Tragic Year For Football Games

[el croz]

Hi chaps. This is my first post on here. I was looking for a place where I could share my opinion and voice my concerns over PES 10, the first one I've bothered to get since PES 6 and this thread got my attention as there seem to be many senior members here who are open minded enough to allow some sensible discussion on PES's shortcomings without the need to instantly turn it into a fanboy flamefest.

But onto the subject. I only got into PES series when it was first released on the PC. I was really impressed by the many touches that made this game feel like such a realistic football experience. I remember the first time I saw a player run off to celebrate a goal only to discover it had been disallowed a few seconds later. I was blown away. Something like this was not even imaginable in FIFA, a series that had been going downhill long since. PES felt like a fluid and fun experience which despite its shortcomings seemed to have so much potential it was almost terrifying. Sadly it never really evolved beyond that. By PES 6 the series had become totally stale and the outdated feel totally killed any affection towards the series that I had previously felt. Since FIFA was still shite I decided to fuck both series off until one of them got their act together. FM has since been enough to satisfy my gaming needs so it's taken a while to get back into action footy games.

This year I decided to try PES out once more. Coming back after 4 years and having seen the gaming industry move onto a new generation of hardware I was quite frankly expecting an experience that would blow me away similarly to how the first PES games on PC did back in the day. I was shocked to see the same rehashed animations, the same fundamental gameplay flaws and underneath it all the same PS2 generation engine that felt outdated even in 2006. Sure, the graphics look slick. Every screenshot of the game looks absolutely brilliant. But get the damn thing in motion and it all goes out the window just like that. The animations frame by frame are impressive enough but there's no fluidity and not nearly enough variations in most areas. It's less responsive than any other football game I've ever played and the AI is absolutely woeful, unable to spot any obvious openings to exploit and simply following the same on rail patterns of play time and time again no matter which team it tries to emulate. The main difference between difficulty levels is how fast your players can run compared to the AI's. The physics are all over the place. Why is it that a 5 yard pass is an impossible task for any player who's slightly off balance but to direct a 50 yard punt onto someone's foot straight out of the air is a basic skill for any lump of a central defender? Why does the ball look like a balloon when it's in the air and like a snooker ball on a perfect felt when it's on the ground? And don't even get me started on the keepers.

And then there's the commentary. Christ. FIFA 98 had better flow to its commentary and I'm sure it even had more lines. What's the point of spending money on professional presenters to do the commentary when the mechanics are so horribly broken?

Of course it's not all bad. It's still quite addictive and some goals you score still feel incredible. It can be quite fun to play against mates - that is when one of its dozens of glitches isn't fucking you up unexpectedly. The build up play feels satisfying despite the scripted passing and the fast pace allows for some edge of the seat moments. But the negatives still seem to outweigh any positives for me and the fact that it's 2009 instead of 2004 really makes me agree with the general sentiment of the original post at least where PES 2010 is concerned. I seriously don't understand how KONAMI get away with releasing the same game over and over again and still gather favorable reviews from most sources. This game feels like it belongs in the bargain bin, yet it sells for a full price. I don't have a console so FIFA is not an option but from what I've heard at least they're trying to move in the right direction. Sadly this does not seem to be the case with PES

Good Post.


Eagerly awaiting the imminent return of the new & improved but not gagged Tech_Skill, the voice of a disgruntled generation of PES gamers!

 

[ferdinand001]

Just to put things into perspective - which I think is missing - can someone name off some games which we should be comparing to when we set the bar for "current gen?"

I mean, I don't play a lot of games other than PES, and Fifa disappoints me in so many ways, so maybe that's why arguments like what Tech-Skill is saying sound like utter blather to me...? Can someone point me in the direction of a game that will absolutely blow me away and show me how much more I should be expecting? And, please don't talk about games like Call of duty, action games, role playing games, or racing games, etc, because there is no comparison to those games given the level of difficulty in creating a soccer game compared to, say a racing sim...

Or, is the "perfect game" all in our minds? If so, then there lies the problem it would seem.

Hey canadian pal, see these and you could see what i am talking about.

http://www.naturalmotion.com/euphoria.htm

These engine its fully capable to work with CURRENT-GEN hardware.

 

[iamcanadianeh]

Cool. That would really improve the dribbling/running animations. What games currently use it that I could check out?

 

[ferdinand001]

Grand Theft Auto IV Star Wars: The Force Unleashed para Xbox 360 y Playstation 3

Backbreaker, unfinished rugby game

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backbreaker_(video_game) release date 2010 in Play station 3 and XBOX 360.

I only can imagine these with PES...

It could be the massive.

With PES graphics, individuality and AI...and Euphoria motion engine PES COULD BE THE BEST GAME OF ALL TIME IMHO.

See these ( I am chilean, you can see it in english of course)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphoria_(software)

 

[shaun7]

That engine was used for GTA IV and it's animations are the best ever.

 

[ferdinand001]

In WENB (www.winningelevenblog.com) they already have a wishlist supervised by Konami for PES 2011. I (with other people) suggest they include the use of this engine.

Maybe, if we suggest it soo much, konami buy the license and make some kind of strategic aliance with Euphoria people.

When i see the BackBreakers trailers i begin to understand the average score in the reviews for PES2010.

Football (soccer) is the most popular sport in the world IMO, football fans deserves these level (Euphoria) of animations for the best football game PES.

 

[Winger]

Winger. Assisted or not doesn't matter. In pes it's assisted basing on player's ability. There's a huge difference to what you're saying.

I repeat.

And in response to the issue of PES and its passing actually being determined by player individuality. I ask this. What does player individuality really matter in PES when the passing is assisted and rarely ever miscues. You're going to see balls reach their target a shade quicker, and perhaps in a more appealing fashion but, it doesn't matter whether you play the pass with David Beckham or David Nugent, it is still going to reach its target regardless of everything else. On FIFA there is actually a chance that your pass is not going to reach its desired target unless you aim correctly and measure out the power to determine the pace. The majority of the time, in PES, all wayward passes were a product of the assisted passing choosing the wrong player as the recepient, or from poor timing on the gamers part in playing the pass at the wrong moment (nothing to do with accuracy) when the opponent was moving to intercept.

You answered nor resolved a single thing from my query.

And also fifa is not harder than pes. They're basically the same.

I guess this could be a matter of opinion based on individual skill at the game, differing control schemes, and the level of difficulty. But PES on Top Player, against FIFA on World Class with a Semi-Assisted Control Scheme, is no where near the same degree of challenge. That much is undeniable, in my opinion.

And I don't get all the fuss about semi assisted. You just cannot score screamers or it rarely happens anyway and we know that in reality, there are many players who can shoot from distance.

The fuss is because it actually brings the skill of the gamer into the equation, on a scale yet to be found on a PES title.

And many players can shoot from distance, yes. But the conversion rate is no where near as high as that found in PES, which is written into the game for added drama and excitement. Scoring from distance should be more difficult than scoring from one on one situations, as it is in reality.

Pes' finishing is worse than fifa because it's easier? Pes' finishing is better because it depends on the player's ability (the footballer) to shoot aswell and because in general it's better. This is one area in which I hate fifa.
Mainly shooting was the biggest disappointment in fifa for me since I see alot of football and the power of the shot is far too weak in many situations.

I don't follow you on this one.

It is more difficult to create a scoring opportunity in FIFA. And if you're playing on a semi-assisted control scheme it is that more difficult to get your effort on target. And once you have dictated where to place the shot, with the chosen amount of power, then the players statistics come into it to dictate just how well the shot from said player is going to be in terms of accuracy, technique, and power.

I fail to see where there is room for complaint. Whilst the shooting on PES is of such a standard where you can aim towards the corner flag and see your shot smash into the top corner of the net. Aim for the corner flag on FIFA and watch as your shot captures all the accuracy of a Nani strike. If you want to get it on target in FIFA, you aim on target, and then the statistics of the player come into play. It shouldn't be as basic as aiming to the left, or to the right, and then leaving it down to the player statistics to decide the rest. The reason I was so poor at the shooting on FIFA to begin with was because PES never required me to aim precisely. It was either aim hard left, or hard right, for the majority.

 

[shaun7]

And in response to the issue of PES and its passing actually being determined by player individuality. I ask this. What does player individuality really matter in PES when the passing is assisted and rarely ever miscues. You're going to see balls reach their target a shade quicker, and perhaps in a more appealing fashion but, it doesn't matter whether you play the pass with David Beckham or David Nugent, it is still going to reach its target regardless of everything else. On FIFA there is actually a chance that your pass is not going to reach its desired target unless you aim correctly and measure out the power to determine the pace. The majority of the time, in PES, all wayward passes were a product of the assisted passing choosing the wrong player as the recepient, or from poor timing on the gamers part in playing the pass at the wrong moment (nothing to do with accuracy) when the opponent was moving to intercept.

You answered nor resolved a single thing from my query.

I am sorry, but individuality on pes is a strong point and passes vary very much between players.
I know what you're saying about assisted, but in fifa, you get more control which is a good thing, but it looses individuality so there won't be difference between players. That's a not a good thing in a football game for sure.

I guess this could be a matter of opinion based on individual skill at the game, differing control schemes, and the level of difficulty. But PES on Top Player, against FIFA on World Class with a Semi-Assisted Control Scheme, is no where near the same degree of challenge. That much is undeniable, in my opinion.

Fair enough.

The fuss is because it actually brings the skill of the gamer into the equation, on a scale yet to be found on a PES title.

As I said countless times, fifa requires more skill AT TIMES because of all the semi assisted and manual settings but they loose individuality so every team (strong ones) becomes more or less the same so the challenge of every team won't be there. Also in pes you do need skill to do well timed things and to play your players and like every managers says, PLAY A CARD. Pes is all about technicality and how well you give instructions as well as individuality. So in the end, pes still requires skill but different to fifa. In pes you need to play the right cards and players so that you outplay the opponent. So in the end, both require skill.

It is more difficult to create a scoring opportunity in FIFA.

This I cannot agree with.
Both games are difficult but in fifa I score 1vs1 many times because of bad shooting from distance. But fifa has great placed shots. Still the shooting is very weak compared to reality. Only players like Ibra and Lampard are capable of scoring powerful shots, which is still a bit weak compared to their real life counterparts.

I fail to see where there is room for complaint. Whilst the shooting on PES is of such a standard where you can aim towards the corner flag and see your shot smash into the top corner of the net. Aim for the corner flag on FIFA and watch as your shot captures all the accuracy of a Nani strike

I have always said that in fifa you get more control, but in the end it's shooting is not good enough.

 

[Makavelian]

im starting to dislike this game tbh now that ive had it for a while
great graphics average gameplay the majority of the time ,too fast in passing etc. then too sloppy in other areas of the gameplay,
far far to easy on top player after struggling the first few days now its just a piece of piss,online everyone plays like retards unless you no ure oponent ,
of course still get joy out of multiplayer matches but ,like i said theres no correct balance to the game its either too fast or too slow
dont get me started on them through balls ,espicially the thick ai that persist with through balls about 20 foot overhit
the through balls are either on the money or miles overhit :realmad:
edit ..also wtf konami have you done to the ai defensive line when ure countering ,backing regardles if youve got 4 in the defence and only one attacker running at them
also why is it so easy to get free kicks on the edge of the box but youll be hard pressed for the ai to make a mistake in the box,,
and of course ref-a-fucking-rees have got to be the worst in pes history

i dislike fifa even more ,so ill pass on footy games this year , i think i might just use my pes disk for a table mat and put it to good use

 

[toffee]

Makavelian I was very disappointed with PES 2010 when I first bought it (unresponsive and felt awkward to play) but I thought it only fair that I give it time to get used to it. I have given it time and I still hate it. After trying the FIFA demo and seeing how far it's come along since PES ruled the roost, the fact that you can measure the accuracy and power of your passes/shots to precision makes PES look childsplay now. 'WINGER' explains this well with his following comment:

Whilst the shooting on PES is of such a standard where you can aim towards the corner flag and see your shot smash into the top corner of the net. Aim for the corner flag on FIFA and watch as your shot captures all the accuracy of a Nani strike

People have long associated PES as the 'simulator' and FIFA as the 'arcade game'.

Times have changed. I believe the PES we all knew and loved died a few years ago (pre current-gen), since then they've messed around with it's fundamental basics and screwed up what was once a tried and tested game engine (of which, most seem to agree 'PES 6' was the best version of it to date). There's also way too many PES fans living in its past glory. Those that are genuinely enjoying the new game then I'm happy for you, but the rest of you 'putting up with it' for want of being loyal to the series - you're kidding yourselves. The usual "FIFA has no soul/it's a kid's game" spouted drivel is very dated now.



After playing both FIFA 2010 and PES 2010, I can now see why many PES fans have crossed over to FIFA and I'm yet another one of them following suit (reluctantly, because the PES series is very close to my heart). But enough is enough for me this year as far as PES is concerned chaps.

 

[shaun7]

^You are not accepting reality. Pes and fifa are both good. Accept that or at least respect those who like pes.
No, some of use are not living in the past. Pes 10 can play like past pes games.
When pes 09 was the arcade game, I said it all out that fifa was better.
This year, both are good.

 

[toffee]

^You are not accepting reality. Pes and fifa are both good. Accept that or at least respect those who like pes.
No, some of use are not living in the past. Pes 10 can play like past pes games.
When pes 09 was the arcade game, I said it all out that fifa was better.
This year, both are good.

No I will not accept '"PES and FIFA are both good" because I disagree with you - I think this year's PES is awful. I know some fans aren't living in the past but many seemingly are.

 

[shaun7]

^Fine, it's your opinion to say it's awful, but others think it's great.

 

[Sweey]

^Fine, it's your opinion to say it's awful, but others think it's great.

And others think it is awful too. You need to remember that side of it when you post something like the above.

 

[toffee]

^Fine, it's your opinion to say it's awful, but others think it's great.

Yes I know others think it's great, and I'm happy for them. We all have our own opinions on the game.

 

[shaun7]

^Yes

And others think it is awful too. You need to remember that side of it when you post something like the above.

Ofcourse. That's why I didn't say everyone else likes it.

 

[ferdinand001]

Come on....

Both are "good average"games.

Its a matter of taste.

IMO the real question is: which is less bad??

IMO Pes its less bad, because in PES we have some kind of real individuality.
FIFA has individuality too, but its noticeable only in the physical play or the speed/acceleration power...

If you play with Drogba, Anelka, Agonbalor, Adebayor... even Tony ( "Un tronco" como decimos en sudamerica) you can win almost every air battle, and you can goo walking throw the oponent defence in legendary difficulty.

I see individuality (core of football) in Fifa only in the big bonned players.

Finally, in my opinion the best attacker in Fifa is Tony...can you believe that?

come on..

 

[Makavelian]

Come on....

Both are "good average"games.

Its a matter of taste.

IMO the real question is: which is less bad??

IMO Pes its less bad, because in PES we have some kind of real individuality.
FIFA has individuality too, but its noticeable only in the physical play or the speed/acceleration power...

If you play with Drogba, Anelka, Agonbalor, Adebayor... even Tony ( "Un tronco" como decimos en sudamerica) you can win almost every air battle, and you can goo walking throw the oponent defence in legendary difficulty.

I see individuality (core of football) in Fifa only in the big bonned players.

Finally, in my opinion the best attacker in Fifa is Tony...can you believe that?

come on..

you mean luca Toni?
i just dont get fifa ,and ive played it quite abit (on console) but its not for me ,but i wont begrudge the next man that likes it
i remember reading this thread a while ago ,and thinking are these people playing the same game as me, When i still thought it was the next coming .
but im finally seeing the proper pes 2010 ,& i dont like what i see

I played my personal fav Pes 3 recently and dam it still plays an amazing game.

i totally agree everyone just seems to jump on the pes6 bandwagon...........
ive not played it (pes 3) for years but if my memory serves me right it was the first pes the introduced the marsille roulette , and i remember skinning my mates with that trick to this day

pes 3 i salute you

 

[dan80]

can i ask what marsille roulette means ive seen it as a skill card but never new what it ment

 

[shaun7]

The 360 turn that Zidane did moslty. That card enables the player to do it.