My HUGE PES2012 v FIFA12 analysis

[hawkeye76]

My point is don't... blame fifa for its finesse. For the record here is why Fifa is the best game on the market.

1. Best animations ever
2. Best Gameplay ever
3. Best Tricks ever
4. Best Celebrations ever
5. Best variety of formations ever

I dont really care if anyone doesnt like to do tricks to beat defenders ....but i do. It is fun and more realistic than just barging through defenders like idiots (PES). I will say this till I die...PES is garbage compared to Fifa where realism is concerned.

NOT ONE PES PLAYER CAN JUGGLE A BALL!:w00t
where is the realism?

1.probably true, but not that bothered.
2.very much disagree
3.Possibly, although Pes has quite a few in there. Plus I don't care.
4.I pay no attention to celebrations. Pes makes you happier when you score, so its quite likely you are celebrating too much in real life to get your little fake footballer to do a back flip.
5.Questionable seeing as you can drag and drop anywhere in PES.

I very much disagree with the realism statement. I think realism to you is freedom and look. Freedom to do more things even if you wouldn't actually see them in real life 99.9% of games. Although I would add, you might have the choice to juggle a ball, but you can't do other things like handball, elbow, push the ref over, get in a fight, kungfoo kick a supporter etc etc etc so theres a lot more that FIFA need to add for true 'realism'.

Juggling the ball during a football game! Happens all the time doesn't it?

The issue is not that people are saying they prefer FIFA, its with not admitting why they like it and then attacking someone who prefers PES. It might be a bit quick, have dodgy animations, no licences, inconsistent passing power bars, cpu interference, no celebrations, less tricks, overly scripted, no 'turn off replays' option, no manual cursor change, problems online etc etc but the core part, making the game feel organic, human like, with realistic teamwork, individuality and varied play, PES is the best. Not to say its perfect, or anywhere near. But it is better and more lifelike than the robotic, monotonous FIFA AI.

I have no problem with FIFA, other than the fact its not the game for me. Which was more of a problem in previous years, as I also wasn't too keen on Konami's efforts, so had no decent football game to keep me hooked.

FIFA plays a more hollywood style game. Which is fine, if thats what you like.

 

[baangus]

"Do I have to write them off Baangus?'

No man, you can hold it against me like my ex-wife did until she became a miserable, bitter harpy. Your choice.

 

[baangus]

"FIFA plays a more hollywood style game. Which is fine, if thats what you like.'

The crazy insane running back and forth and up and down the pitch that is PES doesn't remind you of the Keystone Cops? That was Hollywood too you know.

 

[techboy11]

"Do I have to write them off Baangus?'

No man, you can hold it against me like my ex-wife did until she became a miserable, bitter harpy. Your choice.

I did lol.

I'd give you a rep point for that if I could.

 

[hawkeye76]

"FIFA plays a more hollywood style game. Which is fine, if thats what you like.'

The crazy insane running back and forth and up and down the pitch that is PES doesn't remind you of the Keystone Cops? That was Hollywood too you know.

Hollywood:
In terms of glitz and glamour. Over emphasising the fancier parts of football. As a blockbuster film would. Brilliant showmanship, but lacking in depth.

PES needs a better stamina system, as mentioned before, but large parts of real games are end to end run fests. I don't find that particularly unrealistic, maybe a bit too relentless. As I said, its in no way perfect.

The general scores for PES are about 7/10, which is fine, as there are many areas that could do with some work, but I would also give FIFA no more than PES. It might get more right, but it gets the main bit wrong. 9s and 10s for FIFA are frankly ridiculous.

 

[ilyasmad]

Football is an incredible 90 minute game. FIFA and Konami are basically trying putting different elements of the 90 minute games and try to squeeze it into 10-20 minutes. It just came to me, what exactly do i want from that 90 minutes, into a 10-20 minute video game. Bare in mind that some things, is simply impossible to put everything inside a game. I mean i don't think its possible to make a sim.

What exactly do you all want?

I really don't know if i would enjoy a game created exactly what i thought that should be put in.

Maybe pes just places emphasis on the exciting and quick bits of the football, of course a little with all the realistic elements, like building up the attack, midfield battle etc.

While FIFA, places emphasis on how the majority of the game is played, causing it to feel repetetive and boring, but sometimes have quite a few suprising and exciting moments.

 

[techboy11]

Football is an incredible 90 minute game. FIFA and Konami are basically trying putting different elements of the 90 minute games and try to squeeze it into 10-20 minutes. It just came to me, what exactly do i want from that 90 minutes, into a 10-20 minute video game.

What exactly do you all want?

I really don't know if i would enjoy a game created exactly what i thought that should be put in. I personally think that's the problem.

Exactly, that's why it is about balance for me.

Most games IRL are slow when the defending team has the ball and is passing it about their own third of the pitch, teams are reluctant to pressure, the defensive team has ALL the time in the world. Three things generally happen then - 1) the defenders in their own third continue to pass the ball around the back, the attackers don't press continue to hold their shape and there is a stale mate; 2) The attackers press the defenders who then are forced to play the ball back to the keeper who clears up the pitch starting off a move after an aerial confrontation; 3) The defenders who have possession deep in their half draw the attackers in as the attackers try and press but the team in possession finds a way through to the midfield and a move starts there.

SO, generally speaking when defenders have the ball and are passing it between the back four the game is slow and dull BUT, as soon as that ball goes through the midfield area it is all action, and the pace picks up. When teams counter they are lightning.

Now the problem is in real football, is that a large proportion of the game is spent between the two defensive sides passing the ball about the back four. Another slice of the game is taken up by free kicks and set pieces and a further slice is taken up by injuries and general ball out of play.

So what you have is even less time of actual action.

So when people go on about PES being slightly fast or whatever then of course it is going to be faster on average than a normal game's average speed, no game can possibly match the way an actual match unfolds 100% because we are trying to fit 90 minute action into 10,15,20 minutes.

I have settled on a gamespeed which is now slightly slower than the original things I posted, but it still isn't slow by any means.

I mean if we are replicating football 100% then most of us would never get out of our own halves. For example, why do you think that defenders pass the ball about the defence endlessly, for their own health. No it's because the risk of losing possession by passing the ball into midfield is tremendous. So they wait, and wait and wait until something opens up or the other team forces them into a back pass. But would the majority of gamers put up with that. Would they have the patience?!?

 

[Rasmus]

Holy shite you're a beast at defending Techboy. Watched some of the videos and i must say that's some decent defending from your side.

 

[techboy11]

Just tons of games my friend, a respect for the CPU attackers, and some real life knowledge of when to press and when to contain.

I still get my arse handed to me on a plate every now and again though, like when Chelsea demolished me 5-1 last week at the Bridge!

 

[fick]

"Weird having to agree with you ...but you make sense"

Just write off the past couple of weeks as me being a judgmental prick. Not so weird after that.

You are right.....the same goes for me being an arse.

peace

Guys, I have to applaud you both. This thread is exactly the sort of thing we love to see. Intelligent discussion, a proper debate and some hilarious self-deprecation to boot :laugh:

Well played guys and keep up the good work

 

[Sminky]

Nice to see some rapier like wit in here ... sorry I don't mean you sausage.

 

[chickenzip]

And I'll say it again: PES' gameplay looks completely unrealistic. The game moves way WAY too fast. Players do not run full speed up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, that's just so ridiculous. To me it's laughable and bizarre Konami released the game in that condition, and speaks to their general inability to guage what's actually needed to fix their game. FIFA completely demolishes PES in that area this year. Sure, the default FIFA gameplay might play like shit, but they have the pace correct and it at least LOOKS like football, ha!

U called that realistic? Where the hell you will find all players run the field up and down the entire field for full 90 mins?:innocent:

 

[Luisao82]

Techboy, sturridge used stepovers and body feints and so did Castro and even ballack did a small nutmeg.
Also Drogba's goal which he scored with his left foot came from a small skill.

Did you see Kevin Prince Boateng's goal against Barcelona? Now that, you can't be able to score on PES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evgtinV2VTE

Who said that those tricks can't be done in PES?
I have a friend who does them quite often, he's probably the best dribbler I've played against in any soccer sim.
And one of the things we both like in PES is that it is clearly harder to dribble/perform tricks, unlike FIFA where without much training we afford to dribble 2-3 adversaries anywhere in the field, with any player, with disapointingly ease.
Anyway, last week he scored a wonderful goal against me (PES 2012). Using stepovers, and then flicking the ball away, he completely fooled 2 of my defenders.

But you are missing the point.
What Techboy, me and the others are saying is that in general, soccer IRL is MUCH MORE about teamplay, intelligent moves, etc.. than it is fancy tricks. Actually, fancy tricks are a rarity in most real life games, and that's a fact!

But because FIFA players are so used to OVERRATED tricks, it's obvious that they won't like a game where they have to put more effort to perform them, and will find it unrealistic because of that.
But fact is: they just don't want to strive more than they do in FIFA to perform tricks and some other things, for them it's good that way and anything harder will be either unrealistic or uninteresting.


SO it all comes down to what I said before: it's a matter of taste. But plz, don't come to me with that BS that FIFA is more realistic than PES, using those weak, erroneous and quite contradictory arguments.

 

[abu97]

A lot of teams actually rely on magic from a player - like lower-league teams.
One example is Lille - whenever they want someone to create something, they rely on Hazard to create it. When QPR were in the championship, they relied on taarabt's dribbling and crossing to gget in. Sure there was teamplay, but they still rely on a player abilities. PES does play more like a sim on the right speed settings I agree, but that is because they took a different side of the beautiful game to make it a sim.

This is a quote from seabass
'I played FIFA 12 at GamesCom and the game seemed very explorative of certain aspects of modern football, as the positioning. It was something we tried to do, but we decided to implement the concepts of positioning. Artificial Intelligence causes many problems for the player. That's why we decided not to implement something similar and followed a different path'

 

[Luisao82]

Again, you're missing the point.
I'm not denying that some players rely quite often on tricks. I'm just arguing that, IRL (even for the examples you gave), what we see MUCH more often is teamplay, simple passes/moves/dribbles.
And that is more well represented in PES than it is in FIFA>

As for Hazard, I personally don't even need a player so skilful (in PES) to perform some tricks. Even with Marveaux (Newcastle) I'm able to, now and then be successful using some trickery.

As for Seabass, he is clearly being diplomatic. Of course, there are things in FIFA AI that can be better compared to PES. But there are also things in PES AI that FIFA still can't recreate. But he just preferred not to talk about it.

 

[Chimps]

This. Slows down the game tremendously.

I would also like to see konami tweak the stats like what chimps did. Star players are overpowered, and poor players' response and teamwork stat are way too poor.

One more thing is to tweak the AI so that the AI would actually take one or more touches with the ball after a pass.

Instead of the AI trying to take on your player if there is no support, make the AI pass back and start building it up again. Of course i do not want them to remove 'take on defender' moments all together, but instead decrease the frequency of that happening. Lastly, only skilled dribblers should attempt trying to take on a player.

I totally agree with there points. They need to pass the ball around much more and having played a lot more I am now getting sick of players trying to beat 3 players in a row from the half way line.

It isn't realistic and ends up with 1 player with 3 defenders running around him, which looks even less realistic.

 

[Rasmus]

Just tons of games my friend, a respect for the CPU attackers, and some real life knowledge of when to press and when to contain.

I still get my arse handed to me on a plate every now and again though, like when Chelsea demolished me 5-1 last week at the Bridge!

Yeah actually i'm getting there myself. (superstar difficulty) Finally i realized when to release R2 and execute the tackle without ending up giving away a free kick on the edge of the penalty area.
I'm conceeding less goals now. The other day i was struggling against Szelawce who are 16th in the league, and today i won against Ajax and Sevilla in Europa League. Funny how quickly things change

 

[Luisao82]

I'll copy/paste a comment I left in the other thread (about defending):


first of all I never use R2 to defend.

70% of times I defend by combining the 'Call Teammate' bottom (Circle, for me) with the 'Apply Pressure/Conservative Tackle' bottom (X).
I ALWAYS use Circle ('Call Teammate' bottom), while I'm controlling other player - sometimes I pressure and try to approach the attacker, other times I just jockey, and only when the time is right I use X (or Circle + X).
And sometimes, I don't even need to, as my defenders will take the ball just by pressuring the attacker.

And with enough pratice, I learned when to keep pressuring with the same player (always calling a teammate to help), and when to change to another player and restart the process.

I also use slide tackles quite a bit, specially when I feel my defence is well guarded in case my tackler fails to disarm the attacker... or when there's nothing else I can do, lol.
Practice, Timing and Concentration is all that is required.

 

[abu97]

I'll copy/paste a comment I left in the other thread (about defending):


first of all I never use R2 to defend.

70% of times I defend by combining the 'Call Teammate' bottom (Circle, for me) with the 'Apply Pressure/Conservative Tackle' bottom (X).
I ALWAYS use Circle ('Call Teammate' bottom), while I'm controlling other player - sometimes I pressure and try to approach the attacker, other times I just jockey, and only when the time is right I use X (or Circle + X).
And sometimes, I don't even need to, as my defenders will take the ball just by pressuring the attacker.

And with enough pratice, I learned when to keep pressuring with the same player (always calling a teammate to help), and when to change to another player and restart the process.

I also use slide tackles quite a bit, specially when I feel my defence is well guarded in case my tackler fails to disarm the attacker... or when there's nothing else I can do, lol.
Practice, Timing and Concentration is all that is required.

I press R2 with those buttons as it is more effective. However I never use r2 and x as that is ridiculous and doesn't help you. calling another teammate while holding up play is very effective however the cpu controls your positioning but atleast I don't find it hard to defend anymore

 

[techboy11]

This is why I find PES more rewarding this year than any other PES or footy title before it.

I've touched upon the attacking AI loads, I think it's excellent.

But what sets this game apart more than anything is the defensive game, which I probably honestly enjoy more than anything. And I enjoy it more than anything because I implement real life positioning, jockeying, tackling etc etc. There's nothing more satisfying for me than controlling the game with great player positioning and defence. Even when the CPU is around my area I now have confidence in my defence and player positioning.

Now goals are obviously scored against me, I'm not a robot, and if the CPU didn't score where would be the fun in that. But what I mean is that I believe the game is fair, the CPU stands just as much chance as me of jockeying and containing, and has the same chance of scoring goals in attack. Every thing is on an even keel.

The same principles of defending and attacking can be used for both the human and the CPU.

Now defence can be breached, that's life, but defences are breached realistically, it's not like PES2011 for example, where you'd be three nil up from the first Europa Leg and the CPU will score three headed goals from corners and two through balls which go through the defenders, it's not like that at all.

All teams will produce some good moves, so you have to be wary. And goals can generally be traced to something that you did down the line - ie you were pressing late for a winner, you just lost out on that 55-45 ball which you should have jockeyed and they broke and eventually scored. Or another example would be meeting their attacker with one of your defenders when you should have conceded ground and ushered him away from danger, and waited for backup. Then of course you have natural 'other things' that no end of defensive work can cater for, like free kicks/corners/or when the CPU does something 'out of the box' and you have to react to something new which you didn't plan for. You rely on gamers instinct then.

But it's all there peeps. What makes this excellent is that every situation requires a response from the user and in that situation you have the ability to press/contain, but get it wrong and the CPU will undo you.

For example Chelsea were passing the ball around the back the other day, and through positioning alone I manufactured a position on the field where I made the CB pass it to the LB, but I also managed through defensive patterns to get control of my right winger put the LB under pressure, tackle him and almost score from it. This situation was made possible by the previous 10 seconds of hard work positioning defensively.

But another scenario is where I tried the same type of thing (in a slightly different context) against Evra, who had slightly more time on the ball. Because he had that second or two longer, and I hadn't FULLY manufactured a situation which I was in TOTAL control of, I pressed rather foolishly, he passed into midfield executing a one two, but I also foolishly pressed Carrick in midfield who simply gave the one two back to Evra - the result two players of mine out of the game, two players of Man Utd in the game. Now this is where the game is brilliant. Now normally in computer games you wouldn't think twice about this happening, but in this years PES I knew then, when they were on the halfway line, that I was in trouble, even with many Liverpool players behind the ball. I then HAD to drop off in midfield giving Man Utd free reign for about twenty or thirty yards, where they put me under pressure and almost scored.

Now the point is, is that this is a wonderful trade off. You can press or contain, but beware of the consequences of both. But it's up to the individual user to assess each situation and act accordingly. When I'm on the front foot in a game and I have a lot of possession, a few shots in a segment of the game, I feel I can press and harass and put pressure on the CPU, you have to dominate these exchanges. But conversely, when the CPU have their purple patch, respect that you need to defend well, see out the danger and get some possession back.