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Pro Evo 5: What do you want in the next game?

ScousEvolution

Registered User
Saan,

I think you're off the mark there mate.

The debate is raging on and on about whether to use cameras to determine whether players have scored, fouled, or whatever else. And it is for the very reason that too many controversial incidents are happening. roy carrol's horrendous mistake earlier this year is a perfect example.

What I'm saying is- Why would you want to replicate the bad points of the game which people are trying to eradicate in the real game? the answer is, you wouldn't.
 

Madrileno

Registered User
I agree with SAAN to have mistakes done by reffs and linesmen but the game must have different type of referees, those who are rubbish and make you angry all time and those who are world class referees just like in real life we have COLLINA and we have MORENO.
 

Saan

Registered User
ScousEvolution said:
Saan,

I think you're off the mark there mate.

The debate is raging on and on about whether to use cameras to determine whether players have scored, fouled, or whatever else. And it is for the very reason that too many controversial incidents are happening. roy carrol's horrendous mistake earlier this year is a perfect example.

What I'm saying is- Why would you want to replicate the bad points of the game which people are trying to eradicate in the real game? the answer is, you wouldn't.

Valid point and i respect yours and everyone's opinion on this but to develop my point further i think inconsistent decision-making is a massive part of football. Fair enough, FIFA and the FA and pretty much every other footballing body are trying to make the game better by considering introducing television replays and what-have-you and yes, you're right that replicating bad points of the game which are trying to be eradicated is silly but if you want Pro Evolution Soccer to be perfect then it's got to represent the game of football near perfect and in that, there are decisions incorrectly made which, decide the match no matter if they are right or wrong.

Remember that the word "perfect" means it cannot be faulted nor can it be bettered. Perfection does not exist therefore if football was perfect then every decision would be correct on every account.

OK, so being hard done by is a bitch - we can see all see that, but it shall remain in the game with or without replays to help referees. Some referees are as dumb as shit. Andy D'urso anybody? Even Collina's not perfect in some people's eyes. My other examples include Pedro Mendes, Urs Meire's decision ruling Sol Campbell's header out against Portugal at last year's Euros and Scholes' "phantom" offside against Porto. Were they the wrong decision(s)? Absolutely! All part of life? Very much so! Football's all part of life and to some it means the world, match-teetering decisions would just place emphasis on the value of winning a game.

Yes, I totally agree with what you are saying about the installation of cameras and television replays to help with the referees but all i am saying is that a game of football will never be perfectly refereed - someone'll always be let down; with or without the aid of technological visuals. And if football DOES become perfectly refereed one day, then those cynics and sadists who want to see loyal bands of supporters suffer will complain so in the end...

No-one's satisfied!​
 

ScousEvolution

Registered User
I understand where you're coming from. Basically you want to replicate the inconsistency of the real game to make it more realistic.

But there is a big problem there - Computer games are not always designed to replicate every real life situation, and for some valid reasons too.

Real life is real life, and video games are video games.

You could argue all day about whether to introduce cameras into the real game. Many people would say that it adds to the drama of a big occasion. Others think it allows wrong decisions to determine the whole futures of some clubs.

Both sides are right, because obviously there are times when you are on the wrong end of a dodgy decision which has cost you a big trophy or 3 vital points, and swear blind that you think there should never be another game played until cameras are introduced. But there are times when you win something like the champions league, and have benefited from an incorrect decision. Then you breathe a huge sigh of relief that your wishes for the introduction of cameras were not granted.

You see, real life football is more than just a game. To many people it is the next most important thing to their direct family. Here in Liverpool we came top of a poll of votes cast for football, when asked what the next most important thing to our family's well being was. Football is without doubt more than just a game.

And it's for this reason that you can't expect such a decision to be made so freely.

Pro evolution is, whilst a very addictive and competitive one, still just a game. And games have to stay close to what makes them work best. And being at the mercy of something which clearly didn't happen is not going to go down very well with those who know that what they're playing is supposed ot be exactly that - a game.

Here's the best way I can put it in a nutshell.

When decisions go against you in real life, you can put it down to exactly that - real life. Or human error. You can debate the ins and outs of it all, from the referee himself to the linesman or the club you are playing against being a dirty bunch of gits. But if a decision goes against you on a game, you only have one thing to debate, and that's the quality of the game. And If you knew the mistakes were part of an actual plan to make the game more realistic, then I'm 100 % sure that, after a few games which were somewhat randomised by stupid decisions, you'd be questioning the wisdom of such a move.

Imagine playing through 12 rounds of a boxing game which you had clearly dominated, only to lose because of a load of dodgy las vegas judges. Or be on the last level of a game where you had been shot, and be just about to complete the level only to drop dead from blood loss at the very end.

Whilst these touches would undoubtadly be what could be construed as more realistic, they would also be a whole load more frustrating. And detract from the overall quality and enjoyment of the game.

If you were able to turn random decisions on and off, then I would be all in favour of that. As it would at least add novelty value if nothing else.
 

ScousEvolution

Registered User
This is something I should have put in the original reply, because I think it is very relevant, especially to those who argue about the pros and cons of fifa.

Basically, random decisions take the element of control away from us. And one thing we pro evo fans all pride ourselves on is the fact that pro evo is miles ahead of the likes of fifa in terms of individual player skill level and style.

As we have always said, in Pro evo you have to evolve, fifa you can just pick up and play. So in a sense our biggest argument againt fifa is that you have less room for control and improvement in that game, whilst pro evo offers you the chance to improve your game infinitely. That in itself makes the game so much more realistic than it's fully liscenced competitor.

I actualy think that anything which make games more random, and in turn throw results into the hands of fate, makes the game less realistic. Not more.
 

ScousEvolution

Registered User
Anyway, I've often thought about how the game could be improved, right since I started playing it back in the day.

Now I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread, so if I reopeat some of the stuff that's already been said then apologies. But I reckon I've come up with a few suggestions which would benefit the game greatly.

First things first though. The one thing that has plagued the whole series of pro evo games since it's conception - tackling.

There are few things more enjoyable in a game than when you chase back a player from the middle of the park, and put a great sliding tackle on him to stop him in his tracks and put a counter attack in motion. But for some weird and unknown reason, the fellas at konami have never ever managed to get this very important aspect of the game right.

Now inconstency is one thing. I mean, you can't expect the decision to be the right one every single time without fail. But the way the evo game engine handles tackling is one of the mysteries of modern man.

Time after time you are punished for perfectly clean tackles, simply because they were from the side or behind an opponent. Now, in your head, you put this down to the fact that shit happens. I mean, you can expect the odd decision to go against the defender. But then you see a defender completely miss the ball by miles, and take out the player in possesion, with no consequence whatsoever.

Now this happens in football, so you can't complain too much. But the more you play it, the more you realise that it is not simply a case of inconsistency, but a pretty big game flaw. For some weird reason, you are much more likely to escape if you do not make any contact with the ball, than if you win the thing cleanly.

The fact that pro evo is so spectacular anyway despite such a problem is testament to just how good the rest of the game is.

Basically, the collision detection or whatever it is that determines what is and what isn't a foul needs to be built up a lot. There is simply no excuse for going into number 5, loading it up, playing half way through a 20 minute game, and saying to your mate: "they still haven't sorted the friggin tackling".

No excuse whatsoever.

Next thing I would like to see is a lot more control over your shots. And this is where I go back to the days of virtua soccer (is that what it was called?) where you could control the exact angle, dip, lift, and swerve of your shot. I thought it was fantastic, and gave the player complete control over the ball. Sending a shot into the top corner of the net after you knew you had put it there yourself was a joyus experience.

Now I don't think pro evolution could, or should, bring the exact same control mechanisms into play. But what is without doubt in my mind is that the one aspect of the game which is very much arcade as oppose to simulation is the shooting.

Ok, so you can choose which corner you want to aim for, and how high approximately you want it to go. But other than that you have control over very little else.

I think that this would not only go a long way to improving the realism and control of the game, but would settle a massive portion of the goalkeeping problems also.

Think about it. The goaly argument is always going to be there. Sometimes the keeper will pull of a save from a blinding angle which he should never have got to. And other times he will let one under his armpit which anyone should have caught.

But if each goalkeeper had a specific radius of how far he could dive, based on his jumping stat. And how likely he is to make contact with his hand if he gets there, based on his keeping skills stat, then you would have a clear idea of what you had to do to beat him. From long range at least. Then a rocket from someone like carlos which is an inch inside the post, is rewarded with a goal. Whilst one which is a mere couple of feet from the centre of the goal is duly gobbled up by a keeper of any quality.

And this is where the goalkeeping could also be improved.

There is no stat for catching, or a keeper's tendency to catch as oppose to punch. Yet this is one of the most important thing in goalkeeping.

In real life Some keepers flap at crosses which they should catch, whilst some keepers catch what others would drop. But in pro evo there seems to be very very little difference in style between one keeper and another.

I haven't got time to add to this, but there are a few other things to add.

Be back later.
 

reece

Banned
Incredible post saan , i would luv it if all of those things were included on pes5. I want a create a ref option in edit mode and a choice of who sponsors ure master league team e.g nike and vodafone.
 

orkyben

Knucklehead McSpazatron
Jesus ScousEvolution....that must be the longest post ever to grace these forums. Really good points made as well. I for one am desperate to see the goalkeeping things improved as well. I think teh shooting side of the game could be improved as well but it doenst need overcomplicating - for new players they need a simple style to score goals.
 

discoalla

Registered User
I think the computer should stop being so jammy and winning 90% of the loose balls and don't even get me started on the free kicks they get for the same tackles you just did. Drives me MAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

]NikE[

-=BoPPeR=-
Very nice opinions up there i must say,the keeper problem has to be one of the first to be resolved and what you've suggested seems about right! looking forward to more from you!

NikE
 

tommyc1

Registered User
first i would love weird things to happen like a guy in the thread said, that would be good.

also i hate it when a player is a 1cm offside walking back onside while you pass it to a differant onside player, yet offside is given against the other player.

if you are going to have classic players you need classic teams.

third kit definalty, i hate it when no matter what you do your kit clashes. e.g. blue and white kit for home and full white for away, which will be exactly the same as the opposing team.

you should be able to put a proper sponsor on your shirt for whatever shirt you do, e.g. stripes with a carlsberg logo across the middle to make it look more official.

talking about stripes, what the hell happened to them in pro evo 4 editor?

anyway am not complaining anymore because this is the greatest game of all time!
 

]NikE[

-=BoPPeR=-
I just hope the Editing mode is improved on even more,i loved the fact you could do all that,i made a team called "tayside" with myself and mates in it and i made a cracking team strip and badge,ill try get pics ,im so proud lol!

NikE
 

Harry-Kewell

Registered User
I noticed a flaw in the game the other day. I was playing as France and I had been given a free-kick just outside my area and I experienced something that was incredibly weird. Silvestre, my centre-back, was all the way up the pitch standing between two of the opposition centre-backs. Initially I didn't think much of it and I attempted to rectify the problem by changing the kicker. However, amazingly, Silvestre was still up there. I ended up taking the free-kick with Silvestre in the end after going through all the players because otherwise he just wasn't going to come down.

Anyways, back to the point that I was going to make. Zonal free-kicks. They have to and have to revert back to how it was in the previous version. The number of times I have to change the kick taker is absurd. Players that are playing in a particular zone should take free-kicks from that spot. I don't want to see Morientes taking free-kicks from outside his own area! The same goes with the throw-ins as well. Full-backs should be taking them. They should set it as default.

With the way the throw-ins are taken, I've heard that they're going to change it back to the old technique. I'm glad because I've lost possession countless times with the current system.
 

ScousEvolution

Registered User
Right, haven't got much time at the minute but I will add this to what I posted before. It is about the one aspect which is, ahead of anything else in my opinion, the most unrealistic thing about the whole game - The player positioning immediately after foulis.

No matter how many players are commited to an attack, when there is a foul suddenly everyone is back in defence.

This totally nullifies any advantage you should have for being fouled and winning a free kick, and should definately have been sorted out by pro evo 5. Once again, there is no real excuse if it's not.

Solving this problem opens up a whole new dimension which is a massive part of the real game, and takes away the huge advantage which is to be gained by cheating.

For example - It is the 90th minute, you're 1-0 down, you've have been on the defensive, and you launch a counter attack. It's probably your last attack of the game, and you have the chance to score a dramatic equaliser, You're running clean through and are three on three with your mate's defence.

This type of situation is what makes games like pro evo so good. They provide nervous endings and knife edge games.

But in all of the pro evos so far, some of this has been taken away by the ridiculous thing that happens as soon as you are awarded a free kick.

You see, your mate will just bring you down, knowing full well that by the time the camera has switched to free kick mode, all of his players will have miraculously returned back to their own half of the field.

Ok, It's a dirty tactic, but it is something which we all do, and is something which happens in the real game. But in the pro evo series the dirty tactic is rewarded by the offender getting to start again with all his men back in defence.

What pro evolution needs badly, and what makes the real game of footy so much more exciting, is the quick free kick.

If a player is fouled, he should have the option of holding L1 or L2 etc, right as he is fouled, and instead of the game changing to the free kick mode, the person who is fouled will grab the ball, and play a quick pass so none of the momentum of the attack is lost, and all the players are still running back from the positions they were when the foul was commited.

This also ties in with the other thing that needs bringing in - the proffesional foul.

Like I said just then, if you are breaking away, or if you are being counter attacked, the option is there ot simply bring the player down and sometimes nothing will happen. Not even a yellow card.

And how many times have you played games where the last man was fouled by the defender, but the defender wasn't sent off?

Once again, too many times to mention.

A player who fouls to prevent a counter attack, should be punished by a yellow card. And when you blatantly bring someone doewn because they are bearing down on goal, you should be sent off every time.

These things prevent goals, and change games, so they shoul dbe sorted out before the next serving of evolution.

There are other things, but I'll add them tomorrow.
 

zilch182

Banned
What i want...

First of all..guys, i think you should be the PES developing team at Konami, it'd be flawless. Specially you Saan.

Anyway i'd like

World Cup, Euro 2004 etc QUALIFYING!
A couple of ideas ive pulled off the other 16 pages we have are
Scenarios (like on Tiger Woods) eg. 85TH MINUTE AUSTRALIA 0-0 NEW ZEALAND KEWWWWWWEEEEELLLLLLLLL WHAT A GOAL!

Bit of patriotism there.

Being asked to join other clubs as manager.

Get rid of player development. I'm so sick of buying a gun player, Gerrard for example. In 2 seasons he became a dud. And its so frustrating watching my expensive players become nothing more than players worthy of PES United or Winning Eleven United!

Players leaving the club if they have been left on the bench and joining other clubs (I'm sorry Steven Gerrard but, YOU'RE A DUD!)

Bring back Euro All Stars and World All Stars

Since i have an Xbox i would like to see Pro Evo 1,2 and possibly 3 put in the game pack. Like what THQ did with Doom 3 by adding Doom 1+2 with it.

Make it more realistic by refs and linesmen making wrong decisions.

Back to the scenarios thing. If its a match between two teams with some famous history. E.G Engalnd - Argentina. Can't you see Crespo jumping up and playing volleyball inside the box? Or Zidane in the 'WEFA' Championships Final doing some awesome volley.

And yes OF COURSE Fully licensed teams and players. It also wouldnt hurt too have editable balls and boots.

And thats my 2 cents.

I look forward to hearing your feedback.
 

Madrileno

Registered User
ScousEvolution I like ur posts , ur a pure example of what an PES gamer is : A mature person witch loves soccer and is kean on the real things that make a soccer game.
 

Saan

Registered User
ScousEvolution - you know EXACTLY what you're talking about. You should storm Konami HQ and demand a spot on the Pro Evolution Soccer developing team.

Anyway, to what you said... The quick free kick addition would be amazing because as you rightly said, the whole point of a free kick is to get possession and an advantage but this is made completely useless in every PES as by the time the camera’s faded in and out, the whole team’s back in position. However I have noticed that sometimes when the ball goes out of play by say your left-back and he’s by the opposition goal, he’s seen tracking back which is to say, fairly realistic. But holding down L1 or L2 is such a good idea, I really hope to see that installed. I was thinking you could hold down X when you’re fouled and that’d be a short pass. Triangle’d be a quick through ball, circle’d be a quick chip pass…?

If the offside rule is to be made more effective then like tommyc1 said, it should be more realistic in that players walking back from offside positions should be caught out less often. When flagged for offside and you see the replay of your player being no more than a few cm’s offside it’s frustrating because in real time that is impossible for the officials to get right.

Harry-Kewell (the user, not the man himself) brought up zonal free kicks which is another very valid point. Why have your centre forward taking a free kick by your own penalty area?? And same goes for throw in’s. There should be an option for you to decide who takes free kicks in which areas.

The speed of the game is good but I think on the counter-attack it should be played at the speed which Arsenal attack from end to end. The game should speed up a little bit for the counter attack because that’s what catches the opposition off guard.

That’s all for now ladies and gents, I’ll add some more things when I finish playing my 32nd season in Master League…
 
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