's a game and yes i know it's the best football game todate ,that's why we play it but adding these statts would make it perfect because the difference in abbilites would make the possibilities endless.
not every player relies on speed to beat his defender ( riquelme,cesc and juninho for example) some read ur body language and can even trap the ball and ur beaten ( which statt coveres that).
ROMARIO was another great example ( one of the greatest striker that ever played the game) he didn't have the speed and power like
BATTISTUTA, but his finishing was great he rarely took long distant shots but could read the goalies positioning like no other and usually just placed the shots righ next to him.

so AMATEUR i know what u mean and that's why u could go on and on because explaining this to someone who doesn't know what u mean takes time and alot of words but u are right and thank u for taking the time for putting into words what me and my mates have been saying for a long time now.

so personally i think u can call urself PROFESSIONAL now u've earned it.

Than you!! 100% agree with you. It's nice to see that some Football Fans are aware of the Fundamental Skills that current Football games lack. I hope we can come up with some good ideas - eventually.


By the way, that fact you mentioned about "Real Football Fans, specially those who play Football in Real Life" - In my opinion that's very important because Football players, be it Professional players or Amateur players such as myself - know some aspects of the game that most gamers aren't aware off. For example, FIFA fans love the fact that they can practically dribble a complete team by the effective use of the Right Analog Stick (Dribbling Tricks Control) - they love the fantasy of FIFA. Me on the other hand, I find FIFA (and PES 2008) extremely boring - Football isn't about dribbling your way through entire teams, pace, and long balls. Football is more than anything about Passing and Movement -Off The Ball Movement- Not Movement created by a dribbling trick (or Right Analog Stick).


Anyways, I used to be able to create pretty good Maradonas, but of course PES lacks some Skills that Maradona had, Skills such as;

Short Sprint Speed - This could determine a player's explosiveness when decelerating and accelerating.

A Skill such as Short Sprint Speed (or it could be Explosiveness) is something that PES currently lacks - Top Speed and Acceleration doesn't covers for it. And any Maradona fan knows, that Maradona wasn't the fastest of players - but he could dribble just about anyone by going slowly and suddenly exploding into space. Maradona's 1st and 2nd gear was unbelievable, and of course it had a lot to do with Maradona's low center of gravity.

Why doesn't Top Speed and Acceleration covers for Short Sprint Speed/Explosiveness?? - Because, take for example Thierry Henry, in PES 2008 Henry haves unbelievable Pace and Acceleration; consequently we have a very explosive Henry -and- Yet the real life Thierry Henry is not explosive, Henry NEEDS space in order to develop his greater attribute - wich is His Top Speed, Henry has something of an unusual 6th gear - once he haves the space and once he's already running at high speed there's no catching him -but- he's not exlosive and he needs plenty of space to do it.

This is why Thierry Henry is kind of struggling in the Spanish La Liga - La Liga doesn't allows Henry the open wide spaces he formerly had in the English Premier League. And unlike Maradona - Thierry Henry doesn't possess that explosiveness required for dribbling in tightly marked spaces. This Fundamental ability is not properly covered in PES 2008 because there's no way I can say that Thierry Henry haves a Top Speed of 99, an Acceleration of 88, and a Short Sprint Spedd (or Explosiveness) of 80. Therefore the Top Speed and Acceleration Skills are too generic.


And also - Skills like; Short Ground Pass, Short Lobbed Pass, Long Ground Pass, Long lobbed Pass, Through Ball Technique, Attacking Awareness, and Tactical Awareness can only help players like Maradona, Cesc Fabregas, Steven Gerrard, etc, etc..

By the way the New Passing Skills I already mentioned, I think those New Skills could make a huge difference to the Game Play of the game. Mainly because it's not like - For example if your using David Beckham, a player renowned for very accurate Long Lobbed Passes but not so accurate Ground Passes - the intention is not to oblige players into only performing Lobbed Passes with Beckham, that's not the idea. The intention is to establish a Fundamental aspect of Football - Most Football players play to their strenghts, and most of them hide their defects - For example Beckham will almost always chose a Cross over an incisive Ground Pass. And yet Beckham can give the occasional defence splitting Long Ground Pass, because Beckham does haves good Long Ground Passing Accuracy.

But by doing it this way -instead of using the old Passing Accuracy and Passing Speed Skills- a fundamental difference would be established. For a fact Possession is mostly based on Short Ground Passing -instead- of Long Ground Passing as Long passes are more likely to be intercepted, and thus possession would be lost. So David Beckham would have good Long Lobbed Pass and Long Ground Pass Accuracy Skills -but- he would have average Short Ground Passing Skill - and as a consequence Beckham could very well provide the occasional defense splitting Long Ground Pass, but he won't be able of controlling a game 'a-lo-Riquelme' - That is of dominating and dictating play by the use of Safe Short Ground Passing and great Tactical Movement.


Another Skill I'd like to see is Shielding - a Skill that could determine a player's ability to hold onto the ball in tightly marked spaces -or- in other words a player's ability to play in tightly marked spaces. Who can forget Zinedine Zidane's Shielding ability, it was practically impossible to steal the ball from him cleanly. And the same goes for players like Carlos Valderrama and Juan Roman Riquelme.

A Skill such as Shielding would also fix annoying flaws such as - Ronaldinho consistently stealing the ball away from very skillful players. I mean, I could very well play Ronaldinho as a Center Back.


A player that is practically impossible to make in PES is Carlos Valderrama - Because PES lacks Fundamental Skills such as Work Rate, Through Ball technique, Shielding, Tactical Awareness, etc, etc.. It's very difficult to create a player who barely runs -but- still haves the ability to always be on the right place to make that final pass. I think Skills such as Tactical Awareness would make a huge difference.


For example with skills such as Work Rate, Tactical Awareness, Defensive Awareness, Attacking Awareness, and Shielding - we could probably make players mimic their real life counterparts effectively. For example;

A player such as Pavel Nedved - Would have a great Work Rate Skill, great Tactical Awareness, great Stamina, great Mentality, great Agression, and a decent Attacking Awareness. As a consequence we'd probably get a player very similar to the Real Pavel Nedved - a tireless worker making run after run through space.

A player such as Zinedine Zidane - Would have a low Work Rate, normal Agression, high Mentality, great Tactical Awareness, good Attacking Awareness, and great Shielding. As a consequence we'd get a player who is economical with his movement (because of his low Work Rate), never executing excessive running -but- always well positioned to receive a pass (because of his good Tactical Ability), and of course very skillful at protecting the ball from opponents (because of the Shielding ability).

Bottom line is - that if chosen correctly, New Skills could give the game a much more Genuine Feeling, more possibilities would be available, and consequently PES would be a better game.

 

[MatTheCat]

Snipped/Unread

I got to the point where you were about to break into a diatribe about the 'lack' of stats and stopped reading there.

 

[skyline19]

Now that is a rant and a half...

 

[MatTheCat]

Now that is a rant and a half...

....about absolutely nothing....

There are a million issues on the 'to do list' much more important than Amteur's 'stats'. Get the game engine correct first, then fix the online, then bring graphics up to seamless next gen capabilities, then bring back options that existed in previous PES games but have been omitted from PES08, and then introduce yet more stupid animal heads into the edit mode. Only then should Konami start worrying about damn stats (of which there are about 40-50 visible to us, and around 150 'hidden' stats that the gamer does not get to see or edit.

 

[fick]

I got to the point where you were about to break into a diatribe about the 'lack' of stats and stopped reading there.

A wise move. By the time i'd finished reading the site had logged me out...

 

[RAMAXWY]

Than you!! 100% agree with you. It's nice to see that some Football Fans are aware of the Fundamental Skills that current Football games lack. I hope we can come up with some good ideas - eventually.


By the way, that fact you mentioned about "Real Football Fans, specially those who play Football in Real Life" - In my opinion that's very important because Football players, be it Professional players or Amateur players such as myself - know some aspects of the game that most gamers aren't aware off. For example, FIFA fans love the fact that they can practically dribble a complete team by the effective use of the Right Analog Stick (Dribbling Tricks Control) - they love the fantasy of FIFA. Me on the other hand, I find FIFA (and PES 2008) extremely boring - Football isn't about dribbling your way through entire teams, pace, and long balls. Football is more than anything about Passing and Movement -Off The Ball Movement- Not Movement created by a dribbling trick (or Right Analog Stick).


Anyways, I used to be able to create pretty good Maradonas, but of course PES lacks some Skills that Maradona had, Skills such as;

Short Sprint Speed - This could determine a player's explosiveness when decelerating and accelerating.

A Skill such as Short Sprint Speed (or it could be Explosiveness) is something that PES currently lacks - Top Speed and Acceleration doesn't covers for it. And any Maradona fan knows, that Maradona wasn't the fastest of players - but he could dribble just about anyone by going slowly and suddenly exploding into space. Maradona's 1st and 2nd gear was unbelievable, and of course it had a lot to do with Maradona's low center of gravity.

Why doesn't Top Speed and Acceleration covers for Short Sprint Speed/Explosiveness?? - Because, take for example Thierry Henry, in PES 2008 Henry haves unbelievable Pace and Acceleration; consequently we have a very explosive Henry -and- Yet the real life Thierry Henry is not explosive, Henry NEEDS space in order to develop his greater attribute - wich is His Top Speed, Henry has something of an unusual 6th gear - once he haves the space and once he's already running at high speed there's no catching him -but- he's not exlosive and he needs plenty of space to do it.

This is why Thierry Henry is kind of struggling in the Spanish La Liga - La Liga doesn't allows Henry the open wide spaces he formerly had in the English England League. And unlike Maradona - Thierry Henry doesn't possess that explosiveness required for dribbling in tightly marked spaces. This Fundamental ability is not properly covered in PES 2008 because there's no way I can say that Thierry Henry haves a Top Speed of 99, an Acceleration of 88, and a Short Sprint Spedd (or Explosiveness) of 80. Therefore the Top Speed and Acceleration Skills are too generic.


And also - Skills like; Short Ground Pass, Short Lobbed Pass, Long Ground Pass, Long lobbed Pass, Through Ball Technique, Attacking Awareness, and Tactical Awareness can only help players like Maradona, Cesc Fabregas, Steven Gerrard, etc, etc..

By the way the New Passing Skills I already mentioned, I think those New Skills could make a huge difference to the Game Play of the game. Mainly because it's not like - For example if your using David Beckham, a player renowned for very accurate Long Lobbed Passes but not so accurate Ground Passes - the intention is not to oblige players into only performing Lobbed Passes with Beckham, that's not the idea. The intention is to establish a Fundamental aspect of Football - Most Football players play to their strenghts, and most of them hide their defects - For example Beckham will almost always chose a Cross over an incisive Ground Pass. And yet Beckham can give the occasional defence splitting Long Ground Pass, because Beckham does haves good Long Ground Passing Accuracy.

But by doing it this way -instead of using the old Passing Accuracy and Passing Speed Skills- a fundamental difference would be established. For a fact Possession is mostly based on Short Ground Passing -instead- of Long Ground Passing as Long passes are more likely to be intercepted, and thus possession would be lost. So David Beckham would have good Long Lobbed Pass and Long Ground Pass Accuracy Skills -but- he would have average Short Ground Passing Skill - and as a consequence Beckham could very well provide the occasional defense splitting Long Ground Pass, but he won't be able of controlling a game 'a-lo-Riquelme' - That is of dominating and dictating play by the use of Safe Short Ground Passing and great Tactical Movement.


Another Skill I'd like to see is Shielding - a Skill that could determine a player's ability to hold onto the ball in tightly marked spaces -or- in other words a player's ability to play in tightly marked spaces. Who can forget Zinedine Zidane's Shielding ability, it was practically impossible to steal the ball from him cleanly. And the same goes for players like Carlos Valderrama and Juan Roman Riquelme.

A Skill such as Shielding would also fix annoying flaws such as - Ronaldinho consistently stealing the ball away from very skillful players. I mean, I could very well play Ronaldinho as a Center Back.


A player that is practically impossible to make in PES is Carlos Valderrama - Because PES lacks Fundamental Skills such as Work Rate, Through Ball technique, Shielding, Tactical Awareness, etc, etc.. It's very difficult to create a player who barely runs -but- still haves the ability to always be on the right place to make that final pass. I think Skills such as Tactical Awareness would make a huge difference.


For example with skills such as Work Rate, Tactical Awareness, Defensive Awareness, Attacking Awareness, and Shielding - we could probably make players mimic their real life counterparts effectively. For example;

A player such as Pavel Nedved - Would have a great Work Rate Skill, great Tactical Awareness, great Stamina, great Mentality, great Agression, and a decent Attacking Awareness. As a consequence we'd probably get a player very similar to the Real Pavel Nedved - a tireless worker making run after run through space.

A player such as Zinedine Zidane - Would have a low Work Rate, normal Agression, high Mentality, great Tactical Awareness, good Attacking Awareness, and great Shielding. As a consequence we'd get a player who is economical with his movement (because of his low Work Rate), never executing excessive running -but- always well positioned to receive a pass (because of his good Tactical Ability), and of course very skillful at protecting the ball from opponents (because of the Shielding ability).

Bottom line is - that if chosen correctly, New Skills could give the game a much more Genuine Feeling, more possibilities would be available, and consequently PES would be a better game.

yes,football isn't just dribbling and pace but opening ur opponents defence up in a variety of ways but in PES 2008 U DO GET THE FEELING THAT THAT'S THE KEY TO DO IT. UR RIGHT ABOUT HENRY ALSO , he struggles in SPAIN because he lacks the explosiveness players like maradonna have and that's also why he struggles in the FRENCH team also because he is used in the center (CF)and doesn't get the space he needs to reach his top speed.
That's also why he isn't a CF in the game.

i do agrre with the fact that atleast in PES the difference between players is lightyears ahead compared to FIFA, BUT STILL THIS IS THE PS3 we were all looking forward to with it's endless possibilities so if we already had these statts and playing styles on the PS2 we can atleast ask for more on the PS3

THE long pass i also think is an issue yes,because in real life u have players that can give u a beautifull lofted pass but still with the amount off power that makes it easy to controle and then u have the players that can give u a long pass with almost or now loft at all but with much more power that makes it alot more difficult to controle.
the long pass accuracy and the long pass speed statts just doesn't cover all the possibilities.
i also feel that long passes can be done by every player when ur in ur own half and that the statts start to matter when ur in the opponnents half and try to give a cross or take a corner or free kick and that shouldn't be the case.

through passes are too easy if u ask me ( that should be a special skill)because how many players can actually give a deadly through pass in real life? not that much because it's an art to give the ball enough pace to get through the small spaces or defence but with enough spin on it to make it slow down just about were u expect ur winger or striker to be at that time and when done perfectly u can break down the best defence.

Shielding isn't really possible to do in the game u are right about that but that will be tricky don't u think because in real life it's already difficult to perform and that's what makes the zidane's, valderama's and riquelme's so great to watch so if they could pull that off in a game i would be really impressed.
but atleast what we asking for are things that will make the game increadable because when i read some off the wishlists for PES 2009 i sometimes do wonder what's wrong with some people.

when all these abbilities are implemented well you would have to be carefull no mather who you play against because then it wouldn't be the overall statts from a team that would only make them dangerous but the players and all the possibilities the cpu or ur human opponnent has to play against u. the eleven players that are on the field and the tactics used will be that more importent then just the pace and the dribbling.
because this isn't covered yet most people select barca and inter or machester united online.
but when we get all these abbilities u won't be afraid to use VILLAREAL OR GETAFE AND SEVILLA BECAUSE IF U USED ALL THE PLAYERS CAPACITIES U WOULD BE ABLE TO BEAT ANY TEAM.

then u will really feel like a coach ( like WENGER OR THE VILLAREAL COACH ,I FORGOT HIS NAME)and start the season without a team of stars and still challenge for the chapionship by knowing ur players and using them well.