FIFA12 vs PES 2012: Biggest Chance In Years for Konami to reclaim some ground

[Tech_Skill]

A few random thoughts here...

You know, this Fifa vs PES thing is a bit like a football match in-itself. One team dominates, then misses chances to kill off the opposition, opposition comes back to haunt them but misses chances and lets the other team back in. It makes you wonder if anyone will ever land the killer blow (you could argue the last time that happened was with PES from PS1 to PS2, but im talking about events after PES6)

Fifa from 08/09 onwards actually did change the way football games were made in a way, because from what I saw EA Sports really started the whole fan feedback movement, if you think about previous football games, only handful of people had an influence on the game, EA Sports changed that when it appeared to invite open feedback from all fans across the globe. So this is a positive that I tend to credit EA with.

EA for years had no respect from the hardcore and thus their game lacked critical acclaim when coming up against PES in its prime, it took them YEARS to get the hardcore onside, which led to Fifa being taken more seriously and thus getting critical acclaim. They deserve an award for fucking it up so damn quickly.

Unfortunately they have been exposed as liars and con artists because of the following (and this is just a few things).

-Failing to resolve issues that were present in Fifa 09/10
-Lying about new game features (Personality + was ridiculously over exaggerated)
-Releasing patches which do not fix the issues they are supposed to fix
-Releasing patches which introduce more issues into the game (we are talking stuff like one of the recent patches which made the game freeze)
-Outright lying about the content of patches (They told members on their own forum they were working on a huge patch, a patch so big it was taking them weeks to compile the list, and in the end the patch wasn't a list, it was 2 paragraphs)

The situation down on the official Fifa11 forums is incredible. Due to the above there is all out mutiny on the forum with regular abuse being posted in the direction of EA and the developers. Its pretty obvious that the developers DO NOT respect the members of the forum and only go on the forum if they have to as part of some marketing ploy or as a saving face exercise. Its got to the stage where there is hardly any major EA representation on the forum, the fans have been sold a piece of shit, no sign of Patterson and Rutter anywhere (until Fifa12).

The result on the forums has been a mass exodus to PES11 for the reasons I mentioned when the Demo's came out, Fifa just has no depth in the areas that it matters and in my opinion, the Fifa series took a huge hit in the eyes of the hardcore fans, infact many (like myself) are refusing to buy EA products period.

Konami have done two key moves this year which have really got them on side even with Fifa supporters.

1) They released a patch which messed up the ireland kits, but then released another patch immediately to correct this flaw. This completely contradicted EA's stance on patches, which was that it took ages for MS and Sony to validate the patch and thats why patches took so long.

2) They released ANOTHER patch with a list of gameplay fixes. This really caused uproar in the Fifa Community as the patch which they got hardly fixed any of the major issues and EA didnt even provide a list of fixes, instead there was a few paragraphs of stuff like ''the patch should improve your overally gameplay experience :lol

So, many of you probably already know this, but for those who don't, I'd just thought i'd make it clear, EA are on the ropes big time and right now, in terms of critical acclaim from the hardcore fans, they are there for the taking, infact it seems quite a few of them have already passed back over to PES.

When Hardcore gamers invest hours learning the style and control sets of one game, it can be pretty difficult to get them to cross over and Learn a whole new control set/different control set all over again, unless the game is very worthy of it. Fifa and PES are very different games, I highly doubt the Fifa fans who spent hours learning PES11 are going to switch back to fifa get spend hours re acclimatizing unless the game is brilliant or unless Konami make another shite PES game.

Another problem for EA is that those who have played PES11 and enjoy it are going to be far more sensitive to things like Player Individuality and depth in Career mode because these things are far more prevalent in PES than in Fifa right now, which means EA probably won't win them over with the bullshit personality + crap they passed off this year and might actually have to pull their finger out their ass and implement a more comprehensive system.

So again it seems we are at the crossroads period again, in 2007 Konami had the chance to take their PS2 domination into next generation gaming, they failed. In 2009 EA sports had the chance to nail the coffin on PES for few years and had Fifa 10 had been bug free and actually contained the promised improvements, it would have. 2010/2011 and now Konami have the chance to take the hardcore fans away from Fifa (which is what PES was about from day one anyways), obviously the question is, can they take it?

 

[danzine]

not gonna happen its like COD and Battlefield call of duty will out sell it again next year as will FIFA out sell PES,

but if you mean in terms of wide spread critical acclaim then you have a point but Seasbass and his cronies have to listen to the fans this time and not, take away good features and replace them with nonsense

October 2011 will be fun indeed

 

[Tech_Skill]

but if you mean in terms of wide spread critical acclaim then you have a point but Seasbass and his cronies have to listen to the fans this time and not, take away good features and replace them with nonsense

Yes, this is what I mean, I'm not suggesting PES will outsell Fifa in 2011. But I have seen the situation on the official forums and its the worst iv'e ever seen it, EA sports have obviously given up on Fifa11 and have no intention of finding out what is wrong with the product. So if they cant be assed to find out the depth of the bugs and problems in the code now, you know next years version is likely to have the same old issues. And then when the issues appear, they obviously dont have enough time to patch them or enough time to work out what exactly the issues are.

This is just part of the reason Fifa is losing serious credibility amongst the online gaming community. I think they are in for some pain next year, unless they manage to pull the wool over people's eyes again.

 

[S-D-P]

At the stage the games are at now personally can't see myself preferring FIFA over PES next year, Although both companies can be cretins PES just feels more like football and the basic fundamentals(first touch, player individuality, dribbling etc) are ahead of fifa. Enjoyed FIFA for the past few years but there's something not right about it, after prolonged play you realise your playing a game where the developers are running out of ideas and don't really give a shit, career mode is a fucking mess to the point you feel like a mug for starting one, can't see EA fixing this in a year after the attitude they have shown with 10 and 09.

PES has a good base to work from hopefully konami build on it, as an offline game I expect PES 2012 to be even further ahead but KONAMI can't make the same mistake they did with the atrocious 07(360)08 and 09. Despite how highly I regard pes 2011 parts of the game need an overhaul, no excuses for dodgy refs and basic errors in cursor switching(although some of these are pathetic balancing acts).

Agree with what you said about the hardcore gamer aspect, FIFA features a load of average modes to try and desperately please everyone and make a bit more money, would have rather EA focused on CM than be a goalkeeper EA always take the easy route.

 

[optimistic]

A few random thoughts here...



-Releasing patches which introduce more issues into the game (we are talking stuff like one of the recent patches which made the game freeze)
-

hello there

fifa 11 does have game freezing problem, the complaints about that from fifa fans were everywhere on EA fifa's forum, i just cant believe such a obvious bug was not detected by EA's stuff, dont they ever test the game before release, in this aspect, pes game is better, i mean pes games dont freeze up when you are about to shoot to the goal, but fifa 11 does that. i played fifa 11 for about 2 weeks, random freeze happens from time to time, apart from this bug, i think fifa 11 is a good game, but i like pes 2011 more because of the player's realistic movement and pes master league, fifa 11 player's movement is also good, but its a bit too sticky and shots on goals just dont feel right.

i think pes 2011 is a turning point for konami, if they can improve further in 2012, then there going to be more pes fans than fifa fans in the world, hopefully, who knows.

in pes 2011, opponent through ball passes is annoying and also overused
shooting on goals is random and inconsistent, scoring positions and patterns are similar( especially for headers), without these shortcomings, pes 2011 is a very good game, i think

again, sorry for my english, i am not an english native speaker, but i do like your thoughts and comments about pes vs fifa games

 

[fick]

A few random thoughts here...

Random thoughts maybe, but certainly on the money. I agree FIFA have not implemented anything (barring the better "360" control last year) that has set the football gaming world alight, but so too have Konami missed an opportunity to nail the current gen gaming experience in the way they did in it's PS1 & 2 heyday.

As for what next year brings? I would love for PES to go back to it's roots, rather than the much maligned drawing board, but fear it never will. Too many issues have been glossed over by both companies with new and lets face it, broken features.

My belief is that next year will bring more of the same. Pessimistic? Definitely, but my hopes have been dashed too many times over the last few years to a point where I only bought PES 2010 when it was £10 pre-owned and am unlikely to purchase 2011.

I still do hold a sliver of hope. Just.

 

[Tech_Skill]

Another thing that going to be interesting is. Is the online gaming community going to make a stand? Or are they going to buy Fifa on release next year? Looking back I dont see how anybody didn't know Fifa11 was going to be a bugged up piece of shit, It was pretty obvious after Fifa10 that EA Sports release a game, release a patch, a few squad updates and then fuck off to the next Fifa, as a result, if they are not fixing core issues/bugs that in the game, why would the game be bug-free or better next year.

Im expecting Fifa12 to have a ton of bugs too, simply because it seems EA sports don't care about fixing or looking deep enough into the issues they already have, so how are these kind of issue going to suddenly disappear for next year.

Its also pretty clear that EA Sports dont give a SHIT anymore about the fan feedback they get (because they are getting so much heat), so the developers quite clearly see the community as a bunch of whiners and don't really take them seriously, so again, I just don't see how this game is going to move forward. In a way it's sad, because they have the potential there to make a quality game but seem determined to let Konami back in the game.

 

[bestpesever]

someone need to open new thread in feedback zone like this
IM THINKING OUT LOUD
and there people write who playing this game a lot.
and there u can write anything about this game.about gameplay.what u want to change,add,remove.
you can write about keepers-better position on goal.about cb,cm cf.if u dont like some animation like
that stumble shaking animation need to cut 1/3when u not close to the body,something driving u crazy,
about some moves(faster,slower) you dont like or u want to add.formation,sliders,teamwork,possesion,ai,
about cursor change,offsides.shots.ref,ml,mlo,freekicks,animations,footwork,
tackling,one on ones.attacker,
defender,nets,etc.what ever u want of this game and how u see this game gonna be in 2012.
u can add some ideas in for mlo,ml,coatch mode,say what u want back from previous versions.etc.
people who play this game a lot can see where is the problem(what is wrong)and say,add notes in notepad
(if u need month or more whatever to add notes.)and then just
copy past in thread?but i think that need to be more focus on gameplay?

 

[Tech_Skill]

Here is the Truth. I dont think Konami read our feedback forum. I think the only forum they bother with is Pesfan and Lord Adam's site. It's something I was gonna speak out on at a later date.

 

[bestpesever]

aha,i remember u started something before.but that gone away.

 

[Gravy]

Whilst most points are valid and i wholely agree that for the most part, fifa are not on the ropes if you find the sales figures despite what the online community (the hardcore who look into things online rather than just put up with it), fifa is not in any worry of running out of customers they sell more than pes pretty much every year. Why... the same old issues of holding the licenses to the major leagues, just having fifa on the box.

On the same arguement PES outsells fifa in certain places, i remember an interview with PES frontman Jon Murphy in which he mentioned where PES outsells - Italy, South America, Spain and Asia amongst others. Meanwhile fifa has germany and most of the uk to rely on as well as the big US market.

The other side is both a big companies EA is enormous and as long as they continue to make decent sales (and they will) theres no worry of them not buying the licenses etc so it will always be an ongoing rivalry.

Looking at whos on the internet talking is a tiny majority and whilst we usually care more about the games that doesn't make a difference to either company. Obviously they rely on us most for feedback but other than that if theres sales they'll be happy.

So in summary look at the bigger picture theres no final nail in the coffin because its nowhere near that point and never will be.

Personally ive never touched fifa, apart from when a friend tried to force fifa 09 on me, i just can't play fifa games i instantly know its not pes that all players feel the same, and despite what people say i hate some of the animations.

If you watched Barca vs Real the other day funnily enough it reminded me of PES 2011 and i can only see it improving further next year - even though i've bought every pes game im fully aware that with konami its always 1 step forward 2 steps back ( sometimes just little things, like not being able to see overall goals by your players on ML'2010') or bigger problems with gameplay

I think it rests the same for others too theres people who will buy whichever game has the better year (jumpfrom game to game), and then theres people like me who'll loyally buy PES every year despite knowing theres issues because quite frankly I wouldn't play anything else.

I still think theres room on the market despite the rivalry being healthy, do you really want one company to excel and the other to crash out? No competition is good for us the gamers as it gives us a choice imagine if it wasn't there. I expect that both next years games will have on going problems with a lot of luck maybe they could create a truely great game that sits above all others but its doubful.

 

[Ultimate777]

At the stage the games are at now personally can't see myself preferring FIFA over PES next year, Although both companies can be cretins PES just feels more like football and the basic fundamentals(first touch, player individuality, dribbling etc) are ahead of fifa. Enjoyed FIFA for the past few years but there's something not right about it, after prolonged play you realise your playing a game where the developers are running out of ideas and don't really give a shit, career mode is a fucking mess to the point you feel like a mug for starting one, can't see EA fixing this in a year after the attitude they have shown with 10 and 09.

PES has a good base to work from hopefully konami build on it, as an offline game I expect PES 2012 to be even further ahead but KONAMI can't make the same mistake they did with the atrocious 07(360)08 and 09. Despite how highly I regard pes 2011 parts of the game need an overhaul, no excuses for dodgy refs and basic errors in cursor switching(although some of these are pathetic balancing acts).

Agree with what you said about the hardcore gamer aspect, FIFA features a load of average modes to try and desperately please everyone and make a bit more money, would have rather EA focused on CM than be a goalkeeper EA always take the easy route.

You've highlighted most of my sentiments towards both games. This year pes11 has taken a step forward and moved in the right direction. Though thats not ignoring the multiple issues that need addressing which you've correctly stressed. Whereas fifa11 has gone backwards and stagnated. I got both games so there is no bias it's just me telling it like it is as I'm not getting paid by being loyal to one particular game.

There's no doubt PES 2011 is a massive improvement from the last few versions konami have released. Last year was a complete joke you know it was made for arseholes, they may aswell have just made the game compatable with a 4-way pacman type arcade joystick.

The crux of the matter is this year PES has at last improved in terms of gameplay to a point where it has now overtaken FIFA again.

Compared to FIFA the play is organic and it rewards passing play and your imagination. You can try anything and let your creativity work wonders.

Defensive play is improved and what set's it apart from FIFA is the individuality of players and teams. Barca play like Barca, Bayern like Bayern and there is noticeable differences in terms of players individuality. It's now fully 360 and manual and requires a lot of getting used to from previous Pes editions. The shooting is dependent on player body position so if your body position is poor it results in a weak shot which is how it should be. The tactical management system is superb though. And easy to use on the fly and when the AI are losing they do attack and make the appropriate changes.


FIFA still for me lacks creativity and imagination that PES has always had, up until the last few releases that is. Though to their credit they've come a long way from their horror showings back in the 90s. The gameplay of the new fifa games has changed immensely since their predecessors, and it has improved beyond measure (although it is still inferior to that of PES in many ways). How have fifa achieved this miracle? By shamelessly and ruthlessly copying the gameplay which Konami have worked and innovated so long to perfect. I honestly can't believe there isn't an intellectual property or patent infringement issue here. Maybe if fifa spent more money on innovating new engine advancements rather than licences and stupid gimmicks for hyped up kids, they might have a half decent game of their own, rather than a second-class, stolen imitation of someone else'

The only thing FIFA has over PES is licenced teams and shiny colourful graphics for the kids to awe at but it lacks substance and unpredictability in the gameplay which is what makes football today what is. You know you need a footballing brain to play pes. You just need to know how to move your fingers to bash pressure and shoot button to win on fifa.

PES is the more complex game for a mature audience who really go deep with their football and like to customize and strategize and it does actually make in difference towards how your team is set out.

FIFA i think is more of a spectacle and more of an instant gratification show to appease the naive and those who were held back in school and adults who are easily influenced by advertisement and presentation. I mean the ball in the game gets kicked so fast that the camara can't even keep up with it. But that's what their audience like, everything fast and easy.

I get these fifa clowns telling me that game represents real football, Then I wonder if they've seen a real football match in action. Because it's insultive as saying mcdonalds is the highest standard of real quality food there is and is better than a home cooked meal. It just makes no sense

This is a game where you can score at will, FIFA doesn't respresent real football at all. Ping pong passing, 90mins of x button pressure with no need to slide tackle.

Players like Darren fucking Fletcher doing 8 Zidane spins and Sombrero Flicks in a match, awful defensive Ai that gifts you goals, terrible attacking ai that puts up no sort of fight, awful game speed in comparison to real life, personality plus of a corpse. All players feel the same still, bar a few big names and even they dont feel different enough. Dribbling is a joke and set pieces are still piss easy. You can even put your goalkeeper for example someon as pathetic as almunia and will still come out playing like a seasoned creative midfielder who can sprays passes across the park like Scholes or Xavi .FIFA is filled with happy meal tricks that noone but messi on a great day is gonna pull off and yet even a substandard player like ian hunt can pull them off at will

Put defoe in defence in fifa and he'll put in a shift like a legendary steve bruce in his prime. It's in insult to anyones intelligence. It's a game catered towrads unskilled barbaric idiots that have no respect for the sport., you got AI doing the defending for you, everything is assisted all you like and you got this so called dribbles once you master a few you can exploit the whole game since you cant counter it. The physical strength of player is all that maters not skill. Everything is spoon fed and done for you so you don't have to think. Thats why you get these drama queens every month starting up these ''look at me I've changed over to fifa, come and join me'' threads explaining how easier it is to score and how much they love it. The bottom line is these folks don't like to think too much.

They read the ign reviews who every year despite the glaring flaws in the game where they even highlight it themselvs always manage to give it a 9.5. Then these same folks looking to get someone to make a decision for them, then go to their local game and ask the guy behind the desk for his/her opinion and they sheepishly responds that' yeah I heard fifa is the best now and has sold x amount of copies' even though that same person hasnt even played it. And the sheeple then goes ahead and buys it. Or you get these kids who havnt come out of school yet, and the talk in the playground is how everyone plays fifa and they go ahead buy it to fit it like sheep. And then you have the chavs who just enjoy the feel good and abuse factor within the game where you can win on the game without using any initiative and be awarded making them feel special for 20 minutes of their life.

 

[bestpesever]

ii think that people who write to konami must say first what dont remove from this version than what to add,becouse i see next year u dont have gamespeed +2,-2 and game gonna be too fast and they gonna add nets,some shit gonna happen.but what fifa can do?same shit every year.they have same ball control,tackling 5 years,,why to change that when reviews gives scores 9.5.then go kids on youtube and talking how fifa is realistic.come here and see game is shitty.robotic etc

 

[Stormrider]

I don't like Fifa at all either but that was just ouch :laugh:. More or less agree with what Football777 said though except for the tricks part. Yea Fifa tricks have always been way over the top but Pes 2011 dropped the ball a bit this year in this aspect as well. In Pes 2011 Fletcher can also do a ton of roulettes, flip flaps, link feints, you name it. It doesn't stop there either. Fuckin Vidic can pull them off quite consistently as well. I have no clue why Konami felt the need to change the previous system where only certain players can perform certain tricks. At least if they were to allow Vidic and company to perform advanced tricks, the success ratio should be extremely low with something like 9/10 times they'll just shamefully lose the ball.

 

[Sminky]

Konami and EA make their money from the younger gamer playing market, specifically parents buying for their kids. This demographic are not your typical complain on a forum site and give feedback to Konami and EA. Because the core buying public are happy to buy the annually churned out product regardless of quality both companies can continue to rest on their laurels.

Eventually both no doubt will stumble upon on an improved product only for the next gen console to come along and start the whole debacle all over again.

I still think the best way for either company to improve is to be more open to the fans and switch to releasing a PES/FIFA every two years. For now though, It feels a bit lazy and now to the point of wringing out every last bean.

Still, PES2011 was an improvement on PES2010 and PES2012 surely will build on the foundations of PES2011 and iron out some of the bugs.

 

[u1tradt]

If you watched Barca vs Real the other day funnily enough it reminded me of PES 2011...

I felt the same. As a matter of fact, most matches I watch nowadays look a bit like I'm playing Pro. Not in the aesthetic sense as such, but more in the way the players are positioned, the way the game flows and how everything adjusts on the fly.

Villareal vs Dinamo Zagreb yesterday definitely looked like a game of Pro 11. Also I remember a few weeks back when I was playing PES 2011 in as much of my free time as possible, I watched Match of the Day one night (tuned in during a match) and found myself trying to press Y on an imaginary controller before turning to my friend hoping he didn't notice me just doing that.

As for the topic: I agree with next year being a massive opportunity for Konami to really make up lost ground. There's still a fair deal wrong with this game but underneath all the flaws there's a playing system that can serve as a solid foundation for a truly great game next year. Whether Konami deliver next year, we will just have to wait and see. But the opportunity is there for the taking; as long as they iron out the flaws present, enhance certain modes even further (such as ML) and make some additions that will compliment this system even further (rather than detract from it) then watch out EA, I'd say.

 

[Amateur]

I think FIFA12 vs PES12 is going to be more of the same, FIFA will sell more copies, PES will have more depth, etc.

PES11 is a good game for the people who do not really understand where the game needs to change and why it needs to change; Barcelona vs Real Madrid, 5-0: did anyone noticed the HORIZONTAL movement without the ball from Lio Messi?

Messi ran from side to side without the ball, playing the short one twos with Xavi and Iniesta, and moving from left to right or right to left; in PES, you cannot manually dictated HORIZONTAL movement without the ball, you can only pass the ball and tap the R2 button, and this will trigger VERTICAL movement from the player who last passed the ball.

A simple feature, where you pass the ball and then tap the R1 button or another button, and this would trigger HORIZONTAL movement without the ball; would be a massive feature for the people who like intricate and well played Football.

PES11 does not offer that type of control and that type of intricacy, you do not really need to think when you play PES11; in my opinion, I don't like it, I don't see how such a simplistic game can be described as "hardcore", I think it is very outdated and bland and simplistic; PES11 vs FIFA11 is a competition of which game is less bad, as far as I'm concerned.

It has potential but it desperately needs something new and original.

 

[Effington]

As someone who reads the FIFA message boards, has played an extensive amount of FIFA 11, and has recently switched to PES 11, I understand what you're saying. However, the numbers tell a different story.

FIFA 11 absolutely demolished PES 11 in sales this year, and it wasn't close. FIFA 11 more than doubled the sales of PES 11. As Gravy mentioned, PES 11 does win some markets, notably they get the lion share of the Japanese market, but that is not a big slice of the entire pie. For that matter, it's not USA, either. The market you want to win is Europe. Also, winning over the "hardcore" community (those of us who post on message boards/play many hours each week) is not as much of a priority as we'd like to think. The hardcore gamers are a very small percentage of sales. The casual gamer is the cash cow.

Despite the rampant complaining as mentioned in the original post here, FIFA plays fine. My limited online experience was fairly positive, or as positive as an online football game can be. For the casual gamer, the difference between the two games is extensive licensing & advertising. As a USA customer, I've been bombarded by FIFA advertisements, but have only seen one PES commercial, which I believe was the day before its release, and only on Fox Soccer Channel (an exclusive channel). If you don't do research, you wouldn't have known PES existed, and even so, would still pick FIFA. Even if you did your research, you'd probably pick FIFA, based on ratings from online websites. In fact, I was a big fan of FIFA until I hit around season 3 of career mode, when I realized the progression/regression system was garbage, and that no youth players entered the league.

 

[Sminky]

To the above poster, you're right and it pretty much concurs with my other post.

The current demographic coining it for EA is the parent/young teen market. Thats why FIFA will continue to out sell PES - its a glossy product that kids will want bought for them for Christmas.

Until Konami is on a level pegging with FIFA for licensing its hard to see Konami out sell FIFA purely on game play.

 

[bestpesever]

"As a USA customer, I've been bombarded by FIFA advertisements, but have only seen one PES commercial, which I believe was the day before its release, and only on Fox Soccer Channel (an exclusive channel). If you don't do research, you wouldn't have known PES existed, and even so, would still pick FIFA. Even if you did your research, you'd probably pick FIFA, based on ratings from online websites."

and fifa release was 3 weeks before pes with 9.5score,who gonna wait pes.