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PES 2009 Sales - Not as high as previous years

trigglebeef

Registered User
okay so let's take a scenario, now I receive the ball in the midfield. I'm surrounded by 10 players that I should control. Do I control all their movements? or should I only control the center forwards? But which one of them? you mention make a forward run, but to what direction? what about the defense? How often do I have to provide those controls and updates to all the players? so when I don't provide a command for my teammates, what should the AI do? stand still?!

I agree that Football is a collective effort, but you can't (a single player) control the collective effort. So AI is and will continue to exist for that mode. Hopefully they make it smarter so that for good players they make more intelligent runs/movements/passes more often.

I think the only way to reflect the collective effort of real football is to play 11vs11 human players. Each player controls ONE player only. But what if my teammate online makes a stupid pass or a retarded run? Then I have to personally drive to his home and beat him with the controller. That way collectively I and only I can enjoy it all.

You should just put your frustrations aside mate, and try to understand my argument before you say anything.

Fifa's system for initiating off the ball runs is simple to use, and very well done. It has the intelligence to work out who your intended target is 9 times out of 10 (the other 1 time being when there is multiple equally good options, meaning you can opt for the player it makes run anyway). It's criminal that Konami have not implemented this.
 

Winger

Registered User
how can u have control over your entire team in master league format or even worse in BAL? it's not realistic. as a manager you don't have control over all the players. as a player you don't have control over the other players. so what realism are you talking about?

In BAL it is not possible. I accept, as should everyone, that you can only control what your own player does in BAL. Although that is not the case. We still have control over asking the CPU controlled players to apply pressure, and to hold their shape. We should not have that control, and we should not need to have that control, either. This is lazy from Konami.

Outside of BAL, in ML mode for example where we are in control of the entire team - semi assisted control - it should be down to us to decide when our covering defenders apply pressure, or hold their position, not the CPU. If we don't have that control then it becomes less about one player beating another as dictated by skill, than it does about one player beating the other as a result of who best manipulated the situations created by the decisions of the CPU that destroyed the human players hard work, formation, and tactics.

and how do u propose the AI to be designed to achieve that total control that you want? Even if for the sake of argument you had human players controlling each player and all playing online you would still have mistakes and players playing out of position.

Mistakes that fall right at the feet of the human player are fine. It happens. Asking your covering team-mate(s) to apply pressure on the ball and then seeing a slick one-two, or a slide-rule pass take them out of the game is an acceptable error that one must swallow, so long as that pressure was choosen to be applied by the human player, and not a random happening at the whim of the CPU when the human player was not applying pressure, nor had any wish for pressure to be applied, as they were trying to keep their shape and remain hard to break down. Seeing a player sent off, or a penalty awarded to the opposition, is something we have to hold our hands up to if we choose for the player to make a challenge, not if it's out of our hands and totally uncalled for in the specific situation.

The AI needs to simply be coded to see players keep the shape as best they can (dictated by their stats) unless specifically told to come out of position and apply pressure.

In my opinion those AI issues can be frustrating but it provides some variation in gameplay. and i can't accept the argument that john terry in the game has to be near perfect. I've seen live games where Rio Ferdinand makes an ass out of himself. I have just seen man utd break chelsea's defense mainly on set pieces (3 times in one game). I also just saw barca fight back to win the game because of messi 3-2 over the weekend.

These occurances in BAL take place more than once, twice, or even three times, especially if the human controlled character leaves them to their own jobs, and that is what makes it unrealistic. Over the course of a season the aforementioned defenders are going to be able to count their errors on a cartoon hand.

to expect barca to always win, to expect defenders to be near perfect just because they play for chelsea, man utd or real is not realistic.

Yes, it is realistic to expect Chelsea, and Manchester United, for examples sake, to have a tighter defence and a more potent attack than many of the teams below them. It's not a question of them being perfect every time, it's a question of them being better than the rest more often than not, and making terrible errors a whole lot less. And the interplay of the defence, and midfield, not being effected by the performance (be it amazing or otherwise) of a centre forward. Drogba, and later Anelka, were awful for Chelsea, truly awful, but that didn't stop Chelsea having some solid possession in their defensive third, and midfield third, popping decent passes around before the attack broke down in the attacking third.

For BAL I just enjoy the game and I don't work around the AI issues. If my defense messes up then so be it, I try to make up and score goals, if that doesn't happen well we lost, so what! There is always next game. At least when that happens your losing in on a video game and not in real life, so dealing with it should be easier. Just imagine what chelsea players are going through right now!!

When I was playing for Wigan, and Bolton, it was acceptable. But upon moving to Spurs who were at the time a Top 4 side conceeding very few goals, and scoring bucket loads in attack, only to see the exact same errors and gameplay quirks occur was a disgrace, and not realistic in the slightest.

It wasn't a question of losing, or winning, it was the manner in which the AI saw either or take place.
 

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
Have you player BAP on Fifa? Your teammates AI is generally outstanding and you can play some fantastic flowing football with them. It can be a bit easy on World Class if you're playing for a top team because they play such good football, but legendary difficulty mode still provides a good test of your ability to hold your won in the team.

Yeah, I tried it, but I thought it was terrible, to be honest. Just the control side of things I think is better suited to a single player game in BAL than in BAP, but maybe I'll give BAP another go. Again, though, I think the issue is about personal taste. I understand what Konami is doing - trying to get you to carry the team on your back, and I'm not sure I would appreciate it as much if it my teammates always won the games for me... I think they want you to be like Maradona at Napoli than a small part of a great team. One could say that I'm making this into an excuse for "bad AI" but the little things about the way the game is designed, like the fact that your team obviously plays at a slightly lower level than the opponents AI makes me think the game is designed that way on purpose.
 

bennismalls

Registered User
In short, I will not be buying PES 2010. I may actually spend my hard earned cash on FIFA 2010 next go around. Why? Because Konami deserve to take a massive hit in the sales department so that they wake up and actually put some hard graft into the series, again. And the only way that is going to happen is if they suffer a loss of income from the franchise. They've been coasting for a few years now, simply tweaking the game in minor areas, and not necessarily for the better.

EA on the other hand have at least made an effort with their latest offerings of FIFA. FIFA 2008 was quite good, a refreshing change, but not as good as PES 2008 (PS2). FIFA 2009 seems to have taken the evolution further, for the better. But it is still missing a little something, at least for me. But because of the fact that EA are making a real effort to improve their game, and have done so on the most recent releases, they are the company who actually deserve to reap the benefits of my hard earned dosh going their way. If this rate of improvement continues then FIFA 2010 may actually be as close to the perfect FIFA, in my eyes, that it has ever been.

PES on the other hand has nothing on the horizon, and neither anything on the previous two releases to suggest what we can expect outside of further dissappointment. If Konami do improve the series it will be an unexpected change, but at the same time a much needed one.

I own PES 2009 and for all the faults and annoyances within the game I can still enjoy single player mode, so thus PES remains my choice. Multiplayer is awful. Online is abandoned altogether. And the new feature Become A Legend is massively flawed. The AI needs a complete overhaul. The flaws (in BAL) can be played around, but that hinders the enjoyment and defeats the purpose, not to mention that it is extremely frustrating to be required to do so if one wants to experience the mode. The game survives on the Master League alone, and the fact that the gameplay of FIFA is still a little outside of what I would like. But if that changes, and it wouldn't need much to change it, then when coupled with solid multiplayer, and an online mode that works, then I'm afraid I may be making to jump back to FIFA for the first time since FIFA '99 (which was subsequently abandoned for ISS Pro Evolution).

This post comes closest to summing up how I feel about PES 09. The game is still good and fun.

The things I think PES can improve on.

- Well people always say gameplay over presenation. Thats fair, but it seems that some people would rather sacrafice instead of balance it out. With PES, even Seebass has said if there was anything he'd take from FIFA 09, it would be the animations. I agree with that. While the PES animations are not poor, they are not better than FIFA's.

Turning on the ball, changing directions, collisions, etc. Those things imo open up more ro the game. Apart from just making it look better, it makes it look authentic.

Both games are lacking some things in their BAL/BAP modes. FIFA's seems to easy, but PES is too hard. The least PES could do is allow you to train while not playing training matches and first team matches. That should allow you to make your stats better because the starting stats in BAL mode are unacceptable.

PES needs to learn how to make sure that there are good goal keepers outside of Buffon, Casillas and Cech. Also the number of goals scored from rebounds is unrealistic.

Some other little tings I think they need to improve. But hopefully this drop in sales helps.

Wait, the biggest reason why PES is screwed? No update for North America.. WTF is that about? :realmad:
 

WEFORLIFE

Registered User
Konami need to take serious actions before they loss more consumers. Konami definitely has done something wrong or not good enough, which has caused Konami to loss their business. Why they want to make the AI stupid? Why they want to make the goal keeper stupid, can't even catch an easy powerless shot? Why 85% of the shot goes straight to goalkeeper or shot wide??? Many players feel angry after playing the game due to all these problems. It really affects the gameplay. One of the possible reason they loss business is because the fans is angry.
Anyway, it is good to us (consumers) that they loss the business. This will probably drive Konami to take some concrete action.
 

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
You always seem to make relevant questions, followed by very Limiting views. You CANNOT manually control 11 players -but- you CAN dictate how the 11 players move through space.

It can be done, How?? That's the cool part, it is something that deserves a lot of thinking.

In my opinion, we cannot really dictate how the 11 players will move AT ALL TIMES. But we could have more in-depth settings for Our Team's Tactical Scheme.

How do you want your team to move when the AMF is holding the ball, if you want your DFM to stay back at all times, if you want your Strikers to have a couple of particular off-the-ball runs as The Standard Move, how you want your forwards to position themselves whenever you cross the ball into the area, etc, etc..

Simply designing your own Tactical Scheme, probably in accordance to your players strengths.

Maybe if you have someone like Riquelme you'd want the team to revolve around him automatically, instead of depending on the one-dimensional "pass and move".

It's just simply having a Tactical option where you can decide Which off-the-ball runs you want your Defenders, Midfielders, and Forwards to use for the most part.

So it wouldn't be about Guessing how the Com will move your players, it'd be more about Knowing how the Com will move your players. Setting a tactical scheme as The Standard for your team's movement.

But besides The Tactical System of your Team.. we should also have in-game options for our tactical plays. In-game tactical decisions to complement with the "tactical scheme" of your team.

Because even with an in-depth tactical system, you will have to make some decisions in the game, you'll have to anticipate.. and anticipating is not properly covered by an in-depth tactical scheme alone.

Anticipation would involve directions, split-second decisions, and for that we would need something else to compliment with The tactical system that will always be in function.

If you are in a Defensive situation, and you want one of your center backs to go to the Left.. that is something that should not be decided by the Com or by a Tactical Scheme. Which is WHY I think that we should have the power of Dictating some things whenever we feel we should.

Maybe if your in a wide position and your just about to cross the ball, you may want your players to execute one of the Practiced tactical plays of your team, maybe you think that would work for that Particular Situation.

It's just about having Variations and Alternatives for whenever you want them, so that the game can offer a better "replay value".


I understand what you're saying, but do you really think this would work for player vs com gaming? A big part of the problem is that a human can always find ways to out-think a machine, and if they gave us the control to decide what runs wingers, etc would make, then I guarantee the first thing that would happen is you would have people on here complaining about how easy it is to beat the com if you set up certain runs in a way that the CPU can't counter. Player vs Player it could be pretty sweet, if it worked, but first things first - fix the online, then give us 11 on 11.
 

sandaweches

Registered User
I agree with iamcanadianeh.
otherwise its like the coach from the sidelines is controlling the players like puppets with strings. just not realistic. I guess with time 11v11 online might be the ultimate challenge. it would certainly require alot of organization, discipline and synchronization.
 

Amateur

Registered User
I understand what you're saying, but do you really think this would work for player vs com gaming? A big part of the problem is that a human can always find ways to out-think a machine, and if they gave us the control to decide what runs wingers, etc would make, then I guarantee the first thing that would happen is you would have people on here complaining about how easy it is to beat the com if you set up certain runs in a way that the CPU can't counter. Player vs Player it could be pretty sweet, if it worked, but first things first - fix the online, then give us 11 on 11.

I really don't see why that would be an issue.. that same thing happens in every PES game to date, you just have to find the formula, but it always happens.

Fix the online first?? Online shouldn't even be a priority by now, online should have been working perfectly by now.

The first thing they need to do is to significantly revolutionize the Gameplay for the better.. otherwise, sales will keep going down.

11 vs 11 will never be as fun as the Classic one-on-one. Playing as a player-manager will always better playing as only One player.

And to be honest, if you like 11 vs 11 so much, you should try practicing Real Football. But why waste all the fantasy that a video game offers on something like 11 vs 11??

I mean, 11 vs 11 is cool and should be introduced sooner or later.. but it shouldn't be a priority. The way I see it NOTHING will ever beat controlling all the players and pulling all the strings, which is something that can only be experienced in a Football Sim.

In my opinion The Gameplay comes first, the 1 vs 1 should be The Priority -and- only after should Konami start thinking about 11 vs 11 and whatever follows.
 

Tech_Skill

Registered User
Then there’s also the clear indication that fans are switching over to FIFA. The astronomical sales EA have mananged with their latest title wouldn’t not of been achieved if PES was in good shape, and FIFA 09 took it’s chance.

So, while PES 2008 was the version that carried the most disappointment it’s actually PES 2009 that had taken the first sales hit the series has suffered since it’s existence. This news, more than any other, should spring Konami into action.

The end.

It cant really be spelled out any clearer can it.

PES 2008 was shite, fans hoped it was a blip, played PES 2009, realized it was no blip, switched sides.
 

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
I really don't see why that would be an issue.. that same thing happens in every PES game to date, you just have to find the formula, but it always happens.

Fix the online first?? Online shouldn't even be a priority by now, online should have been working perfectly by now.

The first thing they need to do is to significantly revolutionize the Gameplay for the better.. otherwise, sales will keep going down.

11 vs 11 will never be as fun as the Classic one-on-one. Playing as a player-manager will always better playing as only One player.

And to be honest, if you like 11 vs 11 so much, you should try practicing Real Football. But why waste all the fantasy that a video game offers on something like 11 vs 11??

I mean, 11 vs 11 is cool and should be introduced sooner or later.. but it shouldn't be a priority. The way I see it NOTHING will ever beat controlling all the players and pulling all the strings, which is something that can only be experienced in a Football Sim.

In my opinion The Gameplay comes first, the 1 vs 1 should be The Priority -and- only after should Konami start thinking about 11 vs 11 and whatever follows.


Ok then. I guess we all have our priorities for what we want in the game most. For some the top item would be untucked shirts(!?), others it would be 360 control, etc., etc. Personally, not being able to play online for the last 2-3 years is the big stinker for me, and in the larger context of this thread... I don't think that not having more control over off-the-ball players is the reason for the slump in sales, nor is it how Seabass is going to see these figures. I think if it indicates anything it is that online failure to launch is hurting sales, and that Fifa growing in stature is doing the same. So... Again, whether you like it or not, those two things will be the first addressed, and in order to beat Fifa next year I think you would have to add 11 v 11 to that list because it's a common wish that has been floating around the community for, well, probably about 6 or more years now. That's not to say that suggestions like yours won't show up in the next PES, but I think it's a damn safe bet to say they aren't at the top of the list.

I know Seabass does in fact have such a list of "to dos" for the series (saw it described in an interview somewhere) and what you're suggesting is surely on it, especially since the Wii version of 08 used similar ideas to good effect, and the cursor options in 09 are a step in that direction as well, so that should give you some hope.

PS - I played footy for many years, at a high level. Sadly, I now need ACL surgery on both knees if I ever want to play again, but that's unlikely to happen and even if it does the waiting list is long and recovery time even longer (probably couldn't play for 2 more years, at which point I will be 33-34 yrs old). I love the game, and for me, being able to play BAL in player cam, especially for the first time in J-League on the PS2, was an amazing experience. It reminded me of that unique experience of being on the pitch, being an individual within a team...

<<tears of nostalgia for my youth>>
 

alonCFC

Registered User
PS - I played footy for many years, at a high level. Sadly, I now need ACL surgery on both knees if I ever want to play again, but that's unlikely to happen and even if it does the waiting list is long and recovery time even longer (probably couldn't play for 2 more years, at which point I will be 33-34 yrs old). I love the game, and for me, being able to play BAL in player cam, especially for the first time in J-League on the PS2, was an amazing experience. It reminded me of that unique experience of being on the pitch, being an individual within a team...

<<tears of nostalgia for my youth>>

is this problem called "osgood shlaters" by any chance?
 

Winger

Registered User
Yeah, I tried it, but I thought it was terrible, to be honest. Just the control side of things I think is better suited to a single player game in BAL than in BAP, but maybe I'll give BAP another go. Again, though, I think the issue is about personal taste. I understand what Konami is doing - trying to get you to carry the team on your back, and I'm not sure I would appreciate it as much if it my teammates always won the games for me... I think they want you to be like Maradona at Napoli than a small part of a great team. One could say that I'm making this into an excuse for "bad AI" but the little things about the way the game is designed, like the fact that your team obviously plays at a slightly lower level than the opponents AI makes me think the game is designed that way on purpose.

What you're alluding to with the analogy of Maradona at Napoli could be recreated in BAL by simply choosing to play for a smaller club. There is no need to make every team the human controlled player joins become somewhat inferior to the opposition to make it more of a struggle, when that can be decided through choice of difficulty and choice of team.

Again, if realism was focused on it would be a simple choice between joining a team such as Manchester United if one wanted to play with a group of equally talented individuals where you are more so part of a winning team, playing your part (which will sometimes he telling, and other times simply a part well played) in a much grander scheme of things, rather than the big fish in a small pond was one to play for a bottom half/relegation side where the team rise and fall depending solely on what the human controlled player achieves. It would also be easier to keep your position in the latter team, than if one played for Manchester United were quality players were in abundance, meaning should your form dip you're back on the bench, or out the door.
 

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
What you're alluding to with the analogy of Maradona at Napoli could be recreated in BAL by simply choosing to play for a smaller club. There is no need to make every team the human controlled player joins become somewhat inferior to the opposition to make it more of a struggle, when that can be decided through choice of difficulty and choice of team.

Again, if realism was focused on it would be a simple choice between joining a team such as Manchester United if one wanted to play with a group of equally talented individuals where you are more so part of a winning team, playing your part (which will sometimes he telling, and other times simply a part well played) in a much grander scheme of things, rather than the big fish in a small pond was one to play for a bottom half/relegation side where the team rise and fall depending solely on what the human controlled player achieves. It would also be easier to keep your position in the latter team, than if one played for Manchester United were quality players were in abundance, meaning should your form dip you're back on the bench, or out the door.

Good points.

I was meaning to get at what Konami meant to do, rather than suggesting it's perfect, but in that regard I do have some measure of respect for what they were trying to do, and think they pulled it off relatively well (the game is playable after all, but you end up having to play in a certain way to succeed).

The down side is that what they have done creates is a game which encourages you to be more selfish in your play. In fact, I've found that's the only real way to get top ratings and win the big awards (encouraging you to play like C Ronaldo as opposed to Fabregas). I hope in 2010 they make it so that you are encouraged to be more of a team player in BAL, even though in real life the hotdogs like Ronaldo do often get the awards (though his team is a strong one as well). One way they could do this is to have teamwork grow more from match exp by playing your role well and completing passes, as opposed to having it as a stengthen point option linked with balance, which is bollocks. Good teamwork ratings could also translate into having your teammates play batter, or something like that... Anyway, I think the whole "strengthen" system needs to be tossed out and changed back to something more like what it was in Fantasista... and yes, I'd put that at #3 on my list :happy:.
 

sandaweches

Registered User
personally, I enjoy the game more when I play as team. more passing assists and if I get the chance I go for goal but that reflects my playing style in real football games. I really don't like to dribble all over the place even if that meant better scores. First it does not reflect the true nature of dribbling in real life as switching directions and shoot/cancel dummy is easy to pull off after a while. Second, I'm not too much into making the player of the year or whatever award I just like to enjoying some nice football moments and if by playing my style i end up with awards then great.

But I agree that BAL is a nice feature and a nice step towards first person football games. I'm sure it will improve in time.

iamcanadianeh, how did you get used to the player cam on BAL. it's tough.
 

trigglebeef

Registered User
personally, I enjoy the game more when I play as team. more passing assists and if I get the chance I go for goal but that reflects my playing style in real football games. I really don't like to dribble all over the place even if that meant better scores. First it does not reflect the true nature of dribbling in real life as switching directions and shoot/cancel dummy is easy to pull off after a while. Second, I'm not too much into making the player of the year or whatever award I just like to enjoying some nice football moments and if by playing my style i end up with awards then great.

But I agree that BAL is a nice feature and a nice step towards first person football games. I'm sure it will improve in time.

iamcanadianeh, how did you get used to the player cam on BAL. it's tough.

BAP slips a big fat one up BAL when it comes to gameplay though at the end of the day. My teammates do my swede in on BAL and it in no way resembles real football to any degree. It's crip.
 

byondthought

Registered User
Im disappointed with some of the things 2009 has done, but it will not stop me getting hold of 2010 and giving it atleast a month of play..pes/iss etc has been encoded into my head and hands for too long for me to say, they could make 10 shit games and i would still give the 11th a good go, same can be said for most football fans i bet...unfortunately for Konami, Fifa now gives me a choice of who gets my money

I think Konami is managed(not developed) by monkeys.. it seems they have lost focus of how real football ticks a little...just make a good game and we will buy it, dont waste money on messi doing your adverts and stupid licenses you can edit anyway !!!!

i'm sure that even those who love 2009 can see that there are some things that just dont feel right, it may well be that 2009(like 2001) is just a starting block for an amazing future, BUT, when i try and look ahead to where the race could go i dont see only pes now...
 

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
is this problem called "osgood shlaters" by any chance?

Nope. My anterior and medial ligaments are just all torn to pieces from years of playing. Ligaments don't ever really heal, so it's like I have nothing holding my knees together, so if I turn fast... "POP!"

To fix this they need to get in there and tighten the ligaments (staples I believe), takes about 3-6 months to recover.
 

alonCFC

Registered User
Nope. My anterior and medial ligaments are just all torn to pieces from years of playing. Ligaments don't ever really heal, so it's like I have nothing holding my knees together, so if I turn fast... "POP!"

To fix this they need to get in there and tighten the ligaments (staples I believe), takes about 3-6 months to recover.

my problem is that one of my knee bones grows faster than the other bones, so in a couple of years i wouldn't be able to bend my knee, so i might need to go with a walker and i thing that makes my knees not move or something like that... im playing football for 8 years so it would be very sad for me to stop playing...
 

iamcanadianeh

Registered User
iamcanadianeh, how did you get used to the player cam on BAL. it's tough.

I was talking about my first experience on Fantasista in the J-League series on PS2. I am disappointed in the player cam on PES 09 to some degree. In some ways it is better, and in others it's not as good. Basically, I find the game in general too difficult to play in player cam with success in 09. Mind you, I haven't tried it for a while and since I've gotten better I might giver a go again :cool:

My hope is that they don't get rid of this cam, and that in next years version the game mechanics and AI are different enough that it works well. If EA are smart they'll latch onto the idea of using the player cam to good effect and steal this idea - to turn this mode into what I think it was intended to be in the first place - a soccer FPS (I base this assumption on the fact that player cam was the default camera in Fantasista).
 
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