Advanced Formations (Images)

[Han]

I wouldn't make substitutions every time you change, I was assuming you'd be using this for your master league team, so that you could keep it in and not have to load it up every time you want to use it. Also this way you can buy in the right players for the job, I would use a specialist formation for each club team you use as the players will always be different. If you know what I mean. Maybe you could try setting some up and using the template to demonstrate?

Well, I want to use the formation for on-line gaming via live and there you are not allowed to use master-league teams.
Not sure if I understand your last question: Do you want me to make the formation with names of the players who are in the default line-up?

If you are only changing line up for a bit at a time, it shouldn't cause too much bother having your defenders out of position.

Think about the next scenario for a reason to use the 3 formations: Say I am 1-0 down and I switch from the default formation to formation B. I score twice: 2-1 up! Now I want to switch back to my default formation and to 'sit' on my lead.
So that is why I want to use your three formations. Indeed, when I choosed to substitute the backs and my sweeper in order to have players in the right position, I would have got problems to go back to my default-formation.
Still I asked if it matters if players are out of position. I was not able to play this way if it really mattered. Do you understand me?

 

[jMz]

It's just getting busy as I'm going out!
Thanks for your nice comments guys, I'm glad you appreciate my "work". Flattery gets you everywhere, as I'm a big headed get!
I'm going out now to play football, then no doubt a good long session on PES4 with the lads. I will study your questions in greater detail when I get back and post better answers. But for now:-
Observer.
You have highlighted the main problems with 3 up front and 3 at the back, you aren't the only one to have these problems, believe me, that is pretty much the reason why I studied the alternates so much, to fix those problems. If you want your wings to be stronger simply use side midfielders, or even go for a wild 4 up front with wingers and strikers. Madness, but lots of attacking fun. Again I'll go into greater detail later if you still need help.

Han.
For me to do specific formations for each team I'd have to study them in greater detail and spend time perfecting a good set up for that side. I was just suggesting you take what you have learnt and show us what you are using. I understand if you are playing Live you may not want to share!
Like I said earlier, players out of position for short periods of time shouldn't cause too much damage, and it is sometimes very useful to have a defender in your midfield for tackling and winning headers and stuff. I think I understand you mate, if I haven't answered you properley, just ask again.
The main idea behind putting players in two/three positions is to get the most out of their abilities, and most importantly, confuse your opponent.

 

[Han]

WOW... just downloaded Photoshop try out version, but using a template with that is difficult. Can you mail me how to do that, or is that too complicated?
I am not bothering that people can see what I use on live. If it's good, what can they do about it??
As soon as I know how to work with photoshop, I show you how it looks like.
Hope you do well playing football. If your football is equally good as your tactics, then you are at least at conference level
Let us know how PES went as well with your teammates

 

[jMz]

WOW... just downloaded Photoshop try out version, but using a template with that is difficult. Can you mail me how to do that, or is that too complicated?
I am not bothering that people can see what I use on live. If it's good, what can they do about it??
As soon as I know how to work with photoshop, I show you how it looks like.
Hope you do well playing football. If your football is equally good as your tactics, then you are at least at conference level
Let us know how PES went as well with your teammates

Yes it isn't as easy as I make it look is it?!
I sent you an Email Han.

 

[Han]

Thanks

 

[jMz]

No bother, when I know I've got time to sit I'll go through it all with you, I may even set up a new thread to show how to use it.
Just think, I made that template from scratch...
Anyway I've just had a phone call, my lift is on the way, only an hour late...

 

[jMz]

A setup dedicated to my team, Newcastle United.
It hasn't been tested extensively, but it is what I have as default on my option file and it has served me well so far.

 

[Han]

Interesting again James
Are you using the different formations to adapt to opponents formations?
Or are you playing B if you have to score, for instance?
What are your reasons to give CF's a defensive 'Normal' defensive arrow, rather than 'low' (in formation A and B)?
Why has Shearer in the default formation that strange attacking arrow (back and left)?
Just some questions...
Very curious to your answers

 

[jMz]

Interesting again James
Are you using the different formations to adapt to opponents formations?
Or are you playing B if you have to score, for instance?
What are your reasons to give CF's a defensive 'Normal' defensive arrow, rather than 'low' (in formation A and B)?
Why has Shearer in the default formation that strange attacking arrow (back and left)?
Just some questions...
Very curious to your answers

The different formations are just to spice things up a bit, for both the reasons you stated, and to create a bit of movement. If the opposition decides to man mark my striker (Kluivert), he will be dragged out and leave a gap, sometimes.
On Normal, the attackers will chase the ball down a bit, but won't bother on low, just to give them a rest every now and again.
Shearer has those arrows so he will pull back for headers from long kicks, and right so he cuts in on to his right foot. Simple. It's not perfect but it's as good as I can get it to work.

 

[Han]

Nice! I will make a formation with Juventus, added with an alternative one (I don't have a second alternative yet).
I found a solution for the diagrams: No Photoshop yet; I will use PES 3-PC for making it
I hopefully have it posted tomorrow night.

 

[Han]

Okay, here is my Juventus-formation (Default) and the alternative if we need to attack (formation A)
In the table below you see the players I use for both formations and their positions in it.

...............DEFAULT..Form.A.........
--------------------------------------------------
Buffon.........GK...........GK
Ferrara........CBT(R)......CBT(R)
Legrotagglie CBT(C) ....CBT(C)
Montero.......CBT(L).....CBT(L)
Thuram........SB(R)......RMF
Tudor...........SB(L).......LMF
Camoranesi..OMF........WF(R)
Nedved.........DMF........DMF
Emerson......OMF........OMF
Del Piero......CF(L).......CF(L)
Trezeguet.....CF(R).......CF(C)

Manual strategy:
Zone press=square
Counter-attack=triangle
Off side trap=X
Formation A=O

The attacking attitude in the default formation looks like this:

Now the defending attitude:

Back line=B
Zone Press=B
Off side trap=A
Counter-attack=A


The attacking formation of my all out attack formation A:

...and their defensive attitude:

Back line=B
Zone Press=A
Off side trap=A
Counter-attack=A

Jmz, I am curious if you can find some improvement for this.
Especially formation A probably can be better, the default is used from your example.
My intention is to use default in normal situations or when defending a lead. Formation B is for situations when I need to play all out attack.
What do you think?

EDIT: I see a slight error in formation A: Thuram (RMF) should have a medium defensive arrow, not high..

 

[jMz]

I like that a lot, you make me proud, all the time I've spent here teaching the way of the formation has just all become worth while!
Seriously, top notch mate, I wouldn't want to try and improve that for you mate, it looks as if you have it bang on, the only thing I would do is maybe go even more attacking on your all out choice....
Will check back later, busy now..

 

[Han]

....the only thing I would do is maybe go even more attacking on your all out choice....
Will check back later, busy now..

Thanks You make me curious...

 

[jMz]

Well thats what I would do. If my default is very defensive, I would normally set up a very attacking alternate, just incase. I would stick with how you have it now, then use formation B for a 2-4-4 maybe??? If you dare... (stick your CB's very deep in your box)
Check out Classic Brazil for ideas.. They use 2 at the back.

 

[Han]

I haven't unlock classic Brazil in PES 4 yet
But two CBT's very deep... but that leaves huge holes on the midfield...
But that's the calculated risk I guess?
BTW I played some complete matches using my all out attack and I won all of them
Looks like it is not so risky, just like you suggested!

 

[observer]

Good Work

I haven't unlock classic Brazil in PES 4 yet
But two CBT's very deep... but that leaves huge holes on the midfield...
But that's the calculated risk I guess?
BTW I played some complete matches using my all out attack and I won all of them
Looks like it is not so risky, just like you suggested!

Interesting stuff, Han.
I haven't tried your formation in action. However, personally I woudn't use 5 defenders in the back as my intial formation. Unless you really know how to take your time, control the ball and you like to build your offense slowly, it will take you forever to score ! I am not sure how your formation works in counter attacks, but regularly your mid-feild players here should be able to slow down the pace enough to allow your LSB, and RSB to run forward and join the offense. In most of my matches especially with strong human opponents, it is hard to keep the ball that long and you have to rely on fast pace. Another option you Mid feild players have here is to have a direct through pass to the two strikers which should not work most of the times against decent defense. From your experience, how often do you score often with such formation?
Another hint here to escape pressure is to try to play around more with your attacking arrows for your mid fields and strikers making them run more oftenly to the sides. ( I see all their arrows going forward only)


Regarding your 3*4*3 diamond formaion you displayed it, it is cool. I really like this formation and I have it as a defaulf formation in many matches. I think it is the only formation with 3 in the back that gives you a sort of control to cover the sides. As I mentioned early in this thread, the side attacks are very dangerous with only 3 defenders. I suggest you give a back arrow as well to your side midfeilds.

A final Note, I think it is not a good practice to set all team strategies to As and Bs. This sets a huge pressure on you team and they eventually collapse (They tend to loose it all in this case). I always try to have 2 strategies as C, and rely on the manual strategy. For example,
Back Line A
Zone Press C
Off side A
Counter C

and in the manual strategy you can apply Zone press and Counter sparingly during the match. This way you won't affect the stamina of your players

Thanks for sharing and keep it coming guys....

My 2 cents....!!

 

[Han]

Interesting stuff, Han.
I haven't tried your formation in action. However, personally I woudn't use 5 defenders in the back as my intial formation. Unless you really know how to take your time, control the ball and you like to build your offense slowly, it will take you forever to score !

That is one way to score, indeed. I did win some matches that way, but I agree with you that is will not be a high scoring match that way.

I am not sure how your formation works in counter attacks, but regularly your mid-feild players here should be able to slow down the pace enough to allow your LSB, and RSB to run forward and join the offense. In most of my matches especially with strong human opponents, it is hard to keep the ball that long and you have to rely on fast pace.

This comes close to my way of playing I play a lot on the counter. I let the opponent come to about 10 virtual meters on my own half and than I start to press him. As long as he is not that far on my half, I am busy organizing my defense and midfield, ready for a counter. If my opponent doesn't like to come forward and likes to defend himself, I use my backs as side midfielders, just like you suggested. That's why my backs has only a 'normal' defensive arrow and not high. That's why they have forward attacking arrows.

Another option you Mid feild players have here is to have a direct through pass to the two strikers which should not work most of the times against decent defense. Another hint here to escape pressure is to try to play around more with your attacking arrows for your mid fields and strikers making them run more oftenly to the sides. ( I see all their arrows going forward only)

The direct throughpass to my attackers mostly works on the counter. The reason my OH's don't have an arrow to the side is because the wings are for the backs. I use backs and midfielders to make combinations, like 1-2's (much more room for that at the wings than through the middle!). This way I get space enough to cross a ball into the box, or even a low pass. Don't forget that you create room for your attackers and OH's when threating through the wings. You strech defenses that way. Then you can pass to other players around the box who become free that way.

From your experience, how often do you score often with such formation?

Depends on the opposition really I am not a star at this game, but by tweaking my formation like this I win more than before with more than 1 goal at the highest level. Say two goals a match, but when better players play this formation the way I do it, they may score more often.

Regarding your 3*4*3 diamond formaion you displayed it, it is cool. I really like this formation and I have it as a defaulf formation in many matches. I think it is the only formation with 3 in the back that gives you a sort of control to cover the sides. As I mentioned early in this thread, the side attacks are very dangerous with only 3 defenders. I suggest you give a back arrow as well to your side midfeilds.

Normally I would do that, but these side midfielders are actually Thuram and Tudor, who are defenders by nature.
First I was thinking the same as you, but they don't need these arrows. It will be needed when you put real side-midfielders overtehere.

A final Note, I think it is not a good practice to set all team strategies to As and Bs. This sets a huge pressure on you team and they eventually collapse (They tend to loose it all in this case). I always try to have 2 strategies as C, and rely on the manual strategy. For example,
Back Line A
Zone Press C
Off side A
Counter C

and in the manual strategy you can apply Zone press and Counter sparingly during the match. This way you won't affect the stamina of your players

Thanks for sharing and keep it coming guys....

My 2 cents....!!

Thanks for you two cents, they were invaluable
Be free to give your comment on what I just wrote

 

[observer]

I will try your formation, Han. actually I am thinking to have it as my all defense formation which I usually switch on when I am leading and my players are gasping for air by the end of the match.

I like to play offensive football and I try oyt different start up formations depending on the opponent formation. I wish I could share some of my formations with you, unfortunately I am not good at photoshop or any other graphic programs. I will try to display it in a simpler way here later.

We take care

 

[Han]

I did not use Photoshop; I used PES 3 PC version and made screenshots from it... simple
Try that too... Unless you don't have PES 3 PC.... maybe you can use the demo version to make it?

Let me know how my formation works for you

 

[jMz]

The newest addition to the library is possibly my strongest team on PES4. Against all of my mates, this is the only team I am completely unbeaten with (apart from the ones I haven't used of ourse). Not only unbeaten, but I have regularly dominated matches and scored 4+ with this exact set-up.
And yes, the template has changed again! I can't help tweaking...