I kind of read it, in and out of a coma.
What you're saying is stupid. When people, like myself use the John Terry comparison we are referring to one defender simply tackling around 2 or 3 times in a game. Maybe less. Obviously you multiply the amount of tackles figure so that every defender would probably tackle around once or twice in a game. Guess what, it varies AMATEUR. Sometimes Chelsea will play a team that they don't have to tackle much and therefore there will be less executed tackles. Other times, Chelsea will play a side where they are under more pressure and are forced to make more tackles.
Are you following so far? Right I'l continue.
The tackling button is there, and guess what again, it does work! Dada!
But you have to very precise, once you make the tackle, like IRL, you have that second where you are committing yourself to a challenge. In the PES game, I don't want to commit myself to any challenges, because on the demo, there are players like Nani and Giggs and Rooney from the first demo (who are good), and Bale, Ribbery, Robben, Eto etc from the second demo (who are class) at precision dribbling.
So it's pretty much like real life Amateur. If you expect to take control of Rangers and constantly tackle Ribbery or Robben then you're obviously not an advocate of simulation football. Skrtel tried to man mark and tackle Bale yesterday and look where that got him, a red card and getting raped down the wing all day. Now you may be better at timing tackles than me and have better reflexes than me, so go on knock yourself out and hit that tackle button all day. It can be done.
But I can't do it, and neither do I want to do it. My defensive unit way of playing is now sound. I rely mainly on positioning players and cutting down space. IF NECESSARY, and only if I have no other option I'll make a standing challenge or go to ground. What you have to understand is that the game is very contextual. If Robben has time and space because you've messed up your defensive line (and this may be from your strikers to your midfield) and he's tearing at you, then don't expect to be able to JUST make a standing tackle against him. However, if you have ushered them into tight spaces and restricted space and surround them with players leaving less options, then your chances of pulling off a tackle or much higher. After my last (albeit long game play post), where I feel completely comfortable with the game now, I went onto draw one and lose two last night.
I don't think that this is game that can be very easily mastered such is the brilliance of the AI. It is the closest thing to a real life being played out, AND THAT's WHAT I WANT. I don't want sweet spots, I want to see different moves, different goals and I want to be dissected if I lose concentration for a second.
I don't have a problem with the game because A) I know I can now keep a clean sheet if I put in 100% effort and concentration B) If I do concede then I can almost every time trace it back, usually to the midfield area where I did something wrong.
Now again, I go back to IRL defending. If you are a good defender and I mean top class, then you hardly HAVE to tackle. Take Rio Ferdinand for example. His role is more of pick up the pieces sweeper these days, but his reading of the game is brilliant. If tackling was SO EASY, why do ninety per cent of defences around the world revert to two banks of four and get back behind the ball? Why doesn't everyone just attack the man with the ball constantly? I'll tell you why, because it's difficult against top players.
For the first time in any PES game since the PS2 days, I fear top players. I totally switch on when I see these players get the ball - Ribbery, Robben, Eto, Bale.
Now I know you'll come back with words like, dumb, condescending, stupid etc etc, you used to use RETARDED a lot but I guess Daddy bought you a thesaurus last Christmas and now you get more points on the Scrabble board for 'Condescending', which is great.
You may also call me stupid for not understanding your great 'Space Theory', and whether or not I want to go through, over, under, or up my arse with it. Go ahead call me stupid, there are many things I cannot comprehend in your posts, you may be onto something and I just don't 'get it', or maybe your talking bullshit.
All I care about is that I want a game that resembles something that I see on TV. For me, this iteration of PES, is as near to perfection, for me, that there is. The movement of my players, the movement of the CPU players. The toughness of the game. The art of defending. The balance between dribbling and passing (I've never been a dribbler, but I am learning all the time about how to dribble effectively). I'm having a scream getting beat, and the adrenaline rushes when I win.
THIS IS MY OPINION, and considering I'm the one that will be playing the game in MY HOUSE this year, to be honest, the only one I have to convince about anything is me.
Now, I don't know what online is going to be like, and I don't know whether or not the effectiveness or rather ineffectiveness of tackling as you put it, will be a major exploit, Time will tell. But when I played my mate in two player this wasn't the case.
As always I'll await your reply.
I had not even finished reading the post that you wrote, and I already knew the post was filled with specific and subjective observations which I cannot really judge since I have not played the video game. The bottom line is, you are glossing over fundamental deficiencies in order to support your opinion; on the other hand, I am not talking about my opinion, I am merely pointing out a fact.
One thing is to express your opinion, which I respect, and another thing is to say that regardless of your opinion the PES12 tackling system is just like real life; you see what you did there? You went from expressing your opinion, to saying that whomever opposes your opinion is unrealistic.
Listen, I watch a lot of football, I play a lot of football, I know that Cristiano Ronaldo does not dribble past two LEVANTE players on a consistent basis, I know that Cristiano Ronaldo finds it very difficult to dribble past Dani Alves just once in 90 minutes of play, and I know that Cristiano Ronaldo was unrealistically good in PES11, and I know that Cristiano Ronaldo will be better in PES12.
You know why Cristiano Ronaldo was so good in PES11? Because the gamer does NOT have a fucking button to determine when he wants to execute a standing tackle, because the standing tackle is automatic and requires no sense of direction, because you cannot direct a standing tackle without also determining the direction that you are looking at -- example: you are looking towards the east (towards the opponent's half) and you suddenly direct the left analog stick towards the west, as a result, the player will immediately turn around and will now be looking towards the west, which means that it is rather impossible to determine something as precise as a standing tackle, considering the fact that you cannot determine the direction of the standing tackle without also determining the direction that you are looking at -- can you comprehend the fundamental deficiency??
Or is it difficult for you to comprehend the fact that the amount of directions or accuracy within the space, in accordance to generic directions such as east, west, north, south, south-east, north-east, south-west, north-west, is nonexistent??
In other words, how many directions of movement within space do you have in accordance to the WEST? Movement within space does not comprehend whatever WEST is since you are not moving through space, therefore, how many directions of movement within space do you have in accordance to the WEST? What happens when you are looking towards the WEST (the opponent's penalty area) and you suddenly direct the left analog stick towards the SOUTH-WEST?
Considering the fact that as soon as the left analog stick is directed from WEST to SOUTH-WEST, the player will now be looking towards the SOUTH-WEST, it is safe to say that you barely have any movement within the space in accordance to one direction.
Therefore, do you not comprehend the fact that, in my opinion, such an automatic and simplistic system is not realistic at all?
If the PES12 tackling system is the very same PES11 tackling system, but just more responsive and with some irrelevant non-fundamental differences, I fail to see why it is realistic. PES11 did not offered the freedom to decide when you wanted a non-compromising standing tackle or when you wanted a strong standing tackle; it did not offered the accuracy to tackle the left foot or the right foot of the ball carrier; it did not offered the accuracy to determine the distance of the standing tackle in accordance to the given direction; it did not offered independent buttons, one for determining the direction and the distance, and another one for determining the timing, etc, etc.
What all this means, is that Cristiano Ronaldo will be unrealistically good, because statistically he is superior to the average defender, and since standing tackles are automatic, the computer will determine that Player X is not good enough to tackle Cristiano Ronaldo, which means that the standing tackle will (A) be a foul, resulting in a free-kick or spot-kick, or (B) will not actually do anything; and since Player X cannot determine or decide to simply commit a tactical foul, Player X is forced into executing the sliding tackle, which can easily cost you a red card.
I just fail to see how such a system is anything realistic; the truth is, whether you like it or not, that dribbling is very simplistic and automatic, and therefore tackling is equally simplistic and automatic. In PES5 the balance was pretty good; though unfortunately, since PES6, the balance between attackers and defenders was lost, and the game has ever since favored the attacker over the defender.
I would really love to see how many times Robben would dribble past Dani Alves in 90 minutes of play, in real life; perhaps once or maybe even twice, but Robben is not going to be the freak of nature that he is on PES12. I have no problem with your opinion, what I have a problem with, is with your weak attempt at disregarding obvious facts in order to describe your opinion as realistic.
So far, I have not expressed a single subjective observation about PES12, I have merely pointed out the fundamental deficiencies which I know for a fact have not been fixed. Though nonetheless, I do appreciate the observations that you have shared, and I will give them some thought when I play PES12.
What you're saying is stupid.
On the contrary, what YOU are saying is stupid.... You are merely attempting to disregard facts in order to support your opinion.
On the other hand, what I'm saying is very simple, movement within the space does not exists within the game, which means that direction of movement, direction of dribbling, direction of tackling, is highly assisted and automatic in accordance to the stats, meaning that the stats function automatically rather than manually.
You are arguing mostly about the skill of the gamer, you are saying that if the gamer has the skill or reflexes he can tackle constantly; on the other hand, I am saying, that regardless of ability, the fact still is that movement within space is nonexistent or very close to nonexistent, and that because movement itself is highly automatic and assisted, the computer has the power to disregard your ability as a gamer in order to satisfy the statistics.
THIS IS MY OPINION, and considering I'm the one that will be playing the game in MY HOUSE this year, to be honest, the only one I have to convince about anything is me.
Completely incoherent, I do not remember insulting you for having an opinion, I have insulted you for your actions, not for your opinion; furthermore, I am not trying to convince or persuade you of anything, I'm merely expressing why I agree with Athlon.... In case you forgot, Athlon has played the demo, and this is what Athlon said:
"Utter crap. For last years beer mat, Konami spouted a load of brown runny stuff about 'engineered for freedom'. That lasted long, didn't it? A part of the game as much as passing and shooting is TACKLING. Its a part of the game, and the player should be able to make a standing tackle whenever they want."
I merely agreed with Athlon, and since I have not played PES12 I decided not to express any subjective observations, however, I did agreed with Athlon on the basis that I own PES11 and I know what Athlon means: you cannot execute a standing tackle when you want, due to numerous reasons.
It is a completely objective observation, the fact that you react as if I am attempting to convince you of anything, tells me how immature you are; the fact that you actually insulted me for merely expressing an objective observation, tells me, again, that you are either immature or a hypocrite.
I'm merely pointing out some fundamental deficiencies, but I cannot agree or disagree with some of your more specific observations simply because I have not played the game, I only disagree with you about PES12 being just like real life.
And, again, back when I played PES5 and PES6, I really enjoyed playing them, but I wouldn't describe them as realistic since it was easy to notice the massive difference between real life and PES5.
All I care about is that I want a game that resembles something that I see on TV. For me, this iteration of PES, is as near to perfection, for me, that there is. The movement of my players, the movement of the CPU players. The toughness of the game. The art of defending. The balance between dribbling and passing (I've never been a dribbler, but I am learning all the time about how to dribble effectively). I'm having a scream getting beat, and the adrenaline rushes when I win.
That's your opinion, I don't have a problem with that, though I do wonder why you think that your opinion is relevant where I am concerned.
Now again, I go back to IRL defending. If you are a good defender and I mean top class, then you hardly HAVE to tackle.
And you call that realistic?? Please, waste no time, go watch some real football, count the number of standing tackles that are thrown.... You mean to say that a video game where you hardly have to tackle at all resembles what you see on the TV?? Are you sure you are watching football?
I don't know which league you are watching, but whenever I watch La Liga, EPL, Serie A, or Bundesliga, a lot of standing tackles are thrown constantly and repeatedly....
If tackling was SO EASY, why do ninety per cent of defences around the world revert to two banks of four and get back behind the ball? Why doesn't everyone just attack the man with the ball constantly? I'll tell you why, because it's difficult against top players.
That might be true for some teams, but what about Barcelona? Have you notice how they defend? They defend in packs and they pressure the ball carrier very quickly.
How can you defend like Barcelona in PES12?
My two cents is, not running like a headless chicken towards the ball carrier, does not necessarily means that standing tackles are a rare occurrence.
For example, a Barcelona vs Real Madrid game, if you count the amount of standing tackles that Dani Alves and Xabi Alonso execute throughout the 90 minutes of play, you'll find that it is a much higher number than what you see in PES12, and we are only talking about two individuals as opposed to twenty.
So it's pretty much like real life Amateur.
Again, I fail to see how a video game where you hardly have to tackle is pretty much like real life....
I appreciate the specific observations that you have shared, and when I play PES12 I will consider your observations, but as far as my argument is concerned, it is based on facts, not on specific and subjective observations.