If Konami Can Implement What Is In The Press Release......

[Tech_Skill]

PES3 was the marquee EVOLUTION moment but PES5 was the series at it's pinnacle imo.

I think pes3 even had the handball rule in it also, i think it might have had an advanced transfer system also but cant remember.

Im not sold on pes 5 yet, funnily enough, i still have a copy might play it later on, right now, i lean towards

iss pro evolution soccer on ps1

and then pes3.

Defining moments which influences football games for years to come.

After that, PES6, because of the R2 curl/place shot, which is now fundamental.

 

[Jess C]

Ah the old handball rule. F*cking annoying it was. Cost me tons of goals because I ran 'too early' to take advantage of a flighted ball, and the computer abused it like nobody's business. For me ISS Pro Evolution 2, PES2, 3 & 5 are critical moments in the game's history.

 

[Ultimate777]

The handball feature worked well and was realistic. The amount of handballs I've seen in 2010 makes me think they should bring it back. How can you expect to have a football game noted for its realism if the all the basic rules are not implemented.

Its little things like that in the gameply plus having to defend properly by marking and anticipating the opposition player withtiming instead of just bashing the x - pressure button that made PES5 so enjoyable

 

[Jess C]

It's not so much a question of 'realism' as opposed to 'game breaking irritant'. Hand balls generally worked by chance on that game and the computer abused it (i.e. referee calling all of yours but ignoring the computer's) badly. I'm an advocate for realism; little touches like players celebrating a goal only for an offside flag to temper their enthusiasm (I think that was introduced PES4) add an extra 'wow' factor to the game, I'm hoping PES 2011 has under armor and I'm still astounded (but not off-puttingly so) how NOBODY in the football gaming industry has noticed that Cristiano Ronaldo, Fernando Torres and David Silva's ankle tape are TWICE as long as everyone else's and actually meet the boot. But there can be such a thing as too much realism. If they found a way for the players actions in a given scenario to hold potential consequences like resulting handballs, e.g. closing down an attacker and having the ball ricochet off your arm when blocking a cross, or something similar that's a result of YOUR ACTIONS and not just chance, then I'd welcome handballs. Until then I think it's best to keep it out.

 

[OCKRASS]

BREAKING NEWS!

From the recent compiled impressions of PES 2011 develop so far .....the game is shit.

All new additions to the game does not work so far. Freedom in passing too sensitive, 360movements only on some players, tricks buggy, animations glitch and most of all nothing works online.

With only 4 months left, we may need 200 more heads added to the already 200 strong blue sky team. The sky does not look too blue right now.

Result......Konami is in deep shit!

Does anyone have a shovel to lend them?

 

[Stormrider]

Really miss the handballs from Pes 3. What's wrong with bringing back handballs but add the option to turn them off? Win win situation if you ask me.

 

[Ultimate777]

It's not so much a question of 'realism' as opposed to 'game breaking irritant'. Hand balls generally worked by chance on that game and the computer abused it (i.e. referee calling all of yours but ignoring the computer's) badly. I'm an advocate for realism; little touches like players celebrating a goal only for an offside flag to temper their enthusiasm (I think that was introduced PES4) add an extra 'wow' factor to the game, I'm hoping PES 2011 has under armor and I'm still astounded (but not off-puttingly so) how NOBODY in the football gaming industry has noticed that Cristiano Ronaldo, Fernando Torres and David Silva's ankle tape are TWICE as long as everyone else's and actually meet the boot. But there can be such a thing as too much realism. If they found a way for the players actions in a given scenario to hold potential consequences like resulting handballs, e.g. closing down an attacker and having the ball ricochet off your arm when blocking a cross, or something similar that's a result of YOUR ACTIONS and not just chance, then I'd welcome handballs. Until then I think it's best to keep it out.

Yeah I think that was the only problem that it wasnt called against the computer when they handballed it but that could have easily been fixed. And also it was never officially mentioned as handball when the foul was called. But how can you compare it to players ankle tape which has all to do with apparences which is irrelevant to how good the game plays?!

Its more apt to compare it to konarmi choosing to obmit offsides just because as you call it to you its an 'game breaking irritant' which at many times I wish they didnt include offisde because they clearly dont understand the rules correctly, at least in 2010. For example in real life a player can be in an offside position but not interfering with play and not be called for offside as long as he doesnt touch the ball. But this is not taken on board in 2010 and there are many times players are incorrectly called offside when they are not interfering witgh play.
But it would be stupid to take offside out because of this because its a vital component to the game otherwise goal hangers would be rewarded.

Now the handball rule is there to protect abusers using their hands to gain advandage otherwise we wouldnt be calling it football but american football. It doesnt have to be done to perfection but they can easily do it like they did with Pes5 while improving the balance. The only concern will be the amount of whistling blowing and interruption because of the increased amount of faulty fouls and offsides that are incorrectly called because konarmi just dont seem to be able get the balance right anymore with the refs.

 

[Jess C]

BREAKING NEWS!

From the recent compiled impressions of PES 2011 develop so far .....the game is shit.

All new additions to the game does not work so far. Freedom in passing too sensitive, 360movements only on some players, tricks buggy, animations glitch and most of all nothing works online.

With only 4 months left, we may need 200 more heads added to the already 200 strong blue sky team. The sky does not look too blue right now.

Result......Konami is in deep shit!

Does anyone have a shovel to lend them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFv3kelbjRk&feature=player_embedded#!

Excellent video.

 

[OCKRASS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFv3kelbjRk&feature=player_embedded#!

Excellent video.

The video and the actual hands on report pale in comparison.
read on.

PSM3 Mag.

How are the physics between player and ball?
Hard to judge. While 30 yard shots ping off your feet satisfyingly (feeling better than FIFA. Still), there were some muddled interactions when the players locked shoulders, and the ball just wobbled in front of them, like it was waiting for the result of the tussle. To stress, this is early code, and it's far too early to judge the physics, which is clearly being tuned. To put is this way, the interaction between player and ball during tricks looks sublime in replays, and bar the obvious glitches,

Have the Goalkeepers been improved in PES 2011, as they have been dreadful since PES 2008?
Quite honestly, the keepers in this early build were slightly mad. While there were noticeably more animations, and more realistic diving, palming saves, they would quite often 'switch off' and let in balls you wouldn't believe (through their legs, for example), or parry balls unrealistically into striker's paths. The ball spilling was so prevalent, and AI so odd, we can only assume this element is far from completion. So no good news - yet.

Eurogamer:-

When it comes to playing the game, the flipside to being treated to an unprecedentedly early showing becomes apparent, with many features yet to be implemented and others not working as they should. The feint system, for example, at present produces looping, sliding animations that are clearly unfinished, and tackling hasn't been fully worked in, making it hard simply to get a foot in.

These aren't criticisms, of course: it's simply not possible to make any meaningful qualitative judgements on such elements at this stage. What is possible with this build is to get a decent feel for the ebb and flow of a game, the new power gauge, redone throw-in system, game speed, passing freedom and so on.

IGN:-
Konami needs to fix the frequent stuttering and freezing, and we don't know if the improved presentation extends to rewarding the player (as FIFA does so well) for securing victory – maybe it's down to the emphasis on authenticity but playing the game feels more like a chore than being genuinely fun. It's perhaps too early to pronounce on whether PES 2011 is going to right every perceived wrong that its predecessor brought, but this year it's clear that Konami has been listening to its legion PES fans and has focused on making the right improvements to the game.

 

[James_dean]

I remember someone at WENB a few weeks ago, think it was Adam, saying that the gamplay of Pes 2011 was near complete
As for myself I dont really worry to much, the game is deffo not complete, alot of things need to be fixed and polished but they have the whole summer to work on the game. I think Pes 2011 looks very promising.

 

[loay]

Is it will be pes 2011 for ps2 ?

 

[Tech_Skill]

I saw that PSM3 Video............... my verdict......

Inconclusive

Once again, not enough gameplay video to make a firm judgement on how good this game is. Listened to the wenb podcast and they were going nuts over this ivory coast kit and to be honest, i couldnt give a fucking shit about some tight skin kit. Having said that I do believe the game is going to take step forwards this year compared to last year, the bit in the video show how each player marks his own bit of space so you dont get games where everyone is rushing for the ball is cool, the formations thingy is cool, but to be honest, i just give a shit about how the fucking game plays, there seems that there is going to be better physical contact between players because the jossling animations looked better, but wether that actually fully translates into the game where individual physical strength stats deterimines who comes off better in a clash for the ball we shall have to see. Its hard to explain, but having an animation for players jossling against each other is one thing, having a system where the fight for the ball is realistic in terms of the individual strength and skill of players coupled with ball physics being a factor in who ends up with possession...is another.

Not sold either way really, waiting to see what fifa come out with, that news is due this coming week, then we find out what konami are up against.

 

[Amateur]

The video and the actual hands on report pale in comparison.
read on.

PSM3 Mag.

How are the physics between player and ball?
Hard to judge. While 30 yard shots ping off your feet satisfyingly (feeling better than FIFA. Still), there were some muddled interactions when the players locked shoulders, and the ball just wobbled in front of them, like it was waiting for the result of the tussle. To stress, this is early code, and it's far too early to judge the physics, which is clearly being tuned. To put is this way, the interaction between player and ball during tricks looks sublime in replays, and bar the obvious glitches,

Have the Goalkeepers been improved in PES 2011, as they have been dreadful since PES 2008?
Quite honestly, the keepers in this early build were slightly mad. While there were noticeably more animations, and more realistic diving, palming saves, they would quite often 'switch off' and let in balls you wouldn't believe (through their legs, for example), or parry balls unrealistically into striker's paths. The ball spilling was so prevalent, and AI so odd, we can only assume this element is far from completion. So no good news - yet.

Eurogamer:-

When it comes to playing the game, the flipside to being treated to an unprecedentedly early showing becomes apparent, with many features yet to be implemented and others not working as they should. The feint system, for example, at present produces looping, sliding animations that are clearly unfinished, and tackling hasn't been fully worked in, making it hard simply to get a foot in.

These aren't criticisms, of course: it's simply not possible to make any meaningful qualitative judgements on such elements at this stage. What is possible with this build is to get a decent feel for the ebb and flow of a game, the new power gauge, redone throw-in system, game speed, passing freedom and so on.

IGN:-
Konami needs to fix the frequent stuttering and freezing, and we don't know if the improved presentation extends to rewarding the player (as FIFA does so well) for securing victory – maybe it's down to the emphasis on authenticity but playing the game feels more like a chore than being genuinely fun. It's perhaps too early to pronounce on whether PES 2011 is going to right every perceived wrong that its predecessor brought, but this year it's clear that Konami has been listening to its legion PES fans and has focused on making the right improvements to the game.

I don't like your negative approach towards everything, but still, I would have to agree with you on this one...

Konami was saying wonders about PES 2011, a lot of fan-boys claiming PES 2011 had already been completed -- turns out the game is very far from finished...

As for the articles,

I think the best one was the one from Eurogamer.

And I must point out that the IGN article was a very poor effort, it sounds like a bunch of biased FIFA-fans wrote the article; very weak, specially the line that says: "playing the game feels more like a chore than being genuinely fun"

Talking or discussing about PES is a little puzzling for me, because people talk about PES as if it was in decline... when the truth is, at least in my opinion, that PES 2010 is the best version to date; definitely better than any of the PS2 versions.

It's like a lot of people are pissed off because the game is better now... that's one thing that I really don't understand very well.

 

[OCKRASS]

I don't like your negative approach towards everything, but still, I would have to agree with you on this one...

Konami was saying wonders about PES 2011, a lot of fan-boys claiming PES 2011 had already been completed -- turns out the game is very far from finished...

As for the articles,

I think the best one was the one from Eurogamer.

And I must point out that the IGN article was a very poor effort, it sounds like a bunch of biased FIFA-fans wrote the article; very weak, specially the line that says: "playing the game feels more like a chore than being genuinely fun"

Talking or discussing about PES is a little puzzling for me, because people talk about PES as if it was in decline... when the truth is, at least in my opinion, that PES 2010 is the best version to date; definitely better than any of the PS2 versions.

It's like a lot of people are pissed off because the game is better now... that's one thing that I really don't understand very well.

Sup Amatuer,

My attitude towards PES just turned negative this year after three years of lies and empty promises ....can you blame me

People in general are not pissed because the game is better, we are pissed because we have been promised a better game three years in a row and that has not happened....yet.

This year looks promising....but as Tech_Skill said, it is way too early to make any judgements. Even yet, i will not trust anything they say or do until the game is released and played for at least three months before even considering to buy. I won't be fooled again. :angry:

 

[Amateur]

Sup Amatuer,

My attitude towards PES just turned negative this year after three years of lies and empty promises ....can you blame me

People in general are not pissed because the game is better, we are pissed because we have been promised a better game three years in a row and that has not happened....yet.

This year looks promising....but as Tech_Skill said, it is way too early to make any judgements. Even yet, i will not trust anything they say or do until the game is released and played for at least three months before even considering to buy. I won't be fooled again. :angry:

I don't blame you for your negative approach, I guess my point is that I don't really understand a lot of the disappointment...

On one side, I do think PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are very outdated games that do not offer anything truly new.

But on the other hand, I don't see anyone asking for something different... People have complained about the animations and feel of the game, the on-rails passing, that's a valid complain.

But even if the animations where perfect, and passing was perfect; the game would still be the same at its core... so it really makes no significant difference.

So like you, I'm also disappointed with some things; but at the same time, I also know that the game will never improve much more if the 10 Minute Concept is not replaced. I mean, how much substance can you fit into a 10 minute game?

I have no doubts that PES 2011 will be a decent 10 Minute Simulation, but unfortunately for me, 10 Minute Sims are not that fun anymore... It's like the original ambition of PES never really evolved whereas my expectations have evolved with each passing year; thus I am no longer entertained by 10 Minute "pin-ball" Simulations.

But what I mean about PES is that, I just don't understand why so many people are complaining... whilst at the same time praising FIFA 2010 as a good game -- I don't get it,

Once the animations are fluid people will love PES like they did in the PS2 days; and the funny thing is that the animations are just visuals, it's nothing revolutionary as can be appreciated when playing FIFA 2010 -- great animations, same old pin-ball game at its core.

 

[Ultimate777]

Konami was saying wonders about PES 2011, a lot of fan-boys claiming PES 2011 had already been completed -- turns out the game is very far from finished....

The game does look unfinished and many fans are claiming its the completed version, I admit I have no idea if thats true, I think many are saying its complted based on what Adam from WENB said. I hope konami polish it up and work on the already evident glitches and flaws in animations which have already been exposed.

But this is what happened last year when they released the demo of the PES2010, there were so many bugs we were told its the not completed product and yet all the issues where left in the game on final release. Its June now ,they have roughly 3months to fix the issues in PES2011. Thats not a lot of time and going by konamis reputation they wont make these fixes

And I must point out that the IGN article was a very poor effort, it sounds like a bunch of biased FIFA-fans wrote the article; very weak, specially the line that says: "playing the game feels more like a chore than being genuinely fun"

Just because you dont like the review from IGN who btw usually are gracious towards the pes series and give it high scores, you choose to qoute one line out of the article and attribute it to biased fifa fans. I kind of believe them if they say the game is more of a chore than fun, because that exactly sums up how 2010 is - a bloody chore to play with most of the fun sucked out of it. And from the looks of things PES11 doesnt look that much different

Talking or discussing about PES is a little puzzling for me, because people talk about PES as if it was in decline... when the truth is, at least in my opinion, that PES 2010 is the best version to date; definitely better than any of the PS2 versions..

Well you must be a simpleton then if criticism towards PES is puzzling to you because the game since its transition to PS3 has been stagnating and last year when 2010 was released it took a step backwards in its development with konami releasing an unfinished product with a whole load of bugs that only a select few such as yourself could not notice. The game is far from the best of the series, Its no doubt one of the worst PES released with 2008 next to it and doesnt touch any of the PS2 predecessors which made improvement year after year without taking useful things out of the game. You berate fifa for its pin ball core base however PES is following in its footsteps. If you havnt already noticed PES already has the same feature ping pong on rail passing through the AI

It's like a lot of people are pissed off because the game is better now... that's one thing that I really don't understand very well.

You're boardering on the moronic here. Why would people be pissed off if the game was becoming better now? Try and think about that one.

 

[Amateur]

The game does look unfinished and many fans are claiming its the completed version, I admit I have no idea if thats true, I think many are saying its complted based on what Adam from WENB said. I hope konami polish it up and work on the already evident glitches and flaws in animations which have already been exposed.

But this is what happened last year when they released the demo of the PES2010, there were so many bugs we were told its the not completed product and yet all the issues where left in the game on final release. Its June now ,they have roughly 3months to fix the issues in PES2011. Thats not a lot of time and going by konamis reputation they wont make these fixes



Just because you dont like the review from IGN who btw usually are gracious towards the pes series and give it high scores, you choose to qoute one line out of the article and attribute it to biased fifa fans. I kind of believe them if they say the game is more of a chore than fun, because that exactly sums up how 2010 is - a bloody chore to play with most of the fun sucked out of it. And from the looks of things PES11 doesnt look that much different



Well you must be a simpleton then if criticism towards PES is puzzling to you because the game since its transition to PS3 has been stagnating and last year when 2010 was released it took a step backwards in its development with konami releasing an unfinished product with a whole load of bugs that only a select few such as yourself could not notice. The game is far from the best of the series, Its no doubt one of the worst PES released with 2008 next to it and doesnt touch any of the PS2 predecessors which made improvement year after year without taking useful things out of the game. You berate fifa for its pin ball core base however PES is following in its footsteps. If you havnt already noticed PES already has the same feature ping pong on rail passing through the AI



You're boardering on the moronic here. Why would people be pissed off if the game was becoming better now? Try and think about that one.

How can I answer such a disgusting choice of words...

Well, for starters -- "THINK" -- that's a key word here, if you actually used your head before writting that load of rubbish -- you would not be asking yourself such stupid questions.

I'll be as brief as possible. Yes, a lot of people are pissed off because PES actually improved.

Why?

A lot of reasons, one of the reasons is because they are disappointed by the fact that it is not PES6 with High Def Graphics...

I also happen to think that your idea of "fun" is very boring and monotonous, if you think playing PES 2010 feels like a chore... Is FIFA 2010 fun? Is PES6 fun? What exactly is fun?

And overall, I think you are plain moronic, the way you express your OPINION is very childish; you may think that PES 2010 is one of the worst of the series -- but that's just your opinion,

My opinion is very simple, PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are OUTDATED games, I don't care about which one is less bad, both games are very disappointing in my book.

 

[Ultimate777]

How can I answer such a disgusting choice of words...

Well, for starters -- "THINK" -- that's a key word here, if you actually used your head before writting that load of rubbish -- you would not be asking yourself such stupid questions.

I'll be as brief as possible. Yes, a lot of people are pissed off because PES actually improved.

Why?

A lot of reasons, one of the reasons is because they are disappointed by the fact that it is not PES6 with High Def Graphics...

I also happen to think that your idea of "fun" is very boring and monotonous, if you think playing PES 2010 feels like a chore... Is FIFA 2010 fun? Is PES6 fun? What exactly is fun?

And overall, I think you are plain moronic, the way you express your OPINION is very childish; you may think that PES 2010 is one of the worst of the series -- but that's just your opinion,

My opinion is very simple, PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are OUTDATED games, I don't care about which one is less bad, both games are very disappointing in my book.

You say there is a lot of reasons yet you only come up with one nonsensical conclusion that people are pissed off that its improved because its not PES6 with updated graphics. What a load of bollox and you have the cheek to call me moronic.

The majority of the PES fans I've spoken to in depth want the game to evolve, not be carbon copies with the company exploiting the fans using the same engine base system every year. That means we'd like non linear gameplay, which gives the user freedom of movement along with ball physics which allow you to plant the ball in which every direction you choose. If you havnt notice the gameplay has become incredibily scripted and predicatable. Now the many reasons why people are pissed off is because the series have only made miniature strides at improving the game mainly in the presentation department while there are left countless issues which need to be addressed which only get overlooked and become worse off each year. I'll simplify things for you so your infantile mind which obviously fails to comphrehend much can finally see and understand why many people are pissed off with the series.

poor AI system - Delayed response issues and unintelligent attack and defense AI

Automatic Passing - Too arcadey in place of real stimulation resulting in in every pass feeling rigid unnatural and accurate, every pass goes exactly where the players its. In short, long and short passing are unreal always pinpoint

POOR collision system - Do I really have to explain this to you?

frustrating referees poor decisions not knowning when to call a foul and what isnt a foul

game speed is too fast - Leading to unreal ping pong passing

Goalkeepers - Constantly fumbling the ball and making stupid mistakes too many to be interpreted as realistic mistakes

No true 360 movement that konami lied that was to be implemented for pes10 though many like yourself seem to have forgotten

Poor and unrealistic robotic and rigid on rails animation along with stuttering players

Deterioration of commenatary which has become monotone and forced

Online mode interruptions and delayed response

Edit mode options taken out

Predictable gameplay

The list goes on and on... its boring but I thought I highlight some of those obvious flaws because you seem to have it in your head that people are upset purely because its not PES6. We can even do a poll if you like? But I know I'll be proven right

My idea of fun is a playable but unpredictable game that gives you a real sense of its highs and lows in comparison to the real game. While giving you the freedom of movement and variety to score a whole wide range of different kind of goals. Not be restricted to scripted AI that suffocates you to rail like passing and shooting.

As for your last point you've completely managed to contradict yourself ( hopefully thats not too much of a 'disgusting word' for you to understand). You've now switched from saying that PES 2010 is the best version to date'' and how you cannot understand why people have a problem with it to now saying its ''Outdated and disappointing in your book''. How does that make sense praytell? or is logic and simple reasoning not included in your book?

 

[Jonny16]

What PES really needs is a slightly different approach to football.

For example, NFL is the American Football game made by EA and has been the choice game for that sport since time began.

However, NaturalMotion have only gone and released Backbreaker, a slightly different take on the sport but is a WHOLE lot better, play the demo just to see. Coupled with the Euphoria engine, you get an experience which is never the same twice.

To (back)break the rigid mould of PES, that would be it

 

[Tech_Skill]

So like you, I'm also disappointed with some things; but at the same time, I also know that the game will never improve much more if the 10 Minute Concept is not replaced. I mean, how much substance can you fit into a 10 minute game?

I have no doubts that PES 2011 will be a decent 10 Minute Simulation, but unfortunately for me, 10 Minute Sims are not that fun anymore... It's like the original ambition of PES never really evolved whereas my expectations have evolved with each passing year; thus I am no longer entertained by 10 Minute "pin-ball" Simulations.
Once the animations are fluid people will love PES like they did in the PS2 days; and the funny thing is that the animations are just visuals, it's nothing revolutionary as can be appreciated when playing FIFA 2010 -- great animations, same old pin-ball game at its core.

Some interesting points made here.

Im not sure today's football games are designed to be played for long periods such as 45 min halves for example. The reason i say that is, i wonder if there are enough variables in the modern video games of today.

- The CPU AI attacks are repeatative
- Not enough player individuality in either game (fifa's is shit and pes's is overrated)
- Assisted passing = no skill required, every players can ping it like barca. Ive started playing manual on fifa (apart from using semi shooting) and i think assisted passing should be outlawed, which is why I was disappointed to see pes 2011 intergate the manual option by holding one of the shoulder buttons, rather than making the whole game manual.
- Do the ball physics need to be improved even further?? you never get the feeling in these game that the ball can go anywhere at anytime. When you watch serie A (proper football, not kick and rush premiership football where most teams cant even string a 3 pass move) and Wesley Sneijder (the king) steps up to take a set piece you sit there with anticipation because when he shoots, that ball could hit anyone and do anything, which could possibly lead to a goal.

I doubt there are enough variables in these games to make them that interesting for that long over the course of a season, but it depends on the individual playing also.

The game does look unfinished and many fans are claiming its the completed version, I admit I have no idea if thats true, I think many are saying its complted based on what Adam from WENB said. I hope konami polish it up and work on the already evident glitches and flaws in animations which have already been exposed.

But this is what happened last year when they released the demo of the PES2010, there were so many bugs we were told its the not completed product and yet all the issues where left in the game on final release. Its June now ,they have roughly 3months to fix the issues in PES2011.

Now Im not a game developer, but this idea konami have 3 months to make major improvements in this game just doesnt wash with me. I'm no expert but im sure the game has to be sumbitted for QA and sales and marketing procedures before the game gets released, so this idea that konami have loads of time to keep developing isnt as strong as people think, which is probably why, when you look at the last few games konami have released, what you see before release, it usually what you get on release.

My opinion is very simple, PES 2010 and FIFA 2010 are OUTDATED games, I don't care about which one is less bad, both games are very disappointing in my book.

In some respects fifa is not outdated, full manual, set piece creator and 360 degree control have been lacking in past games (and before anyone starts, no perfect striker did not have the degree of control fifa offers you). However i would say both games are short of innvovation because the people making the games probably dont understand football the same way fans do.