Pes 6.a Bit Of A Let Down??????????

[nick higgins]

THIS THREAD IS ALL MY FAULT.lol

I have been watching this thread grow and grow over the last few months since i posted it. Feel a bit guilty actually cos a lot of ppl have got a bit to wound up about it. Heated debate is one thing but come on guys and gals. No need for a lot of the really nasty stuff thats been posted. Just thought i would give u an update on my progress since my original post. I stand by everything i said in my original post. I have been patient and persisted with the game and have tried to un-learn everything i knew about the game. I have even changed my style of play to see if that works. GUESS WHAT. Made not one shred of difference. Actually realised that having to change so much meant not only did i not enjoy it anymore but that i did not even wanna play the game. RESULT=PES6 is now sitting in my cupboard unplayed since b4 xmas. Roll on PES7 on PES3. on second thoughts dont bother KONAMI. I fucking aint.:realmad:

 

[rob_8P]

I think they need to sort out alot of things in the game, and while ther at it maybe they could include a shooting style in the basic settings.

Power or placement, where u use R2 to over ride this and alterante the style. just like they do at the minute but both ways.

For example players like henry would be placement but holding R2 while u shoot would cause power. And players like adriano would be power by default but holding R2 would place shots instead.

Whatever they do tho they need 2 sort out the shooting

 

[eddablin]

The game auto-runs you along a set path toward the ball a lot of times. Especially when receiving a pass, or sometimes just while chasing loose balls. Or, while waiting for a cross.

Super cancel negates this script. It's tough to use because the script is pretty useful and it's hard to step right on the ball and get a proper first touch while controlling your player freely (get ready to be maddened when the ball bounces off your ankle after super cancelling to receive a pass early).

Anyway there are many uses for it; one example is to cut toward a rolling ball earlier than the script 'plans' on getting it (the script usually acts as if there are no opposition players around you, so if you are running beside your pass, a guy may just walk up and steal it... use cancel to snag it early). Another example and one I use all the time is in the box, for passes or for crosses, same idea: super cancel and rush your guy to where you think you need to be. This takes practice, because you will often overrun the ball, or even run into somebody and cause fouls. It's a ton of fun to use. I am getting pretty good at set pieces, where I can do the cross then quickly select a guy, watch where the ball is going, and super cancel him there and pressing shoot.

Another fun trick is either a loose ball, or a pass to the opposition, or your own pass that's getting intercepted... instead of letting it run you directly at the ball, super cancel around the ball and head straight for where you think the opponent is going to try to control it to. This is great for playing vs people...

R2 alone is a weak cancel btw; it keeps you 'locked on' to the ball but allows you to edge your guy in different directions. For all aerial balls I use this to drag away from or in front of defenses.

Super cancel is also nice for whenever there is a defender between you and the ball, and the script 'thinks' you should be running for it; use super cancel to run AROUND the defender


Using it every 10 seconds was an exaggeration, TBH.

Nicely put. I'd like to add my favourite use of putting the defender onto a different course (not straight towards the ball, but ahead of where the attacker may potentially go next) in order to intercept.

Super Cancel asks the question on why is it neccesary? My answer to this would be that automatic running by players at times makes them a lot more efficient at getting to the ball and is therefore needed. For instance, if you want to do a one touch pass, then when you aim the pass direction the player will wait to reach the ball rather than running in that direction immediately.

The conditions around players (e.g. positions of other players) are unpredictable to you and depend on the other player/computer. So if you predict something that this automated response doesn't pick up, you can use Super Cancel to do what you intend.

(Yeah I'm not an expert, Jeese)

 

[shaft85]

Nicely put. I'd like to add my favourite use of putting the defender onto a different course (not straight towards the ball, but ahead of where the attacker may potentially go next) in order to intercept.

Super Cancel asks the question on why is it neccesary? My answer to this would be that automatic running by players at times makes them a lot more efficient at getting to the ball and is therefore needed. For instance, if you want to do a one touch pass, then when you aim the pass direction the player will wait to reach the ball rather than running in that direction immediately.

The conditions around players (e.g. positions of other players) are unpredictable to you and depend on the other player/computer. So if you predict something that this automated response doesn't pick up, you can use Super Cancel to do what you intend.

(Yeah I'm not an expert, Jeese)

You & Jake must be playing a completely different PES6 to me, i can tell you that much.

 

[Disqo]

LOL @ people actually defending Super Cancel, it is no more than weak programming by Konami, that feature should not be in the game in the first place. Play NBA 2K7, Madden 07 or Tiger Woods golf on PS2 these games give you total freedom of movement, why can't Konami get that aspect right?

 

[Jake Small]

IMO PES (5 at least) is far superior to all of the above mentioned sports games, which I've played (at least in terms of gameplay; the infrastructure / options in Madden are amazing).

Besides, Madden is a terrible example for your point. Madden DOES script players (as do.. probably all sports games?) in the same way PES does. You throw the ball to a receiver, and he is scripted to do his best to catch it. Then you can override his script by doing certain moves. In fact, in Madden, it is largely stupid to even try to take manual control of a receiver.


Think of the scripts in PES games as a kind of 'training wheels'. I reckon if you didn't have it you would absolutely hate the game, because try latching on to balls properly while holding R2 and R1 (or better yet, hey, tape them down... now the game gives you fully free movement ) and see how hard it is to do. The script is extremely helpful and if it pisses you off, hey, what can I say... they gave you the tools to negate it.


Imagine if it WAS totally free movement, and they never scripted your players. What would happen is you'd make a pass, it would switch you to the player receiving it, and then you wouldn't react in time to receive it properly. You'd have to watch how hard the ball was hit, and then attempt to run your player perfectly on to it. God help you if you passed to the wrong player

It makes a lot of sense that the players themselves in the game would be more 'in tune' with each other so that they could receive passes and make moves without you manually controlling all of it. But as a bonus... you can manually control it to your heart's content with super cancel.


There are not many legitimate complaints in this thread, IMO. Then again I haven't played PES6.

 

[shaft85]

Jake, are you on Konami's pay roll ? ... C'mon mate, fess up. lol

Heres another satisfied customer. (perhaps someone should introduce him to the world of super-cancel) ?

http://arsenalnews.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/pro-evolution-soccer-6-just-not-that-good/

 

[Disqo]

IMO PES (5 at least) is far superior to all of the above mentioned sports games, which I've played (at least in terms of gameplay; the infrastructure / options in Madden are amazing).

Besides, Madden is a terrible example for your point. Madden DOES script players (as do.. probably all sports games?) in the same way PES does. You throw the ball to a receiver, and he is scripted to do his best to catch it. Then you can override his script by doing certain moves. In fact, in Madden, it is largely stupid to even try to take manual control of a receiver.


Think of the scripts in PES games as a kind of 'training wheels'. I reckon if you didn't have it you would absolutely hate the game, because try latching on to balls properly while holding R2 and R1 (or better yet, hey, tape them down... now the game gives you fully free movement ) and see how hard it is to do. The script is extremely helpful and if it pisses you off, hey, what can I say... they gave you the tools to negate it.


Imagine if it WAS totally free movement, and they never scripted your players. What would happen is you'd make a pass, it would switch you to the player receiving it, and then you wouldn't react in time to receive it properly. You'd have to watch how hard the ball was hit, and then attempt to run your player perfectly on to it. God help you if you passed to the wrong player

It makes a lot of sense that the players themselves in the game would be more 'in tune' with each other so that they could receive passes and make moves without you manually controlling all of it. But as a bonus... you can manually control it to your heart's content with super cancel.


There are not many legitimate complaints in this thread, IMO. Then again I haven't played PES6.

I see what you are trying to say, but Konami can still resolve this issue, but they chose not too, I and many dispise the fact that you have to press 2 buttons in order to get free movement, yes every game has scripting, but PES 6 is so obvious its unreal, may I ask why you are not playing PES 6? PES 5 was a good game that only needed just a few tweaks but Konami messed that up.

 

[Jake Small]

I haven't tried PES6 yet (winning eleven 10 as it's called here comes out in February...) ... I'm a little wary about it from what I've heard. All I can say is that PES5 struck a nice balance between offense and defense for me and I really was starting to dislike PES4 by the time PES5 came around. So hopefully it's more like 5 than 4

 

[rob_8P]

I quite enjoyed pes 5, even with the scripting it was a good game. ther was still a few issues with the game that i thought konami would sort out for 6 but instead they just increased the scripting and left all of the original problems untouched. in fact some things got worse.

They claim to have increased AI but have u ever watched defenders on ur team not being controlled by u? they run into spaces wer ther is nothing 2 defend. wen some one is lining up a shot one man will jump in but the rest will move out of the way.

wen the ball is lobbed through and ur defender is running back, without pressing anything other than a direction and maybe sprint, they make up ther own mind to turn rite around and jump towards the ball, and 9 times out of 10 miss, leaving an attacker to run through and score

 

[shaft85]

LOL @ people actually defending Super Cancel, it is no more than weak programming by Konami, that feature should not be in the game in the first place. Play NBA 2K7, Madden 07 or Tiger Woods golf on PS2 these games give you total freedom of movement, why can't Konami get that aspect right?

Exactly what i've been trying to say, for over a page & 1/2.
Some people just dont get it mate, especially fanboys. They'll die for the game.

I'm sure some of them are under the illusion that they'll get some sort of award or prize from konami for defending the game.. lol

 

[Stormrider]

Edit: Since no one replied since I'll just remove this pointless squabble about WE9 and say that WEPES2007 improved quite a bit with gameplay. I just picked it up last night and the control feels new to me. Feels more realistic as the ball no longer sticks to the players' feet and I'm getting scored on frequently even from weaker teams. My fav club, ManU, are now licensed which is a big bonus for me. ML has a lot more options now, especially how you can hide the player graphs. Seems they removed consistency which makes a lot more sense now.

Still shame on the presentation department. ML still contains only 16 clubs per division and only 4 divisions, which means only 4 groups in UCL. Taking out the Bundesliga is a big step back. Finally they put the Bernabeu in but whenever they add something new they remove from another area.

I still think Konami should sell these games at 1/2 price, e.g. EA's NHL2007 vs 2KSports NHL2k7. Many will say 2K7 has more realistic gameplay so that would make it a perfect comparison to PES6 but instead it retails at 1/2 price 'cause after all it is a bare bone product compared to EA's. Konami is ripping us off...big time. They don't spend the cash to get licenses but expect to get away with a full price product. Shame on them...and shame on me for continuing to buy their product

 

[murc]

WEES2007 = 1/2WE8... 8 was fucking great.

Super Cancel has been butchered.... it's no longer a sprint, just a wayward stroll. I can't gripe about the passing... I can't gripe about the long passing... and I can't gripe about the shooting.... and the online mode is mint.

But Jesus H. Christ, why the hell can't I move my players where I want them to move to? They seem so heavy and bogged down. It seems to me, the ways they counteracted the heavy scoring in the Japanese WE versions was slowing the players physically and HEAVILY retarding their reactions times to happenings on the pitch. The player movements(the lack thereof) absolutly KILL this game for me. I've played 15 LAG FREE games online, and have yet to win one(8 draws, 7 losses). I feel that I hardly have ANY control over my players.

Shame Shame Shame on me for buying this game before reading this thread.

 

[Jake Small]

I've been playing the new version (American) for about a week, and I'm pretty impressed. The scripting is actually lessened, there is pretty much free movement for aerial balls (took some getting used to) and the AI is much much improved, as are the through balls and lofted through balls.

Defending is much different, you have to play it more cautiously. It's fine once I got used to it. I'm learning now to forego trying that early stab step and trying instead to stick on the opposition like glue, depending on who I'm marking and with what type of defender.

Everything is a lot looser and it makes for a bit quicker gameplay, or more flowing at least. What I mean is that instead of your possession being over as soon as you kick or the opponent's foot touches the ball, the ball is far more likely now to only bounce a couple of yards, and this combined with more animations makes midfield battles a lot more interesting and dynamic (and battles in the box a lot scarrier).

I still have a bit of an issue with players' reactions toward passes; I feel that they don't get feet on opposition's passes often enough, especially in the box, resulting in goofy looking passing sequences where the ball slides right by the defender or goalie to a wide open forward. This more than anything else makes defending a bit tricky. I still wish Konami could program some different types of awareness into their AI in terms of when a player is near a touchline, or in the box, and make them more cautious with their movements. Anyway I digress..

As to the above post, player momentum seems to play an even bigger role this time around, so you have to be aware of that. I often sort of run toward an attacker, only to have him step by me, and have a lot of trouble changing direction to chase him down. Still getting used to it.

Overall seems like a big improvement in my opinion, and I'm not really jiving with the scripting complaints, and I haven't noticed the computer cheating yet.. hehe.

 

[Stormrider]

I didn't like WE8 too much. It was so arcadey. Just take a player with 80+ speed, 80+ dribble and hold :R2: and there was no way anyone was gonna catch you. Dribble from 1 end to the other and cross or shoot. Rinse and repeat. Quite boring.

I believe this time around they fixed pretty much anything I can think of that was wrong with WE9. It took me 3 matches to get used to this game and now I'm dominating the AI like I did in WE9. I didn't notice any 'scripting'. Of course you can take West Ham and beat your pal as Arsenal but your pal should be equal or less skilled than you are. Then you play to West Ham's strengths and you can scrap 1 out.

-Fatigue system is perfect. Goalies can finally last a whole season.
-The missing goal glitch (once in a while you score and it doesn't register) seems to have disappeared
-The AI is better at attacking
-Defending is more challenging
-No more nonsense fouls which means more bookings
-Loose aerial movement and much more realistic aerial battles
-Passing system improved, especially through balls and lofts
-Goalies more realistic. No longer can they rush out at super speed to catch every through pass like in WE9
-More goals from corners

What else can you ask for in terms of gameplay? This is as real as it gets.

 

[Jake Small]

Something else I'm noticing is serious corrections to the defensive AI: rather than defenders simply sticking to their mark like glue they spread out and block passing options when appropriate. This changes the way I handle formations because the AI is far far less prone to simply being dragged out of position; it used to be really easy to overlap a fullback with a winger and fool the opposition defense but now they behave more intelligently. In WE9 I used Ajax and had my wingers stationed on the corner flags because eventually they would be too far away for the computer players to notice them and you get a free run down the wings. In this version I have to play it pretty far up field and knock it around a fair bit in order to open up the wingers, so the formations I'm using involve them in the midfield a lot more. Overall the formations behave a lot more realistically.

One negative re: formations I've noticed is that there doesn't seem to be as much creativity or variation in Konami's formations this time around, as if they didn't spend too much time creating them.


As you said above Stormrider ... the bookings are handled well now finally. In matches with friends aggressive defending can lead to a real problem with bookings, and it's not uncommon to end a match with an aggressive player with 2-3 yellows and an occasional red. In WE9 you could be 100% sure of when you would and would not get a red card (anything less than a tackle from behind would never earn you a red, even as last man)... but now I find myself making a hasty defensive judgment and cringing as I wait for the ref's decision


The goalie thing you mention is also a huge breathe of fresh air... in WE9 if the keeper ran out, it was 100% that he was going to grab it with no problems. Now sometimes you even see a keeper run out a bit, change his mind, and back peddle And when they do collide, sometimes the striker gets a final boot and the keeper spills it, etc. Feels a lot more realistic..


Here's to hoping they overhaul the commentary and add more master league options (multiplayer?) better cutscenes, tourney options... frankly new commentary is a long time coming!

 

[murc]

I didn't like WE8 too much. It was so arcadey. Just take a player with 80+ speed, 80+ dribble and hold :R2: and there was no way anyone was gonna catch you. Dribble from 1 end to the other and cross or shoot. Rinse and repeat. Quite boring.

Everybody who did that in that version is a cunt in my eyes.... Well for a more broad generalization, everybody who takes advantage of a game's flaws (in turn, playing the game the way it wasnt meant to be played) is a cunt. I play that game like i would real football. I build attacks and the whole shabang. Konami tweaked the shit out of gameplay because too many people were not playing football, they were just beating the hell out of the game they only way they knew how, CHEAPLY. They played the game for a day or two, realized they could score by dribbling the whole way through, or doing a cut-back, so they though, "Hey, I'll just score like this, I own this game... [later on] this game is so easy that it's stupid now." SO, I don't blame konami for changing stuff up, I blame the cheating bastards who forced them to change stuff up. If everyone just played football with football games instead of trying to bullshit their way through it... the developers would have more time developing a truly BETTER game, rather than a cheap-proofed game.

EVERYBODY that griped about how the early versions were arcadey said the EXACT same thing you just did.

Beef up the defenders... don't dumb down the players.

 

[g33k]

This game is fucking wank. The AI fucking cheats so much its fucking ridiculous. It is also fucking shit anyway, all they do is put 8 men in the box and have 2 up front. Half of the time is spent passing the ball across the box trying to make a room for a shot because the AI has set up camp inside their box.

It's also impossible to tackle AI. Get anywhere near them, they turn away and run backwards, and then pass to their team mate to do the same. They do this for minutes on end, progressing nowhere and just wasting time. It's pathetic. When I hold sprint and X there is NO WAY I can ever catch up with them. What the fuck.

They also have a boost to their stats. Notice that Rasiak is utter shit, yet my Spanish defence could not fucking catch up with him when he was sprinting down the pitch. How the fuck does that work. Also, they pull off perfect crosses, even if they are a shit team like Slovenia, all the fucking time. Utter bullshit.

The AI fouls all the time, pushing and shoving yet the referee is fucking lenient, especially in the box after I have been surrounded by 8 of them. If I do the same it is always a foul. I may as well be anally raped and nobody would batter a fucking eyelid.

Also, I thought they were making goalkeepers better, yet they are 100 times worse. My goalie has fucked up so many times its fucking gay. I have seen the goalie rebound the ball BACK INTO the net after he parried, and I mean he actually parried it BACKWARDS OVER HIS HEAD. If that's not fucking retarded I don't know what is.

And I haven't bothered to read any of this thread, I needed somewhere to fucking vent.

 

[FutebolArte]

I think pes on ps2 is far superior to the one on 360... however.. I just picked up the PS2 controller adapter, should come in soon

 

[Stormrider]

If you can't catch up, slide tackle and take a yellow.

What I meant by goalies improving is that they got worse. They were too good in WE9. According to you goalies dont commit blunders. I've seen far worse in real life.

They also have a hard time tackling you. I've scored so many with Rooney and C. Ronaldo when they hold off 2 defenders at a time. The key is watching the ball and angle it with the pad away from your marker's feet and then run without using :R1:. As long as you avoid :R1: when someone is close, you can do the same as the AI and run half the pitch for a goal.

Sometimes it seems like they have a boost on Top Player but I'm glad they do cuz its too easy on Professional.

Forgot to mention that I agree how they get away with lots of little fouls but overall I'm happy. It's much better than WE9. Remember how before your player can break a leg but all the AI gets is a warning? Gone are those days