PES 2012 To Be Announced This Week?

[Tech_Skill]

Yeah, watched the video, not that impressed, the most alarming bit was when he started talking about players making better runs, thats all very well and good but you need to have the defensive ai to support it. One of the biggest flaws in pes 2011 is that defenders do not mark the run of the attacking player, so if you do a 1-2 with a teammate, the oppostion just allows your teammate to run into that free space and have a free run in on goal..unless you can take control of a defender in time and stop it.

And it i saw the same thing occuring in this video...

Watch from the 2.44 mark, the red team has the ball and a pass is made to to an advanced player....as soon as the pass is made, watch the blue oppostion player marking the red player......he moves AWAY from the red player to allow him the free run on goal, the two defenders standing either side of the attacker do nothing whilst he gets in between them and onto goal....conviently the footage ends there.

If that is pes2011, im telling you right off the bat, that AI still aint right, fix the fucking CPU AI first then give more attacking options, defence is so neglected in this game already.

Edit: Oh and the throughballs are stupid as fuck in pes, they are like heat seeking missiles that find the target no matter what.

 

[waywardcloud]

didnt he say similar things for pes2011? the defensive side of the ball needs a lot of help, especially the AI, there is only so much i can do. i guess he s improving on it. lets see if he can get the AI n ppl to actually play football

 

[Tech_Skill]

didnt he say similar things for pes2011? the defensive side of the ball needs a lot of help, especially the AI, there is only so much i can do. i guess he s improving on it. lets see if he can get the AI n ppl to actually play football

defensivley the game is not up to par, WENB have done a breakdown on the whole video, and they are saying what i saw at 2:44 is correct

Having seen the player in possession beat his man, the No.10 is alert to the space created for the attack but has run off the player he was tracking to the deeper lying defender.

:laugh:

lmao watch 2:44 onwards again, the idiotic AI player running AWAY from the player who was clearly going to recieve the pass allowed a clear ass one on one, and check those two defenders (to the far right of the screenshot) standing on either side.....

1. DOING FUCK ALL

2.ATTACKER GETS CLOSER..... THEY HAVENT MOVED A FUCKING INCH.

And then to make matters worse if you watch the video, the defender the closest to the attacker at the top of the page STILL DOES NOTHING, so the defender who is further away has to run all the fucking way across to the attacker.....

Sorry, that AI dont look right.

 

[fick]

didnt he say similar things for pes2011?

Since PES 5, you can pretty much take anything said with a pinch of salt... no, forget that, a bucket of salt might be more apt by now.

On PS2 I can never remember complaints about the AI and poor animations, only issues were the limited editing options and the small ML and the annoying inability to change teams rather than spending your whole career at one.

Since the move to PS3/360, all that seems to have happened is that Konami spent too long making things look shiny & adding things that don't quite work and forgetting the fundamentals that made old gen PES the life draining joy it was.

I cannot speak for 2011 as it's the first PES I have not bothered to buy. If the hyperbole mimics the same from last year then I regret to say that 2012 my miss my door also.

Don't get me wrong here people, I loved PES since back in the ISS days, but that love, like a lawn after a female cat has visited, has become patchy.

 

[Sminky]

Nice word usage, Hyperbole two points to you sir!

I can't give up on PES though myself, I'm just too addicted to football and FIFA is never going to cut it for me. I think perhaps technologically speaking the current crop of hardware is never going to support a perfect football engine. But the concern will be, how shit will the transfer be from one next gen to the other.

 

[fick]

I think perhaps technologically speaking the current crop of hardware is never going to support a perfect football engine.

Which begs the question of how Konami made something play considerably better on PS1 & PS2 than they could in 2008/09/10..?

Or is it that our expectations have unrealistically increased concurrently with the power of the hardware..?

 

[Sminky]

Its probably the latter, which is frustrating when you see how good games like Mass Effect are.

 

[RAMAXWY]

The game is ment to be a simulation, so unless you can prove to me that it was a top defensive team or a top defender that was marking so poorly I'm not bothered by attackers loosing their marker in a video, because it all depends on the stats of the team and player not to mention the difficulty setting. What's important for me is that he fixes the things he mentioned that were all missing in pes 2011 because they really fucked up the game if you wanted to play football like its meant to be played.

 

[Tech_Skill]

The game is ment to be a simulation, so unless you can prove to me that it was a top defensive team or a top defender that was marking so poorly I'm not bothered by attackers loosing their marker in a video

Oh jeezzzzz.....

Open your eyes, the ai is fucked in that video......defenders dont stand still whilst a fucking attacker runs in the space between them and defenders dont run away from attackers who have the ball like that :laugh:

 

[RAMAXWY]

Oh jeezzzzz.....

Open your eyes, the ai is fucked in that video......defenders dont stand still whilst a fucking attacker runs in the space between them and defenders dont run away from attackers who have the ball like that :laugh:

But since we don't know the difficulty setting nor the players or team stats we can not conclude that this means the ai in the new game is fucked right. In real life even the best defenders make mistakes this is the reason we get goals so as I said the video doesn't mean to much to me except that the animations seem smoother and the ball physics look much better other then that they don't tell me all the things they tell you. I am looking forward to the game because of the straight forward things seabass said will be fixed without giving them fancy names like the other game we both know.

 

[Amateur]

The PS2 versions of PES made a lot more sense than the PS3 versions, and for very logical reasons as well. What Konami and EA Sports have done is very simplistic and stingy as far as I'm concerned. They have adapted the left analog stick to the same old d-pad system.

Direct the left analog stick or the d-pad, and this is enough to determine or affect two different factors simultaneously,

1st -- the direction that the player is looking at.

2nd -- movement towards the direction that the player is looking at.

Therefore making impossible to determine movement within the space that the player occupies and within the direction that the player is looking at; it is impossible to utilize the entire capacity of movement of the left analog stick in order to affect movement in accordance to just one direction.

This outdated system made sense in the PS2 games because the PS2 games were eight directional video games based on the d-pad, and the d-pad cannot determine distance without the assistance of some other button, therefore the d-pad is not accurate enough to determine movement within the space that the player occupies.

When you try to build on the same old system by simply adding more directions to the same old thing, well it doesn't work as well as it initially sounds, certainly not as good as the PS2 versions; the game is too fast and stupid for the amount of directions, which is the problem that EA Sports encountered with FIFA09 and FIFA10, one vs one against the GK all the time.

With PES11 Konami simply dumbed down the AI to an offensive level of stupidity, making it more difficult to score obvious goals. Yet the fact remains that the game is too fast and too stupid for the amount of directions, it worked when it was eight directional, but it does not work when you add more directions.

The game needs to slow the fuck down, and the way to slow it down is not by simply tweaking the same fucking thing, the correct way to do it is by reinventing the entire thing from the ground up: the left analog stick should not function like a d-pad with more than eight directions, it should function like a button that can determine direction and distance without the assistance of some other button.

PES12 sounds and looks like more of the same. In my opinion, it is not down to hardware limitations.

 

[xkamikaze9x]

Yeah, watched the video, not that impressed, the most alarming bit was when he started talking about players making better runs, thats all very well and good but you need to have the defensive ai to support it. One of the biggest flaws in pes 2011 is that defenders do not mark the run of the attacking player, so if you do a 1-2 with a teammate, the oppostion just allows your teammate to run into that free space and have a free run in on goal..unless you can take control of a defender in time and stop it.

And it i saw the same thing occuring in this video...

Watch from the 2.44 mark, the red team has the ball and a pass is made to to an advanced player....as soon as the pass is made, watch the blue oppostion player marking the red player......he moves AWAY from the red player to allow him the free run on goal, the two defenders standing either side of the attacker do nothing whilst he gets in between them and onto goal....conviently the footage ends there.

If that is pes2011, im telling you right off the bat, that AI still aint right, fix the fucking CPU AI first then give more attacking options, defence is so neglected in this game already.

Edit: Oh and the throughballs are stupid as fuck in pes, they are like heat seeking missiles that find the target no matter what.

I see what you're talking about and agree. I like that the defender initially tracking the diagonal run recognized the ballcarrier had beaten his defender and reacted to apply pressure... but the defensive switch reeked of the all too familiar "activate the wrong player to respond while the better positioned player stands idly by" problem. Perhaps since the sequence was being shown as an example of the attacking AI tweaks it was going up against less-developed defensive AI?

The defensive AI demonstration that starts at 4:17 gives me cautious optimism. Right away you can see that the defenders off the ball are marking their nearest threats moving around inside the box even while the ball is 15m outside the area. The fact that they're attentive to opposing players instead of just kind of standing in an area dictated by their position waiting until they're "activated" to respond to a loose ball or ballcarrier is encouraging. Too many through balls in 2011 catch the defense sleeping and they only start to break on a ball the moment the through ball is played and by then it's too late. It cut away from the sequence a little too early to really see how aggressively a defender chooses to close down space as the ball gets closer to the goal, but the 2 seconds we are shown looks improved. Boanerm's pressure at the top of the box seems much more intelligent than the problem in 2011 with defenders constantly backtracking into their own area and letting the ballcarrier get those few extra uncontested touches that lead to an open passing or shooting lane.

The midfield defensive demo @ 4:23 makes me really happy. Defenders who have identified a marking target actually follow them around and more importantly DEFENDERS WHO DON'T HAVE A MARKING ASSIGNMENT MOVE TO DENY THE MOST DANGEROUS LONG PASSING OPTIONS!!! :w00t:w00t:w00t:w00t I can't even begin to recount all the times I've been desperately sprinting to try and tackle a midfielder who's staring down a forward level with my back line, just waiting for the long through ball that's going to send him streaking into the final third ahead of my defense. Even though it's completely apparent to me that the midfielder is going to play the through ball as soon as I get anywhere close to him, I'm stuck watching with dread as a teammate positioned between the passer and target stands 3 feet away from the passing lane oblivious to the threat!

Again, it's too early to crown 2012 but even at this stage it's remarkable how the AI seems to be behaving like actual soccer players rather than mindless robots sequentially triggered to chase after a soccer ball. But so help me god if AI vs. AI plays well but they pull the "BAL on Top Player gives the human's AI teammates a frontal lobotomy" stunt. Which is why I'll still be renting 2012 first for minimum 2 weeks before I cough up another $60 next year.

 

[shaun7]

That video didn't show pes 12. It showed pes 11. Pes 12 was only showed in a few scenes that you cannot make judgements on. The footages were inconclusive.
So I wouldn't make any judgements yet neither good nor bad.

 

[RAMAXWY]

this game really seems to be messing with peoples minds, i read some are even saying "the response time of the players seemed to have improved", just by watching the damn video.
these are things u feel when u are busy playing the game yourself just like noticing if the a/i is messed up or not.
you can not judge this simply by watching a video.

 

[xkamikaze9x]

Whatever version they're using to demo their work, I still think that if that was my team defending @ 4:17 and the computer wound up creating a goal against it... I at least wouldn't feel cheap and violated...

For comparison purposes, I required 6 sessions with a grief counselor after PES11 did this to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V3OJyW6sTM

 

[Ali]

I've missed your left analogue stick-related rants, Amateur

I can't imagine PES 2012 being vastly different to PES 2011, so you'd probably be saying the same things in 6 months time, if you even get the game that is.

The main thing I want in the next game is just more control, in general. I don't want a player to be running alongside the ball when I play a pass, I want him to move on to it when I want.

If I tell my attacker to place a shot.... I want him to fucking place it! Not blast it!

I want less back-heels, less bicycle kicks from 25 yards, less of those stupid annoying toe-poked outside of the foot shots, less shots dragged miles wide, when it was easier to score than miss.

I want more players in the box when there is a corner.

Less scripting (obvious really).

I want Konami to put more research into teams and players, giving fairer player attributes.

.... and much, much more.

 

[Tech_Skill]

this game really seems to be messing with peoples minds, i read some are even saying "the response time of the players seemed to have improved", just by watching the damn video.
these are things u feel when u are busy playing the game yourself just like noticing if the a/i is messed up or not.
you can not judge this simply by watching a video.

Listen.....

in the video.

The Ai controlled defender

Runs away from the attacker

allowing him a clear run on goal

Whilst the two other defenders stand and let him in.

I think its fair to say, they ain't got the AI quite fixed just yet.

 

[RAMAXWY]

Listen.....

in the video.

The Ai controlled defender

Runs away from the attacker

allowing him a clear run on goal

Whilst the two other defenders stand and let him in.

I think its fair to say, they ain't got the AI quite fixed just yet.

just judging by the video and without any other info stats and team wise or difficult settings you are making the assumption that the ai in the new game is messed up.
come on, you are much smarter then that.
at least say IF this is the highest difficulty setting and IF that is a decent defender THEN the ai doesn't LOOK spot on yet.

so untill you've got all the info don't judge it yet.

the info seabass has given us sounds promising cause they are all the things i felt were missing in last years effort but you don't hear me saying it will be great i'm just hoping it will be.

 

[Sminky]

Its still hardly realistic though is it regardless of setting? Defenders running away from the ball no matter how its dressed up is ... bollocks.

 

[Tech_Skill]

just judging by the video and without any other info stats and team wise or difficult settings you are making the assumption that the ai in the new game is messed up.
come on, you are much smarter then that.
at least say IF this is the highest difficulty setting and IF that is a decent defender THEN the ai doesn't LOOK spot on yet..

Given that we have seen EXACTLY the same type of thing in Pes 2011, I think its pretty fair to say that this is a concern.....I dont buy into the difficulty bullshit, but I could be wrong, personally I dont think the AI is going to be fixed, possibly tweaked, but i doubt its a coincidence that the AI is doing the same old shit on pes 2012, that it was doing in PES 2011....thats my opinion on that.

Like I said right at the beggining, improving player runs is pointless if you dont balance that with a proper AI, that AI we have seen so far is not sufficent enough imo....i am judging exactly what I am seeing in the video, Im not guessing, what you see from 2.44 onwards is fact, just before the ball is passed, the marker clearly runs away from the attacker allowing him the clear chance, thats fact.