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Tragic Year For Football Games

Stormrider

Registered User
With the money that can be made from football games. I am suprised there is not more competition.
What happened to Actua Soccer? Addidas Power Soccer? Sensible?
I would like more variety.

Very tough competing with giants like EA and Konami who already have well established franchises. Very high chance the new player will just get swallowed up 1st year. They would need to strike gold and create a masterpiece on their 1st attempt or they'll lose a lot of money and never recover. I think we'll only see a new player the day Konami calls it quits.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
Very tough competing with giants like EA and Konami who already have well established franchises. Very high chance the new player will just get swallowed up 1st year. They would need to strike gold and create a masterpiece on their 1st attempt or they'll lose a lot of money and never recover. I think we'll only see a new player the day Konami calls it quits.

I believe it would not take too much effort to challenge EA and KONAMI, the footy games we got atm is below par in almost every aspect of the game comparing to other games of 2009.
 

Sweey

*RETIRED*
I believe it would not take too much effort to challenge EA and KONAMI, the footy games we got atm is below par in almost every aspect of the game comparing to other games of 2009.

Yes but what about the costs involved in getting a team together for months on end to make a football game when the other two names, good games or not, are clearly established and very well known. It isn't worth the financial risk.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
Yes but what about the costs involved in getting a team together for months on end to make a football game when the other two names, good games or not, are clearly established and very well known. It isn't worth the financial risk.

Qui audet adipiscitur!

it's latin, you figure :)
 

Sweey

*RETIRED*
Bloody hell your sig is long. Eight lines at font size 1 (you're using font size 3) is what I tend to say is the limit. Mine is nine but I'm an admin and abuse of power is in my remit.

Back to my earlier point, may I also add that if a new game came onto the scene people would be more inclined to buy FIFA or PES even if the more established games weren't quite as polished. Brand loyalty - as we cleaerly see when it comes to my criticism of PES - goes a long way.
 

ferdinand001

Registered User
I understand tech skill needs...

I think that konamy reallu needs a brand new game engine for 2011 capable to deal with Mo-Cap to give us a trully NEXT-GEN experience...

Maybe they need a new producer...because seabass its too tired now.
 

Sweey

*RETIRED*
I understand tech skill needs...

I think that konamy reallu needs a brand new game engine for 2011 capable to deal with Mo-Cap to give us a trully NEXT-GEN experience...

Maybe they need a new producer...because seabass its too tired now.

Current gen. PS3 and 360 are current gen.

Next gen is what will come afterwards and the moment it arrives, it becomes current gen.
 

alp-pacino

Registered User
Current gen. PS3 and 360 are current gen.

Next gen is what will come afterwards and the moment it arrives, it becomes current gen.

i think what he meant to say was that the current game engines they are using are not up to par as with current games on the next gen consoles i mean take a look at cryengine 3 its a million miles better than the engine konami are using at the moment..
 

Sweey

*RETIRED*
i think what he meant to say was that the current game engines they are using are not up to par as with current games on the next gen consoles i mean take a look at cryengine 3 its a million miles better than the engine konami are using at the moment..

I know what he's saying but you don't get what I'm saying - PS3 and 360 are current gen, what he's trying to say is PES feels last generation (PS2, XBox) and hasn't taken the transition to the current gen (PS3 and 360).

I get really annoyed by people calling PS3 and 360 next gen when they're current gen, that's what I meant.

Next gen consoles are not with us. The moment they are, they'll become current gen. It works the same way as tomorrow - it turns into today but tomorrow itself never actually arrives. Next gen will always be the generation after the current one.

Yes it really annoys me so much I had to type all of that.
 

alp-pacino

Registered User
I know what he's saying but you don't get what I'm saying - PS3 and 360 are current gen, what he's trying to say is PES feels last generation (PS2, XBox) and hasn't taken the transition to the current gen (PS3 and 360).

I get really annoyed by people calling PS3 and 360 next gen when they're current gen, that's what I meant.

Next gen consoles are not with us. The moment they are, they'll become current gen. It works the same way as tomorrow - it turns into today but tomorrow itself never actually arrives. Next gen will always be the generation after the current one.

Yes it really annoys me so much I had to type all of that.

lol i think someone needs to rub thier ears and go woosah.
 

Sabatasso

Banned
Bloody hell your sig is long. Eight lines at font size 1 (you're using font size 3) is what I tend to say is the limit. Mine is nine but I'm an admin and abuse of power is in my remit.

Back to my earlier point, may I also add that if a new game came onto the scene people would be more inclined to buy FIFA or PES even if the more established games weren't quite as polished. Brand loyalty - as we cleaerly see when it comes to my criticism of PES - goes a long way.

I had no idea I could actually change the font size on my signature, better now i suppose?

I think the market is ready for a contender to EA and KONAMI for the action-soccer throne.
A game that does the BAL mode more detailed than PES or the Manager Career mode better than FIFA would go a long way to attract fans.
Neither of the modes can be copyrighted, because the ideas is older than both the above mentioned games franchises has existed. (Kick off series offer both in different games, SWOS offer manager mode etc.)
Any game with half decent game engine, decent GFX and a detailed "one player" career with elements of RP in it would get my attention in a heartbeat. I doubt I'm the only one, honestly.

Almost every game-genre today has one or two market leaders, it's not a bigger risk to create a new game and possible franchise in this genre than in other genres in my opinion.
 

MikeK185

Registered User
Hi chaps. This is my first post on here. I was looking for a place where I could share my opinion and voice my concerns over PES 10, the first one I've bothered to get since PES 6 and this thread got my attention as there seem to be many senior members here who are open minded enough to allow some sensible discussion on PES's shortcomings without the need to instantly turn it into a fanboy flamefest.

But onto the subject. I only got into PES series when it was first released on the PC. I was really impressed by the many touches that made this game feel like such a realistic football experience. I remember the first time I saw a player run off to celebrate a goal only to discover it had been disallowed a few seconds later. I was blown away. Something like this was not even imaginable in FIFA, a series that had been going downhill long since. PES felt like a fluid and fun experience which despite its shortcomings seemed to have so much potential it was almost terrifying. Sadly it never really evolved beyond that. By PES 6 the series had become totally stale and the outdated feel totally killed any affection towards the series that I had previously felt. Since FIFA was still shite I decided to fuck both series off until one of them got their act together. FM has since been enough to satisfy my gaming needs so it's taken a while to get back into action footy games.

This year I decided to try PES out once more. Coming back after 4 years and having seen the gaming industry move onto a new generation of hardware I was quite frankly expecting an experience that would blow me away similarly to how the first PES games on PC did back in the day. I was shocked to see the same rehashed animations, the same fundamental gameplay flaws and underneath it all the same PS2 generation engine that felt outdated even in 2006. Sure, the graphics look slick. Every screenshot of the game looks absolutely brilliant. But get the damn thing in motion and it all goes out the window just like that. The animations frame by frame are impressive enough but there's no fluidity and not nearly enough variations in most areas. It's less responsive than any other football game I've ever played and the AI is absolutely woeful, unable to spot any obvious openings to exploit and simply following the same on rail patterns of play time and time again no matter which team it tries to emulate. The main difference between difficulty levels is how fast your players can run compared to the AI's. The physics are all over the place. Why is it that a 5 yard pass is an impossible task for any player who's slightly off balance but to direct a 50 yard punt onto someone's foot straight out of the air is a basic skill for any lump of a central defender? Why does the ball look like a balloon when it's in the air and like a snooker ball on a perfect felt when it's on the ground? And don't even get me started on the keepers.

And then there's the commentary. Christ. FIFA 98 had better flow to its commentary and I'm sure it even had more lines. What's the point of spending money on professional presenters to do the commentary when the mechanics are so horribly broken?

Of course it's not all bad. It's still quite addictive and some goals you score still feel incredible. It can be quite fun to play against mates - that is when one of its dozens of glitches isn't fucking you up unexpectedly. The build up play feels satisfying despite the scripted passing and the fast pace allows for some edge of the seat moments. But the negatives still seem to outweigh any positives for me and the fact that it's 2009 instead of 2004 really makes me agree with the general sentiment of the original post at least where PES 2010 is concerned. I seriously don't understand how KONAMI get away with releasing the same game over and over again and still gather favorable reviews from most sources. This game feels like it belongs in the bargain bin, yet it sells for a full price. I don't have a console so FIFA is not an option but from what I've heard at least they're trying to move in the right direction. Sadly this does not seem to be the case with PES :(
 

ferdinand001

Registered User
Sorry...

Don Sweey and Pacino both are right.

What I mean is I think that konamy really needs a brand new game engine for 2011capable to deal with Mo-Cap to give us a trully CURRENT-GEN experience...(360-PS3-PC).

Maybe they need a new producer...because seabass its too tired now... when I heard seabass in the latest interview and he said: " I liked a lot SERIE A, before when PES was in good shape"...

If Seabass say that, IMHO he know that PES needs a major overhaul.

By the way...he also say " I can not defeat the CPU in 5 stars difficulty"...
I think, if the main producer can not defeat the AI, how is he going to see the problems with the product??

Finally and Anyway I like PES2010 and IMO its the best football game today...but that does not mean that PES2010 match what the hardware can offer today in the current-gen.
 
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iamcanadianeh

Registered User
Just to put things into perspective - which I think is missing - can someone name off some games which we should be comparing to when we set the bar for "current gen?"

I mean, I don't play a lot of games other than PES, and Fifa disappoints me in so many ways, so maybe that's why arguments like what Tech-Skill is saying sound like utter blather to me...? Can someone point me in the direction of a game that will absolutely blow me away and show me how much more I should be expecting? And, please don't talk about games like Call of duty, action games, role playing games, or racing games, etc, because there is no comparison to those games given the level of difficulty in creating a soccer game compared to, say a racing sim...

Or, is the "perfect game" all in our minds? If so, then there lies the problem it would seem.
 

Amateur

Registered User
Just to put things into perspective - which I think is missing - can someone name off some games which we should be comparing to when we set the bar for "current gen?"

I mean, I don't play a lot of games other than PES, and Fifa disappoints me in so many ways, so maybe that's why arguments like what Tech-Skill is saying sound like utter blather to me...? Can someone point me in the direction of a game that will absolutely blow me away and show me how much more I should be expecting? And, please don't talk about games like Call of duty, action games, role playing games, or racing games, etc, because there is no comparison to those games given the level of difficulty in creating a soccer game compared to, say a racing sim...

Or, is the "perfect game" all in our minds? If so, then there lies the problem it would seem.

I think disappointment is perfectly obvious. You can go play PES5, and then play PES6, and then go to PES09 -and- it's more or less the same game.

We create runs by passing the ball and then tapping the R2 button, same old dribbling concept, nothing innovative on the defensive end, etc, etc.

And what EA have done with FIFA, is pretty much copying the concept of games like PES6; they know people will buy it as it's a proven formula.

IMO it's been a disappointing time for football sims; all down to a genuine lack of innovation, etc. Instead of going on and on, I will resume everything and say that the lack of innovation is all down to their approach.

A game that is meant to be played for 10 Minutes or 5 mins per half, or in other words, a 10 Minute Simulation -will- always have plenty of obvious and yet logical limitations.

EA would like to have better player likenesses or player individualism, it's one of the usual improvements that fans ask for; but they simply can't.

FIFA09 (and I'm guessing FIFA10 also) offer some things that PES cannot, like the passing bar and more passing freedom, etc. But consequently, we don't have player likenesses, because then it would be harder for the AI to manipulate how the game flows in under 10 minutes of play.

Having both the technical advantages of FIFA + the AI and player likenesses of PES - would encourage longer more realistic games. And this is something that neither Konami nor EA have taken an iniciative with; they pretty much refuse to evolve.

Therefore, we will only see revolutionary improvements as soon as the approach or philosophy changes.
 

Winger

Registered User
I was scoring for fun on PES 2010 (Difficuly: Top Player) in comparison to FIFA 10 (Difficulty: World Class) with a semi-assited control scheme, which is more difficult than the default assisted control scheme packaged with PES.

In my opinion it is far more difficult to fashion a goal scoring opportunity on FIFA, than it is on PES. In terms of finishing off those goal scoring opportunities, it's a similar finding for me. I would get into crossing positions with relative ease on PES and get in a brilliant cross, unchallenged, far more often than not, and then see the ball hit the back off the net off a bullet header, if not the unstoppable diving header that happened way too often. It was all too easy. With FIFA I find it is not as easy to get into a crossing position, and there is neither as much time to dither on the ball to decide where to place your cross before an opposition player is on top of you.

I also find the centre backs on FIFA to be far more effective at getting defensive headers in, and generally making life difficult for your attackers in the area. It's a real physical battle to edge out your marker and then get a header away while trying to keep it on target with that marker leaning into you or throwing themselves desperately in a bid to limit your options. And on semi-assisted it is a hell of a lot more difficult to direct a header on target than it is on PES.

In regard to one on one situations. First and foremost, again, I find it a lot more difficult to get into one on one situations on FIFA than on PES. And when I do go through one on one in FIFA it's, again, more difficult to keep your effort on target due to a semi-assited control scheme actually bringing aiming into the equation. I do find that when I'm through one on one on FIFA, completely clear of any opposition defenders, if I can keep a cool head I can slot the ball home. But on PES it is being reported that the goalkeepers are pulling out brilliant saves a little too often in these situations. This is an area where PES has got the realism wrong, if this is true. If we all watch real football, and I assume that we all do, then we can all agree that when a striker is through one on one they're going to score far more often than not if they place their shot correctly. The fact David N'Gog managed to score a one on one against Edwin Van der Sar, at the first time of asking, backs that up without a need for any statistics. So EA have done nothing other than impliment a realistic approach to one on ones. Konami on the other hand have made one on ones more difficult than they should be, at the expense of realism, so to create more drama during matches. If you want a more arcade feel, then that is fine. But for those of us who want realism, it's very, very poor.

In PES you can score from crosses all day long, and bury long range efforts quite regularly. In FIFA you can score regularly from one on ones, which are harder to come by. I think the latter is just a tad more realistic. And it ultimately doesn't matter all that much that the goalkeepers in PES are fashioned to save a lot of one on ones (which is, again, just plain unrealistic), because they collapse at the mere thought of a fake-shot, allowing you to round them and score a tap-in.

On a different note; I am beginning to notice the player individuality in FIFA a lot more. I would say it is not as pronounced as PES but, it is definitely there. The supposed lack of player individuality is one of the main scratching posts for loyal PES fans to knock FIFA over, and well, it really isn't that big of an issue anymore. If you think Gary Neville is going to play the same as John O'Shea, or even similarly to Rafael, then you're sorely mistaken. I was worried that passing and shooting were going to be unchanged by player statistics, and initially it was difficult to tell, but in time it becomes more apparent that stats do matter.

And in response to the issue of PES and its passing actually being determined by player individuality. I ask this. What does player individuality really matter in PES when the passing is assisted and rarely ever miscues. You're going to see balls reach their target a shade quicker, and perhaps in a more appealing fashion but, it doesn't matter whether you play the pass with David Beckham or David Nugent, it is still going to reach its target regardless of everything else. On FIFA there is actually a chance that your pass is not going to reach its desired target unless you aim correctly and measure out the power to determine the pace. The majority of the time, in PES, all wayward passes were a product of the assisted passing choosing the wrong player as the recepient, or from poor timing on the gamers part in playing the pass at the wrong moment (nothing to do with accuracy) when the opponent was moving to intercept.
 

proevofan88

Registered User
That's what I set you up for.

Swearing at an admin is an automatic ban. Lovely. Not an abuse of power as it is in our rules. Idiot.

You see, as someone who has no life it is going to hurt you plenty not to be able to sit on here defending your holy game against criticism.

You tell me to get a life? I reply with :laugh:.

Set me up? Are you stupid? lol you must be sitting on your computer all day long and congratulating yourself when you 'set' someone up and ban them...

Does that make you feel big? Like a man maybe?

Did you really think that I didnt know I would get banned? People like you need to be medicated. Society doesn't need you. You sit at home on your computer and you think you 'set' someone up so that he will be BANNED? oh noo...what a punishment!

Dude its a website. You make it seem so terrible that I am being banned. Like its a crime.

Buddy: It's just a website. Dont place so much importance on it. Everyone here knows that your lurking around day and night.

Here is what you do:

1- You turn off the computer ( it might be painful the first time you do it )
2 - Look in the mirror and repeat this a thousand times
"I am not a cyber god, I shall no longer feel like a man because I can ban"
3 - Walk towards the door that leads to the other realm...the actual world!
4 - Make sure you have VERY ( and i mean VERY ) dark shades on or the light from outside will burn your natural-light-deprived-eyeballs.
5 - Step out into the real world and take a deep breath! It feels great.

Repeat everyday.
 

shaun7

Registered User
Winger. Assisted or not doesn't matter. In pes it's assisted basing on player's ability. There's a huge difference to what you're saying.
And also fifa is not harder than pes. They're basically the same.
And I don't get all the fuss about semi assisted. You just cannot score screamers or it rarely happens anyway and we know that in reality, there are many players who can shoot from distance.
Pes' finishing is worse than fifa because it's easier? Pes' finishing is better because it depends on the player's ability (the footballer) to shoot aswell and because in general it's better. This is one area in which I hate fifa.
Mainly shooting was the biggest disappointment in fifa for me since I see alot of football and the power of the shot is far too weak in many situations.
But then fifa has other better things then pes like power bar in passing and precise analogue movement, the placed shot from distance and tricks obviously. Oh and I agree that we need at least a power bar for passing in pes because at times the pass won't go to the player I want. But this year, it's better than in 09 anyway.
 
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