Amateur, thanks for replying, I understand what you are saying, and about the chess analogy, even tho I disagree I can completely understand your judging philosophy of video games.
This is also a good point when judging video games
- What makes a good video game?
1.
Enjoyablity (I personally cant enjoy World of Warcraft or The Sims)
2.
How long the game lasts (If you can complete the game quick people dont like it (Modern Warefare 2 Campaign mode, Kane and lynch 2)
3. Just because a game in newer does not make it a better game, for example, Look at the Sonich the Hedgehog games, Why have they failed, becuase they changed too much about the game, why do film sequels generally suck? cuz they change too much. Look at Terminator 1, then they improved it with terminator 2, then terminator 3 came out and everyone (in my experience) thought it was shit.
Newer version = dosnt mean its better
Too many chnages = danger of becoming 'shit'
DOnt get me wrong, im all up for trying new things and improving the game, but in my opinion Konami and Seasbass's team have forggotten what made pro evo in the first place. Me and my friends didnt care about the cheap commentating or that FIFA had better graphics, we just loved the gamplay, which what it comes down to at the end of the day.
Changed penalties
Lost ability search filter in master league
Lost player attributes to be viewed on 1 page in the formations section
Tilt on camera angle for the 1st time ever.
These are some of the chnages that have been made with pro evo recently that I really think changes what pro evo is all about.
When your making a sequel to a video game, as the developers you are trying to obviously improve the game, the more you attempt to change - the more chance their is of changing pro evo too what its not!
I would love to ask Seabass why he chnaged the penalty system, cuz everyone I know says it was better before, but when I email them, I dont get a reply, This makes me think that Konami dont care about us, the fans what we think, I know that Football Manager really care about what their fans think and they take suggestions on board.
Im gonna go play Master League on 2010 now, check out a guy called ILUCZINCA, he is an animal that can literally play ANYWHERE, I play him in the middle of the pitch CM, Im thinking about making a new thread on pure master league, I will let you know when its up!
Amateur, again I dont agree with your philosophy but I understand why you think that, thnaks for sharing it with me.
Yeah but you are overlooking the importance of structure and substance, and above all, the importance of replay value.
Believe me when I say, that I used to enjoy PES5 and PES6 very much.
However, as the years go by, you start to notice that games like PES5 and PES6 are not as good as you remember: scripted, restrictive, monotonous, repetitive, superficial, etc, etc.
A good analogy would be the Toy Story films, when you are 7 years old you play with toys, when you are 14 years old the replay value of toys is not the same anymore.... and you start to move on to new things, new ways of entertainment.
PES5 and PES6 were good 4 or 6 years ago, but not today, it always was and still is a dumb and restrictive concept.
Video games like PES5 and PES6 were full arcade, 8-axis running, 8-axis passing, 8-axis everything: you can see that the 8-axis concept is a consistent factor with games like PES5 and PES6.
The thing that made PES6 good, back in the PS2 days; will not make PES6 good, in the PS3 days. For instance, if I had to rate PES6 today, in accordance to today's standards.... I would give PES6 a 5 out of 10.
When you look at PES11....
You have the same foundation that PES5 and PES6 used, yet, you have an entirely new passing system; as a result, the game is now too easy, because the new passing system is too advanced for the actual game.
Basically, the new passing system is a game-breaker for me, in my opinion, it breaks the game: it is too advanced for the actual game, it does not fit in with the actual game.
PES6 did not have details such as 360-axis passing, even though it was a very scripted video game due to the restrictions of the 8-axis concept: PES6 was more consistent and more structured than PES11.
Unfortunately, what made a PS2 game great, will not necessarily make a PS3 game great: different consoles, different strengths and different weaknesses.
That was the key mistake of Konami, that after making the jump to current gen consoles such as the PS3 Console, they tried to make a PS2 game.... with some new details and touches to add that "next gen" feel to it.
Modern motion capture animations, modern graphics, means that the game will never play and feel like PES5 and PES6.
So the idea of looking back at PES6 is redundant, due to the fact that we have never seen a video game with motion capture and modern graphics.... moving and feeling like an 8-axis video game such as PES6 or PES5.
In addition, the 360-axis running and 360-axis passing will never work, because it will lead to faster and faster game-speed, and as a result, it will be unplayable.
Back in PES6, the movement without the ball was very responsive, the game did what you expected; this happened because the responsive movement without the ball.... compensated for the restrictions of 8-axis passing.
If you add that same responsive movement without the ball, and you add 360-axis passing: the game will become very easy and very predictable....
We have already seen the one-versus-one situations against the goalkeeper in the FIFA games; as a result of having both, responsive movement without the ball, and 360-axis passing.
To prevent that from happening, Konami have stabilized and dumbed down the movement without the ball, to prevent or contain the amount of one-versus-one situations against the goalkeeper.
FIFA11 and PES11 use different methods to hide the core flaws that are inherent to the Famicom Foundation; the difference in feel, is determined by how Konami and EA Sports decide to hide the core flaws.
PES5 and PES6 are not the answer, PES5 and PES6 are the reason for why PES11 and FIFA11 are so outdated: PES5 and PES6 are the play-it-safe card that both Konami and EA Sports, are using in year 2010.
As a result, PES11 and FIFA11 are very easy and insubstantial, because Konami have replaced the 8-axis running for 360-axis running, Konami have replaced the 8-axis passing for 360-axis passing, etc.
Adding directions to a flawed and outdated concept will never actually fix the core flaws of the mentioned concept.
This is why, when you look at
PES6 vs PES11: the left analogue stick functions the same way, the sprint button functions the same way, and the game functions the same way.
The way the left analogue stick functions: can and should change.
It should be impossible to cover spaces of over 50 feet of distance, by simply directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of a sprint button.
Directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of a sprint button, should not affect the direction in which the ball carrier runs with the ball: instead, it should affect the direction in which the ball carrier dribbles with the ball, without affecting the direction in which the ball carrier runs with the ball.
The way the sprint button functions: can and should change.
The sprint button should not be determined by the left analogue stick: the left analogue stick can only affect the direction in which the player runs with the ball, only when the left analogue stick is used with the assistance of a sprint button.
The left analogue stick should never affect the distance covered with the ball: if you release the sprint button, and then you direct the left analogue stick, this should not produce forwards movement....
Instead it should produce on-the-spot movement: movement that affects the direction in which you dribble, the position of the ball in accordance to the body of the ball carrier, but without ever producing automatic forwards movement nor affecting the direction in which the ball carrier runs with the ball.
The way the game functions: can and should change.
The game should revolve around USER dictated circumstances. This was somewhat possible with PES10 (albeit with some restrictions), so not only does it sounds possible in theory, it is in fact possible in PES10.
The fact that is works in a video game that was originally designed to revolve around the idea of COM dictated circumstances; means that it would work even better, in a video game designed to function around the idea of USER dictated circumstances.
That is the key mistake of Konami, since they made the jump, you cannot continue looking at what made you great back in the PS2 days: you have to move on, replace the Famicom Concept, for a new concept that makes appropriate use of the PS3 Console.
You have to take what made PES5 and PES6 good for their time, and you need to break what made PES6 great, because you are now working with an entirely different console that uses different animations and different graphics: the PS3 and 360.
The way the left analogue stick functions: needs to change.
The way the sprint button functions: needs to change.
The way the game functions: needs to change.
Otherwise, Konami and EA Sports can implement a million animations into the game, and the game will still be rubbish, because the game will function the same way PES5 functioned.
There is a fine line between, the USER using the STATS to his advantage, and the STATS actually playing by themselves; PES6 and PES11 cross that line.
The STATS which are attached to the left analogue stick work automatically because the left analogue stick produces automatic movement which cannot be measured: you cannot measure the direction in which you dribble, you cannot disguise your intentions when you dribble with the ball because your intentions are always automatically materializing before your eyes, and you cannot measure the direction and distance when you tackle for the ball.
In other words, ball carrier vs defender scenarios, are determined by STATS that work automatically: it is scripted or pre-determined by the COM.
And the circumstances in which the mentioned STATS are used, are COM dictated circumstances, never actually USER dictated: the COM has full control over the game-speed, and full control over the dots or targets at which the USER passes the ball.
In other words, the COM dictates the circumstances, and the USER reacts to COM dictated circumstances: the USER cannot dictate the circumstances by using the same tools that the COM uses to dictate the script.
Enjoyability, and, how long the game lasts, go hand in hand: the game is no longer enjoyable when the replay value expires after three days of playing the game.
If you continue tweaking the same old game, the core flaws will automatically move from one area to another area; this movement between areas, might be described as an "improvement" by a portion of the fans, whereas another portion of the fans might consider the mentioned "improvement" a step in the wrong direction.
The core flaws are the very same: SCRIPTED or PRE-DETERMINED video games, where we don't have the correct balance between STATS affecting the game and STATS actually playing by themselves.
This is why some people say PES5 was better than PES6, whereas other people say PES6 was better than PES5; this is why some people say that FIFA08 was the best FIFA game, this is why some people say PES11 is the best PES game to date, etc.
Which is also the reason why, feedback will not help matters in any way, because the vast majority of fans have absolutely no idea of how and where the game should improve.
Player switching, better animations, better AI, less scripted gamepay; and we will have a great footie sim -- that's our feedback.
Honestly, I cannot take it seriously, after years of playing the game; nobody bothers questioning the functioning of the left analogue stick, the functioning of the sprint button.
Yet what are the buttons that we use the most when we play PES and FIFA? The left analogue stick and the sprint button.
And how do you make massive changes to how the game plays? By changing how the left analogue stick functions, and how the sprint button functions.
Yet nobody questions why the left analogue stick works the same way it worked 15 years ago; nobody questions why the ball carrier can actually run without the assistance of a running button.
What would happen if you could pass the ball without the assistance of a passing button?
Well, that is what happens when you run with the ball: the ball carrier automatically runs with the ball, without the assistance of a sprint button.
A great restriction, one could even say, that it is the root of the problem.
Bottom Line?
PES5 and PES6 was the worst thing that happened to the Football Genre, because since then, Konami and EA Sports have used PES5 and PES6 as a fail-safe and cheap way of making money on a yearly basis.
Forget about the so-called "changes" or about "changing the game too much" -- and ask yourself one question, what is the difference between PES6 and PES11?
Do not look at the gimmicks, such as the new passing system, new defensive system, motion capture animations, slower reactions; instead, pay attention to the core areas of the game: the functioning of the left analogue stick, the functioning of the sprint button, the functioning of the game.
Facts and reasons, not opinions; regardless of opinion, PES11 is in fact outdated due to perfectly understandable reasons: the left analogue stick works the same way it worked 15 years ago, and the new passing system has exposed the core flaws more than it should have been allowed.
PES10 vs PES11 -- PES10
PES6 vs PES10 -- PES10
That's my opinion, yet I can acknowledge the fact that PES10 is a very outdated video game which was designed to function around the idea of COM dictated circumstances.
