This is one of the reasons im moving to reel this kind of talk in.
If Response times is down to the left analogue stick being used like a d-pad, how come response times were not an issue on PES games on the PS2? I certainly don't remember response times being as much as an issue then as they are now, and they have been an issue that ive seen mentioned since PES 09/10, infact I remember last years PES2010's pre launch builds being criticized by the the Muppets and WENB and a few others for having Major response time issues.
That's a good point,
This happens because, back in PES5 and PES6, the left analogue stick worked like an 8-axis d-pad... an 8-axis d-pad can only handle a handful of animations... and thus, you only implement the basic animations: responsive running animations that revolve around the 8-axis limitation.
The left analogue stick was a lot more responsive in PES5 and PES6; however, it is also important to acknowledge that the left analogue has never been as responsive as the d-pad.
This is why certain people say that the d-pad is for "hardcore" gamers and that the analogue is for "noobs".
But back to the point, the problem that we have today, is that the 8-axis d-pad concept was UPDATED (NOT REPLACED) with a 360-axis d-pad concept.
And a 360-axis d-pad concept will never work, even if they invent a d-pad with 360 movement... it will not feel right; and certainly, it does not feels right when you attach that concept to the left analogue stick.
The fact that the 360-axis d-pad concept will never work, makes it impractical; dribbling and man-marking will always have RESPONSE ISSUES if the left analogue stick is restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
The 360-axis d-pad, has improved passing and shooting; however, it will never work for dribbling and man-marking.
This is why FIFA has been having trouble with RESPONSE times since FIFA08, because they copied the 8-axis d-pad concept that Konami used with games like PES5 and PES6, and they simply transferred the concept from the d-pad to the left analogue stick; and they branded it as "360 DRIBBLING".
The truth is, it's not "360 DRIBBLING", it is a 360-axis d-pad concept, same old concept attached to a different button: EA Sports copied PES5 and PES6, and they attached more directions to the same old D-PAD CONCEPT.
This is why, since FIFA08 to FIFA11, these response issues have not been fixed and will not be fixed: EA Sports will say to you that this happens because of the Motion Capture...
But that's bullshit, this happens because the 360-axis d-pad system that they use, is flawed and outdated.
If EA Sports regressed back into the 8-axis era, and if they attach an 8-axis d-pad concept to the left analogue stick WITH MOTION CAPTURE animations; I bet all the possessions that I own, that FIFA would have zero RESPONSE ISSUES.
EA Sports is very aware of the fact, but they will tell you that this is because of motion capture; it's easier and cheaper to hide a flaw, than being forced to fix the flaw and replace the system.
EA Sports will also tell you that there is a perfectly good reason for their horrible faces and caricature-like models; yet the fact is that the faces are shit because EA Sports can't be arsed about fixing them; end of.
Yet another thing I disagree with, allowing the User to pick when or not User can make a player run is not THE cause of one on ones in fifa.
Of course is not THE cause, I never said it was THE cause, I said it was a KEY reason for why you can conjure one of them one-on-one situation almost at will.
If I had that same button in PES10, I would be dictating one-on-one situations all the time; in fact, in PES10 I do create one-on-one situations all the time by using the L2 STRATEGIES.
But yeah, I agree that it most certainly isn't THE reason; THE reason is the root of the problem, which is that the usage of the left analogue stick is restricted by a D-PAD RESTRICTION.
And there you have all the little by-products: unresponsive dribbling, unresponsive man-marking, systematic controls as opposed to intuitive controls, fragmented play due to the excess of spot-kicks awarded, broken tackling system due to the lack of spot-kicks awarded and overall lack of substance/animations, lack of player individuality, excessive one-on-one situations, lack of depth and a repetitive and predictable and systematic feel to everything, static and unresponsive off-the-ball runs, stupid AI, too easy to hold possession, laser guided passing, etc, etc.
Yet another thing I disagree with, allowing the User to pick when or not User can make a player run is not THE cause of one on ones in fifa. There are most likely more than one cause, maybe the CPU AI is so dumb its not able to track player runs correctly (PES 's AI certainly isnt, and in that respect you might be right, the game isnt ready for fifa-style player run making until the CPU AI is capable of sufficiently defending against it..........
HOWEVER, in fifa, part of the issue is the incredibly high defensive lines caused by the game compacting most of the players into a very tight space in the centre midfield area, meaning there is a HUGE amount of space between the defensive line and the goal. Look at the pic and the radar and check out the defensive lines, its crazy,
huge amounts of player concentrated in a small space, if EA could create an AI capable of retreating the defensive line fast enough and smart enough when not in possession, I think you might see less on on ones.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting. An AI that truly respect player stats (so you dont see the CPU doing through balls with Inzaghi) and an AI that allows each AI controlled team to play lots of different styles of football would balance the game out more imo.
Fight Night Round 4, had a revolutionary analogue stick concept, they changed the punching system to use the right stick, rather than simply pressing a single button to pull off a punch. Yes, this made punching more difficult technically and was designed to eliminate button bashing, maybe timing of punches had to be more precise than previous versions of EA boxing games, combination punching was totally different but guess what..........The game still sucks ass to this day and pound for pound is arguably less technical than an 8 directional ''arcade'' game which is about 10 years old, called victorious boxers.
This is because the latter game is arguably better at the core in the way it deals with things like punch stamina, timing of a punch, how a fighter controls the ring space, fighter individuality (eg. you cannot fight a certain style with certain fighters) etc. So the superior analogue stick movement and mo cap in EA's fight night did NOT gurantee what many would define as realistic, bug free, simulation of boxing because several core issues were not correct. Imo, the same principles can apply to the football debate also.
That's the problem of innovating, if you go and use the left analogue stick incorrectly: there are more ways of fucking up.
On the other hand, with the 8-axis d-pad concept, the chances of fucking up are much smaller or limited.
If Konami replaced the current 360-axis d-pad concept with a completely new analogue-based system... and yet their brand new analogue-based system is shit; then yes, PES5 and PES6 could be considered more technical and even better games.
Before innovating, you need to be sure that you understand how dribbling and man-marking works; otherwise, you will end up doing what EA SPORTS (any surprise here?) did with Fight Night.
I have played Fight Night for a long time, I have never bought the game, but my cousin always buys it; and the new system is stupid, it has no substance.
In any case, I think Fight Night is not a good example to compare with a Football Simulation; it's just very different... and the fact it is produced by EA SPORTS... is another factor that makes Fight Night an inadequate example.
Going back to Football Gaming,
Your comments regarding FIFA and PES are spot on; however, I am convinced that the differences in feel are mostly down to how Konami and EA Sports decide to hide the underlying flaw.
For instance, some people have said that FIFA10 used a smaller pitch, than the one Konami used with PES10.
If the small pitch rumor is indeed a fact, there you have another reason, which contributes to the game feeling repetitive and predictable...
On a smaller pitch, you can do less things, you take away the artistic feel of Football, and of course, it is easier to create the one-on-one situations.
If the pitch in FIFA is indeed smaller, this is not an accident, this is there to make the game more fun to play, easier to play; and of course, minimize the D-PAD RESTRICTION that is currently holding the genre back.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting.
That's one of the key words: BALANCE...
When did Konami lost that BALANCE? After PES5... the SPOT-KICK issues of PES5 were "fixed" by breaking the balance, and giving an advantage to the ball carrier....
And the thing about BALANCE... is that it goes hand in hand with UNPREDICTABILITY... Without a proper balance, the game will not have proper unpredictability.
When comparing PES5 with PES6, in PES6 the game is more fluid, because it is not as spot-kick filled as PES5.
But PES6 is when it started going shit, because PES6 was the first game were the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent.
In order to "fix" the spot-kick issue of PES5, it was necessary to break the balance of the game... there was no other way of "fixing" the spot-kick issue.
PES6 is unbalanced, it is fun and it is responsive, as well as addictive; but PES6 was a major turning point for the PES series...
PES6 killed the UNPREDICTABLE feel of PES5, and this is when the series started going shit because it lost the BALANCE and UNPREDICTABILITY that was associated with PES games.
PES6 was the first game were the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent.
The thing that PES6 still had going for it, is that it still revolved around the same, tested, RESPONSIVE 8-axis d-pad concept.
But the D-PAD RESTRICTION became apparent with PES6, and it was not going to go away: PES08 and PES09, and Konami has absolutely no idea about how to improve on PES6 and PES5.
PES10 was the first PES game were we actually have UNRESPONSIVE gameplay, because PES10 is not 8-axis d-pad.
Yet PES10 is an interesting game, because if it had fluid and RESPONSIVE animations: nobody would have said it was rubbish.
But like I have explained throughout all my posts, there is a reason for why FIFA08, FIFA09, FIFA10, PES10, FIFA11, PES11, have RESPONSE ISSUES...
And for that very reason, if you have a proper balance, this will expose the weakest area of the game; and in doing so, will make the game more boring to play.
This is part of my point, before getting revolutionary with the analogue stick.... core issues in the game (which I don't think are a by-product of your analogue stick issue) need fixing first and foremost, the AI needs stabilizing and needs to be build to provide a more balanced challenge that doesn't revolves around cheating/exploits/scripting. An AI that truly respect player stats (so you dont see the CPU doing through balls with Inzaghi) and an AI that allows each AI controlled team to play lots of different styles of football would balance the game out more imo.
Like I have maintained since the beginning, you are focusing on by-products that have not been fixed for a reason.
If EA Sports and Konami did what you want them to do, it will make the game more balanced but more boring to play because it will expose the obscene D-PAD RESTRICTION.
Back in PES5 and PES6 this was not a problem, because back then it was a responsive and addictive and unpredictable 8-axis d-pad concept...
Today, you cannot have that balance that you are looking for, because the 360-axis d-pad concept is unresponsive, sluggish, predictable, repetitive, systematic.
Back in PES5 and PES6, you could make a balanced and responsive video game; today, you have to decide between balanced or fun: people started playing PES because it was fun and balanced, but now you can only have one or the other.
There are serious repercussions when the 360-axis d-pad concept, improves passing and shooting, and yet makes dribbling and man-marking a sluggish and predictable procedure; improving one area of the game whilst at the same time fucking up another area... will never really work.
Konami and EA Sports, should replace the 360-axis d-pad concept with a completely new analogue-based concept: an analogue-based concept that offers the same freedom when passing the ball, but also, new freedom and responsiveness when dribbling with the ball and when man-marking the ball carrier.
