StringerBell
Registered User
Well technically speaking neither have you and when I play the demo later on today its still not the finished product. The 2nd demo is the game breaker.
Demo gameplay First Impressions
- Thread starter Makavelian
- Start date
Well technically speaking neither have you and when I play the demo later on today its still not the finished product. The 2nd demo is the game breaker.
ROTFL!
That is a great way to filter out them out ...hahahhahahahaha
You are so funny....
:jongcrymore:
mahanddeem
Registered User
To say the truth about this demo ...
Although it is a beta demo , one can say it's not 100% a complete game and that's true but we can , at least mentally , compensate for that so if we assume it's 70-75% of the final game , I would be worried that the final game would not be as solid as when PES2011 came out ... After around 5-6 games with the new demo today I played PES2011 and it is much more well built than this demo...The ball physics are awsome and the players' movment are much more solid...I was happy with the early reviews and expectations , now I'm not sure....
Although it is a beta demo , one can say it's not 100% a complete game and that's true but we can , at least mentally , compensate for that so if we assume it's 70-75% of the final game , I would be worried that the final game would not be as solid as when PES2011 came out ... After around 5-6 games with the new demo today I played PES2011 and it is much more well built than this demo...The ball physics are awsome and the players' movment are much more solid...I was happy with the early reviews and expectations , now I'm not sure....
Dribbling System has not changed much...
Although the game looks promising this year, it is not hard to realize that the animations have not changed by much over the last 4 years.
Dribbling still needs fixing where the ball seems to magnetized to the players foot and path of dribbling.
here is a vid of 2010 that resembles 2012 gameplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXm1ub7VDhg
here is a vid of 2009 that also resembles 2012 gameplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul_aHLoGlhQ
Although the game looks promising this year, it is not hard to realize that the animations have not changed by much over the last 4 years.
Dribbling still needs fixing where the ball seems to magnetized to the players foot and path of dribbling.
here is a vid of 2010 that resembles 2012 gameplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXm1ub7VDhg
here is a vid of 2009 that also resembles 2012 gameplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul_aHLoGlhQ
Amateur
Registered User
To be fair or at least objective, no footy video game has ever offered "360 degree dribbling" to date. The fact of the matter is very simple, if directing the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button is enough to move your player through space, you simply cannot have "360 degree dribbling" due to obvious reasons.
Therefore, yes, as always, the freedom is cut out, you only get a couple of generic directions but you do not get anywhere near "360 degree dribbling". It's not only a PES thing, FIFA is the same exact case but with "smoother" animations.
To be honest, I was looking forwards to the new off the ball movement feature, but the demo videos have reminded me why PES11 is accumulating dust somewhere on the house.... it's just not enough anymore, the cracks are more noticeable with each passing year regardless of Konami's best efforts; the old fundamental flaws, the nonexistence of movement within the space, scripted gameplay, remain the same as ever.
Just can't get excited about the video game when the videos show quite clearly, that it isn't worth $50 bucks, considering it clearly is a very expensive PES11.5 patch.
I would be excited by a footy sim where you can actually direct the pass without the necessity of simultaneously directing your movement as well. The fact that with PES and FIFA directing movement and directing passing is determined by directing the left analog stick without the assistance of any other button, just tells you how SCRIPTED the video game needs to be.
To be honest, again, I'm just fucking bored of the same old pre heated SCRIPTED arcade shit. I really hope a third party comes out from the middle of nowhere and exposes just how outdated PES and FIFA are; it's gotten to the point where we have these powerful consoles such as the PS3 yet the most that Konami can do is improve the AI.
The fans do not even consider FUNDAMENTAL improvements as something realistic, because Konami can only offer yearly tweaks at $50 dollars a pop; the fans have accepted the fact that Konami just wants to make money by making easy updates on a yearly basis, with PES11 Konami introduced a shit passing system that offers absolutely nothing truly revolutionary, with PES12 Konami improved the AI although it is not exactly difficult to improve on retarded AI, etc, etc.
It's just boring at this point, it's fucking year 2012 and all we have seen so far is a stupid and pretentious passing system and improved AI, yet the core of the game remains a PS2 era arcade game.
That's gotta be the best comment that I've read in a very long time.... Some rep is deserved!
shaun7
Registered User
The animations are not good. That's true, But at least this year, pes gets better animation linking and the transitions between 2 animations is finally smooth.
The close control is abit too good. Yes I admit that.
But some people just can't defend in pes 12. That's for sure.
You can't pressure like crazy and since there's no catch up bug, it is even harder to pressure like a maniac.
So you have to use the AI pressure wisely, and use the jockey systems to close down the CPU's spaces. Time the tackles too.
I am no expert at defending yet, but I am getting better game after game.
Oh and to master this game, I had to play it at regular, just to learn the tricks and the defending. When I feel that my defending and attacking have improved, I'll go on another level.
Reminded me of pes 6 tbh. People are forgetting that pes 6 had that close control and those perfectly timed tackles that pes 12 has.
Overall I am begining to like the demo more and more I think. So any of you finding it difficult, play on regular, learn the defending options and attacking one too, then play it on another level.
It does work.
BTW, THIS DEMO FEEL VERY UNFINISHED. I hope the 2nd demo feels better.
1 more thing. DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE AI cheating. I will complain myself probably too, BUT, an AI can never outsmart a human because humans program them, so we can outsmart them. The only way that the AI can beat you is to cheat. It's a matter of how well they hide it.
brunosebalo
Registered User
Dribbling is way to responsive, I played Porto x Napoli and Lavezzi was some kind of Adriano from 06 mixed with Arshavin in 2011 game, so unreal, the speed merchant card is way to powerful, Konami should at least create a new card like super defender or something like that to compensate.
the referees are like they should be,so far every tackle from behind or that did not hit the ball was a yellow or red card.
the movement off the ball on the attack has really improved, the defenders will also track back the attack player running and try to follow it, still sometimes I felt like the defender should have closed down more quickly since the attack player was standing in front of the box, but, hey, it also happens on real life football.
Teammate control seems good, I have to work on it though, and the skills challenge is a lot of fun ,been playing more than the actual game lol
Catch up bug is gone, those endless motions when you are knock out off the ball are also gone, matter fact I found really hard to knock the A.I(Lavezzi) off the ball.
I know is just the first demo, but IMHO from the attack perspective, it feels just like fifa, I could do some crazy things with robinho+close control, I know it happens on real life football, but is just annoying to be able to pull it off everytime I have possesion of the ball.
Overall there is improvement from 2011 but in some areas konami did it too much, specially the dribbling IMHO.
Waiting for the next demo.
the referees are like they should be,so far every tackle from behind or that did not hit the ball was a yellow or red card.
the movement off the ball on the attack has really improved, the defenders will also track back the attack player running and try to follow it, still sometimes I felt like the defender should have closed down more quickly since the attack player was standing in front of the box, but, hey, it also happens on real life football.
Teammate control seems good, I have to work on it though, and the skills challenge is a lot of fun ,been playing more than the actual game lol
Catch up bug is gone, those endless motions when you are knock out off the ball are also gone, matter fact I found really hard to knock the A.I(Lavezzi) off the ball.
I know is just the first demo, but IMHO from the attack perspective, it feels just like fifa, I could do some crazy things with robinho+close control, I know it happens on real life football, but is just annoying to be able to pull it off everytime I have possesion of the ball.
Overall there is improvement from 2011 but in some areas konami did it too much, specially the dribbling IMHO.
Waiting for the next demo.
Amateur
Registered User
The animations are not good. That's true, But at least this year, pes gets better animation linking and the transitions between 2 animations is finally smooth.
The close control is abit too good. Yes I admit that.
But some people just can't defend in pes 12. That's for sure.
You can't pressure like crazy and since there's no catch up bug, it is even harder to pressure like a maniac.
So you have to use the AI pressure wisely, and use the jockey systems to close down the CPU's spaces. Time the tackles too.
I am no expert at defending yet, but I am getting better game after game.
Oh and to master this game, I had to play it at regular, just to learn the tricks and the defending. When I feel that my defending and attacking have improved, I'll go on another level.
Reminded me of pes 6 tbh. People are forgetting that pes 6 had that close control and those perfectly timed tackles that pes 12 has.
Overall I am begining to like the demo more and more I think. So any of you finding it difficult, play on regular, learn the defending options and attacking one too, then play it on another level.
It does work.
BTW, THIS DEMO FEEL VERY UNFINISHED. I hope the 2nd demo feels better.
1 more thing. DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT THE AI cheating. I will complain myself probably too, BUT, an AI can never outsmart a human because humans program them, so we can outsmart them. The only way that the AI can beat you is to cheat. It's a matter of how well they hide it.
The problem is that from afar I have already identified PES12 as a remake of PES6, the problem is, at least in my case, that a remake of PES6 just isn't nearly good enough anymore. I think we should have seen PES12 two years ago.
As for AI CHEATING.... I disagree with you, try playing a CHESS computer game against the computer on the most difficult level, I guarantee you that if you are not an excellent Chess player you could easily be outwitted by a computer, yet the computer CANNOT actually cheat.
The fact that with PES and FIFA, the computer can only outsmart you by cheating you, is evidence of the fact that PES and FIFA are incredibly outdated. Surely, if the system was more up to date, the computer would not need to cheat in order to outsmart you. The PES and FIFA system is dumb and outdated, as simple as that.
Yeah it also happens in real life football, but since PES is supposed to be or at least pretends to be a video game, the gamer should really have control over defensive mistakes.
For example, if pressing the shooting button before the opponent has his first touch after a pass was made, is the factor that will determine if the defender closed down more quickly or if the defender did not closed down quickly enough; that would be cool, because it means that whenever the defender makes a mistake, it's because as a gamer you made a mistake.
Though that's not the case with PES and FIFA, the case with PES and FIFA is that the computer decides everything that concerns tactical play for you; it's a hockey game on a bigger pitch, zero tactics, end to end nonsense.
shaun7
Registered User
A chess is a 100% mind game with a set of rules to follow. So it's easy to make the AI floow them and always make the best move ahead.
A football game works nothing like that. A football game is more diverse sicne you have more teams, more players, more individuality, formations, substitutions, etc.. But that's not the point. The point it that the AI is programmed by a human, so we can always outsmart the AI in games (not these mind games because as I said, those work with a set of rules so the AI can easily choose the best move to pull off everytime it's his turn).
I know it can cheat less in football games though, but we will never get that AI where it never cheats in football games. WHY? Because it's programed by humans themselves, so we can always outthink them.
I agree however that pes and fifa follow an old formula. Thing is, that they both haven't perfected it yet, so they cannot move on.
The games need more user input.
Amateur
Registered User
PES could and in my opinion should be divided into two completely different games: the mind game and the technical game.
The mind game would determine the amount of space that the attacker would have by the time he has his first touch on the ball; the technical game would obviously determine dribbling and man marking when the defender gets close enough to the ball carrier, etc.
The fact is whether you can accept it or not, that with the correct system the computer could be intelligent enough to choose instead of cheat: press the short passing button, the through pass button, the shooting button, before the opponent has his first touch on the ball after each pass is made.
The mentioned controls, would be the equivalent of three different decisions that the computer or gamer can choose per pass, three different decisions that can only be used ONCE at a time (similar to Chess), therefore making it possible for a more difficult computer to make the right decisions, as opposed to an easy computer making the wrong decisions.
PES and FIFA do not offer that level of substance, it's not about making the correct choice, PES and FIFA offer you THREE different choices at the same time, therefore effectively breaking the whole game because the gamer has no control over the defensive/tactical end of the game.
I'm talking about the gamer choosing ONE option out of three when not in possession of the ball; if the gamer makes the correct choices at the right time, the gamer closes in on the ball carrier and makes it more difficult for the ball carrier.
Therefore, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to cheat, because mistakes would be triggered by decisions made by the gamer as opposed to decisions made by the computer.
To further clarify, I am not talking about directing the left analog stick towards the position that the ball carrier occupies, I am talking about something more substantial that would actually require at least some degree of critical thought, as opposed to just reacting without thinking by simply directing the left analog stick towards the position that the ball carrier occupies.
To date, the tactical game is just complete and utter nonsense, making the game scripted; getting close to the ball carrier does not require any type of critical thought, because the tactical game is completely scripted, the gamer merely reacts in accordance to the script by simply directing the left analog stick towards the position that the ball carrier occupies.
Which is why your use of the term "football game" is completely irrelevant to me, I do not consider PES a "football game", I consider PES a basketball game on a football pitch precisely because of how it functions. As far as I'm concerned, PES is closer to being a hockey simulation than it is to being a football simulation.
Furthermore, I disagree with you again, I think Konami has perfected the old formula: PES5 and PES6.
What happens when you continue perfecting a formula that can no longer be perfected? Your empire starts falling apart piece by piece: PES08, PES09, PES10, etc, etc.
Therefore, I think Konami and indeed EA Sports (FIFA09) have already perfected the old formula that they continue milking. It's just that it is much more convenient for them to just continue adding irrelevant gimmicks that create the illusion of progress or perfection, when in fact they are just going around in circles, because it's much more profitable to never reach a conclusion.
To be honest, I do not consider the discussed argument debatable, I think it is indeed a FACT that Konami and EA Sports have already perfected the old formula, they simply have not moved on because not moving on makes a lot more money for them.
In any case, at least we agree on the general point: the game needs more user input. I'm just giving my two cents as to how more user input could and should be achieved.
oh boy, konami what have you done?
I am terribly dissapointed with the demo. You took the soul and passion that made pes unique and turned it into an arcadey game. The passes are now worse than pes 2011 with the ball floatey and hardly reaching the players, then it trickles past the keeper in slow motion and into the back of the net 30 yds away from goal, the player turn and move defying laws of physics, all in all it looks like a bad copy of fifa 05, which I played when I was a kid. And the nets, if the nets in real life are like these then I'm blind. It all looks like when fifa incorporated their 3d game in Fifa Manager, take a look at that and see if I'm right.
What hapened? You were heading in the right direction Konami with the game last year. the passes were fine, yes the AI needed improvement and the shooting some tweaking here and there, but instead you changed gear and headed into the past. i don't know if you try to please pes fans with a pes 6 feel buty I'm afarid those times are gone, need to move on.
All pes needed last year was just improvements on the part of AI (defending) team mate AI, improve the nets, the shooting and the the off-pitch atmosphere (Master league- with live feeds from other games, transfers, managers - for me anyway) and other modes.
I used to be a fifa fan until 2008 when Fifa pissed on the pc version and regurgited some old shit, and then, discovered the beauty of pes (a game which has or had soul)don't turn into fifa, konami, seabass.
I am terribly dissapointed with the demo. You took the soul and passion that made pes unique and turned it into an arcadey game. The passes are now worse than pes 2011 with the ball floatey and hardly reaching the players, then it trickles past the keeper in slow motion and into the back of the net 30 yds away from goal, the player turn and move defying laws of physics, all in all it looks like a bad copy of fifa 05, which I played when I was a kid. And the nets, if the nets in real life are like these then I'm blind. It all looks like when fifa incorporated their 3d game in Fifa Manager, take a look at that and see if I'm right.
What hapened? You were heading in the right direction Konami with the game last year. the passes were fine, yes the AI needed improvement and the shooting some tweaking here and there, but instead you changed gear and headed into the past. i don't know if you try to please pes fans with a pes 6 feel buty I'm afarid those times are gone, need to move on.
All pes needed last year was just improvements on the part of AI (defending) team mate AI, improve the nets, the shooting and the the off-pitch atmosphere (Master league- with live feeds from other games, transfers, managers - for me anyway) and other modes.
I used to be a fifa fan until 2008 when Fifa pissed on the pc version and regurgited some old shit, and then, discovered the beauty of pes (a game which has or had soul)don't turn into fifa, konami, seabass.
Ali
It is happening again
Hmmmm. Some very mixed views so far. The views from Mak worry me the most, because he gives me the impression that he really likes PES 2011, but now he hates the demo?? Not good, but I'll reserve judgement until I play it, and then reserve further judgement until the next demo.
shaun7
Registered User
Yeah so what? After some time we still get used to his tricks and we can outplay the AI before he even tries to trick us. Thing is, that I ALREADY ADMITTED THAT IT CAN CHEAT LESS. But no football game will exist that will feature an AI that can outsmart humans in every way. Why? Because it was humans who gave the AI it's intelligence, so there's only so much it can do. In the end, we can still do better no matter what.
sydney2008
Registered User
sydney2008
Registered User
1.2 gb
Amateur
Registered User
Now that's just a very DUMB argument. After some time we still get used to his tricks and we can outplay the AI before he even tries to trick us??
No, that would be impossible. A smart computer would outsmart you very easily, it would be as simple as the computer (with the ball) using Play A and you pressing the wrong button; how would you know exactly what the computer would do with the ball? Out of three different decisions, how would the computer be dumb enough to make the obvious one? Impossible. You are thinking about PES and FIFA, which completely fucks up your credibility.
More importantly, even if the gamer eventually found the way to predict the computer 100% of the time; the human vs human experience would not be limited nor spoiled by the limitations of the computer.
The fact is whether you can accept it or not, that human vs human play does not necessarily needs to be spoiled by the limitations of the computer. Are Chess computer games spoiled by the limitations of the computer when you play online against a human? No. Is PES spoiled by the limitations of the computer when you play online against a human? Yes.
Mortal Kombat, yes the computer is easily predictable regardless of the fact that the video game is not scripted; yet when playing human vs human, the limitations of the computer do not spoil the game for us humans.
At the end of the day, I do not want to experience the limitations of the computer when playing against a human. That's the problem with PES and FIFA, it limits the human vs human experience with the limitations of the computer.
Even if the gamer eventually found the way to predict the computer 100% of the time; you would still need to win the ball, as tactical play would only determine how you close down the ball carrier, it would not actually determine the outcome of the one on one confrontation.
The fact is, cheating is dumb, and outsmarting a cheating computer is easy as well as boring. The fact that the computer actually needs to cheat in order to be a little competitive indicates just how dumb the video game actually is. The fact is your argument is extremely dumb, because even if the computer can never actually outsmart its creator, the computer can be exponentially more intelligent; so a rather moot point to describe progress as something irrelevant.
If you cannot comprehend or at least accept that one system is far superior to the other, then there's no point reasoning with such an unreasonable person. I couldn't give a fuck about the computer cheating less, I'm talking about the computer not cheating, period, a fairly simple argument.
wallpaper_01
Registered User
Wow from some of the videos posted up I think it looks really good! Almost looks real the way they are playing! Cant wait to play this!