PES Rage Thread: Rage till your heart's content...

[CMB]

PES11 has the worst amount of 'bugs', gameplay bull like I've never seen - I thought FIFA 10 & 11 were bad enough.

I can't say that I like PES11 that much at all, even when it does go right because the constant battle to play a decent of football is too much to take.

@S-D-P

I previously read about you biting your analogue sticks off, but 'uppercutting myself in the face you know the rest' is too funny - nice to finally have a bit more of a laugh in this thread again

 

[S-D-P]

CMB I know what you mean, playing the game can feel like a bit of a chore especially when the AI decides to play a pussy formation all the time with two holding DMF, the pressure doesn't help either.

 

[Amateur]

Ok, I am going to lable all of the points I want to respond to in your post. I am going to do it in a civalized fashion, not responding to insults or swearing like you do.

1) In terms of some of the gameplay aspects, you may be right. Like I said, I don't bother with much of the tactical choices, so I can't argue against that (and I have never done). On the pitch, I feel like there is more freedom. This is of course, an opinion. But having played the last 3 games on this generation of consoles, this one does seem more "free". I know, at times, it does feel very automated.... but surely you've heard the phrase "baby steps"? In terms of gameplay options however... there is more choice. Such as the Copa Libertadores and MLO. You could say that choice is freedom... this is why I said in my last post, that it balances itself out.

2) Both games have their shitness, both have their goodness. I do feel as if PES is going in the right direction though. 2012 is going to be a big year for PES. With Fifa stuttering, know is their chance.

3) I don't hate your guts. For the simple fact that I don't know you outside of this forum. In fact, some of your posts in the off topic section (like the mafia wars suggestions) have been good. I just feel that in this section of the forum, you have the tendancy to spit your dummy out when someone disagrees with you, and resort to namecalling. Obviously you're not the only one.

4) Obviously I can't prove my opinion. I can only argue for it. I'm sure you can prove that there is more tactical freedom in the last game. As I talked about in point 1).

5) I have not insulted you, I have argued against your points. I have also agreed with some of your points. For crying out loud... you called me a "fucking tater salad"!! :laugh: You're a...... fucking pasta salad..... doesn't have the same impact does it?
Ok, I may have called you a broken record, with that image. But you do tend to repeat your points a lot. This was the first thing that annoyed me, months ago with your left analogue stick debate. Some of it was a fair argument, but you posted paragraphs upon paragraphs of the same stuff in different threads.

6) My advice to you... stop swearing at me!! Stop insulting me!!!

See. Now I have responded to your post without insults.... it's not that hard is it?

I will take your advice and will try not to insult anyone, though at the same time I don't see where I offended you nor how I ended up offending you, since it wasn't in my interest to value my opinion above yours nor to offend you because you have an opinion.

I apologize if I insulted you in one of the first posts to this last series of bickering, it was not my intention as it really adds nothing to the discussion.

As for your points.



1)

If you never try the tactical nuances you will no doubt find that PES11 is the much better game, because without tactics, PES11 is better than PES10.

I am not discussing that, the only thing that I really wanted to discuss (and perhaps deviated into insults in the process) is that PES10 in my opinion showed more potential.

But is only that -- potential -- the game still is utter shit at the end of the day, but then again, so is PES11 as far as I'm concerned.

The freedom that PES10 offers that PES11 does not offer, is that by breaking the game I can bend the script....

It is difficult for me to give you a good picture of what I mean when I say that you can bend the script, to put it as simply as I can, I will put it in points.

* by taking someone like Roman Riquelme or Xavi Hernandez, and placing them as a 5th center back, you can gain a new level of control over the game.

* by using the L2 Strategies, you can choose the strategy for "center back overlap run" and assign it to the 5th center back.

* by activating the "center back overlap run" strategy, the 5th center back will run forwards, forwards through the middle of the pitch or forwards through the flanks, depending on where you position the 5th center back.

* with the "center back overlap run" you can consciously/manually decide when you want the 5th center back to be deep in his own half of the pitch or if you want him to occupy more advanced areas of the pitch; you can deactivate and then activate the mentioned strategy in order to start attacks from the back.

* then with the regular formation, you place the 5th center back on the right flank as far towards the right as it can go.

* then by using the L2 Strategies again, you take the "Custom Settings A" and you replicate the regular formation with one slight difference, you only change the position of the 5th center back, you would move the 5th center back to the left flank as far towards the left as it can go.

* as a result, when you activate the "Custom Settings A" strategy, the 5th center back will instantly move horizontally across the entire width of the pitch from right to left; by deactivating the "Custom Settings A" strategy, the 5th center back will instantly move from left to right across the entire width of the pitch.

* with the "Custom Settings A" strategy, you can start an attack through the right flank, through the middle of the pitch, or through the left flank, all depending in what you want to do.

* the "center back overlap run" strategy should always be activated in order to make the most of the "Custom Settings A" strategy; as a result, this will add an entirely new layer of control to the game, because it gives you the control of creating passing angles without the necessity of passing the ball and without the necessity of even running with the ball.

* with the L2 Strategies, again, you can take the "Custom Settings B" strategies and replicate the regular formation with only a slight difference, you move the 5th center back to the middle of the pitch.

* by activating the "Custom Settings B" strategy the 5th center back will immediately run from the right flank to the middle of the pitch; by deactivating the "Custom Settings B" strategy, the 5th center back will immediately start running from the middle of the pitch towards the right flank.

* by using the "Custom Settings B" strategy with the assistance of the "center back overlap run" strategy, you can hold the ball with your back four whilst the 5th center back moves behind the lines from the right flank towards the middle of the pitch.... This adds an entirely new layer of control into the game.

* the most impressive thing about it, is how realistic it looks when you break the game, despite the robotic animations, when you see Xavi Hernandez passing the ball and then moving horizontally or diagonally along the width of the pitch....

* it is something that the computer cannot do and it is something that cannot be done without the L2 Strategies, and it is something that gives you a lot of freedom, because not only do you have control over the pass, but you also have control over when and where you want that pass or that first touch on the ball to happen.



The problem with PES10 is, of course, that in order to find this side of the game you need to dig deep into the game and you need to break the game; the negatives far exceed the positives.

The potential that I can see, is that I know that the game is twice as entertaining when you learn how to dictate your own script, the level of freedom it offers is revolutionary....

Even though you cannot manually determine the speed at which the 5th center back moves without the ball.... the amount of control it offers as it is, is truly revolutionary.

So the amount of control that I could have over the game, if I could use the pressure sensitive L2 button in order to determine the speed at which that 5th center back moves without the ball.... is massive, there's a lot of potential in there.

So when I buy PES11 thinking that the movement without the ball still works the same way + the new passing freedom, it sounded like a good game.... But it was a disappointment, because the new Select Strategies of PES11 are entirely automatic, which means that it is impossible for you to touch the script.

With PES11 you cannot manually control the movement of a player who does not have the ball at his feet; I can no longer hold the ball with the back four and manually move that 5th center back, and manually dictate my own script.

PES11 is a more structured game and a superior game if you do not consider the tactical side of the game.... but it is a more restrictive and automatic game if you consider the tactical side of the game.

My argument is, basically, that PES11 fails massively because the script of the game is entirely out of your hands when it could easily be in your hands, which is not a good sign.

PES11 is too much like FIFA, it is structured and fluid, but it lacks substance where it matters the most. Hopefully it improves, but PES11 does not show potential in my opinion.

As for which game is better, for me it is all about moods, at times I prefer to play PES11 and other times PES10, honestly, both games are outdated in my opinion.



2) my opinion about PES11.

One of the things that I hated about PES10 was that because we do not have a power bar for passing the ball, this means that the left analog stick needs to affect the weight of the pass....

Which means that a percent of the range of movement of the left analog stick must be used for determining the weight or power of passes; as a result, the game feels a bit unresponsive because slightly touching the left analog stick barely affects movement with the ball.

After playing PES11, I now have a new found respect for the less sensitive approach of PES10.

When you cannot affect movement inside the space and yet the game is extremely sensitive.... this means that you are left with a game that in my opinion is extremely uncomfortable to play, it feels like a shore to play, which is not entertaining.

The hook is very important, and the hook of PES11 despite the positives that it offers, at the end of the day, it just feels like a shore.... because it is extremely sensitive and yet it does not offers precision.

Why should using Lio Messi be so unrewarding and unreliable?

Because unlike his real life self, the Lio Messi of PES11 cannot actually move inside the space.... which means that the computer can shift the momentum and can force you into running through space until you loose possession of the ball.

That RUSH of running all the time and knowing that you can only run because it is impossible not to run, feels more like plain running rather than football.

I want to play a structured but RELAXED AND PRECISE game.... and by RELAXED AND PRECISE.... I mean a football sim where if you direct the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button, you affect movement inside the space without affecting your position on the pitch....

Thus the game could be even more sensitive than PES11 and at the same time also offer three times more precision than PES11, because the left analogue stick would have more than one dimension to it: movement inside the space and movement through space, two dimensions.

Therefore, the computer cannot force you into running if you do not want to run because the computer cannot steal the ball away from you by simply running you over, because the computer would actually need to stop running and measure the direction and distance of the standing tackle.... in order to actually steal the ball away from you.

Because if the computer does not stop running in order to measure the standing tackle in order to steal the ball away from you, you will easily dribble past the computer or the computer will foul you, but the computer will never steal the ball away from you by simply running you over.

RELAXED AND PRECISE.... because you can decide not to run if you get tired of running around like a headless chicken.

PES11 is just too automatic where it matters the most, the computer has too much power over the game, the extreme sensitivity of the left analog stick and the lack of precision that the left analog offers, feels like a shore.

Plus, the movement without the ball is entirely out of your hands.

 

[Capt Canuck]

CMB I know what you mean, playing the game can feel like a bit of a chore especially when the AI decides to play a pussy formation all the time with two holding DMF, the pressure doesn't help either.

Calling it a chore is spot on. That's what annoys me more than AI preferencial treatment.

 

[Amateur]

Calling it a chore is spot on. That's what annoys me more than AI preferencial treatment.

Fully agree with you about that. The phrase that best describes PES11 in my opinion is: "it feels like a shore"

The extreme sensitivity of the left analog stick + the extreme lack of precision that the left analog stick offers = a video game that feels like a shore.

The left analog stick only has one dimension to it: it only affects movement through space, thus also affecting the direction that you are looking at.

This means that it is impossible to have truly manual passing, because you cannot pass the ball into spaces that do not exist within the practical confines of the video game.

In order for a space to exist within the practical confines of the video game, you need to have the ability of moving inside that space; however, if you cannot move inside the space that you can see, this means that you cannot pass the ball into a space that does not exists.

The only way you can fix this fundamental flaw, is by adding a new dimension to the left analog stick: movement through space and movement inside the space, two dimensions.

You would now have the ability of moving inside the space without affecting your position on the pitch and without affecting the direction that you are looking at; which means that you could therefore adjust your body positioning in order to affect dribbling, passing, shooting, tackling, without the necessity of moving through space.

And because you could therefore move inside that space, and that space is a square or circle of precisely 5 feet of distance, this means that you can now pass the ball into that space.

If you cannot affect movement inside the space without affecting the direction that you are looking at and without also affecting your position on the pitch....

This means that the computer will just force you into running and twisting through space (not inside the space) until you loose the ball, which feels more like running for your life rather than playing football, and ultimately feels like a shore to play.

 

[Ali]

I'm not quoting your entire post Amateur, it's too long, thus making my post too long (though I have read all of it).

It's a bit harsh to call it utter shit. It's both brilliant and shit at the same time. Like a cheesey pop song that you can't help but dance too

With regards to the tactics, maybe I should give them a go at some point. Are you saying that they don't have much of an effect in this game, because of the scripting? I've never used the tactics, because (without meaning to sound arrogant), I've always been good enough at PES to get by without them. The problem with all this tactical sliders etc, is that folk online will find a way to exploit them, which does not sit well with me.
You talk about placing Xavi as a 5th centre back? By the sounds of it, it sounds like it is something that shouldn't work (because Xavi is not a CB obviously)... but it does. So IMO, it is an exploit.

The games are outdated, no doubt, but I still think they're going the right direction. This whole "360" thing is new for PES, so it may take them a few attempts to get it right. Maybe PES 2011 should be called PES 2012: Prologue?

I know you like the idea of being able to move inside a space without sprinting, it would add a new level of control. However, I think it will make the game feel sluggish. Also, I like having the different speeds I can run at - the regular jog, the R2 dribbling and the R1 sprint.

 

[brijesh1804]

Playing with PES 2011 feels like a marriage gone stale for me(not that mine is though :happy.There is hardly any excitement even if i score a goal it all just seems routine.

There is nothing new to this game, in spite of all the new bells and whistles the underlying feel of this game is still very robotic,emotionless and monotonous.After a while you just try to play this game according to the way it wants you to play.

You accept the poor refereeing decisions, you accept the poor ball interceptions by your defenders, you accept the really stupid and laughable offside decisions,you accept the really stupid stupid decisions by your keeper,you accept that no matter how much you want to run forward your WF's and SMF's are really not interested in moving up the field, you accept the fact that no matter how well you play you will be going down 2-1 in the 90th min, you accept that no matter how much you try you will not be winning that important cup game.

Many times you will score a goal but you will feel somehow disappointed that there was no real challenge to it, its as if the game wanted you to score and many times the vice-versa happens.After a while you mind just gets numb from all the rage and frustrations, you just play without any feeling.you win you lose but it doesn't matter anymore.

But still the very next day you will again pick up your poor manhandled gamepad and say that what the heck! its just a bloody game and you need your daily fix.

 

[Amateur]

I'm not quoting your entire post Amateur, it's too long, thus making my post too long (though I have read all of it).

It's a bit harsh to call it utter shit. It's both brilliant and shit at the same time. Like a cheesey pop song that you can't help but dance too

With regards to the tactics, maybe I should give them a go at some point. Are you saying that they don't have much of an effect in this game, because of the scripting? I've never used the tactics, because (without meaning to sound arrogant), I've always been good enough at PES to get by without them. The problem with all this tactical sliders etc, is that folk online will find a way to exploit them, which does not sit well with me.
You talk about placing Xavi as a 5th centre back? By the sounds of it, it sounds like it is something that shouldn't work (because Xavi is not a CB obviously)... but it does. So IMO, it is an exploit.

The games are outdated, no doubt, but I still think they're going the right direction. This whole "360" thing is new for PES, so it may take them a few attempts to get it right. Maybe PES 2011 should be called PES 2012: Prologue?

I know you like the idea of being able to move inside a space without sprinting, it would add a new level of control. However, I think it will make the game feel sluggish. Also, I like having the different speeds I can run at - the regular jog, the R2 dribbling and the R1 sprint.

I agree about the utter shit bit, it's definitely above the utter shit mark, but it's also not on the great game mark, in my opinion.

But that's the thing about PES, PES and ISS used to be great video games ahead of their time back in the PS2 days and N64 days; but today, with far superior consoles, these games are outdated, promises are made on a yearly basis, and at the end of the day, nothing is done to fix the fundamental flaws.

Which is why I am done with "hoping" on a yearly basis, I know why the game has not improved as much as one would have expected back in the PS2 days; honestly, when I played the first PES games for PS2, I imagined that PES would be further ahead in year 2011.

And the truth is, PES has not really evolved, the core flaws are the same as ever, and Konami only seems interested in disguising the core flaws with cheap updates, rather than actually fixing them.

As for moving inside the space: this would only add more variety to running speeds for logical reasons, and obviously to dribbling, the regular jog and the R2 dribbling would be replaced with something better.

The R2 dribbling is outdated, by moving inside the space by simply releasing the sprint buttons and then directing the left analog stick, you would have a dribbling system with five times more depth and more precision than the outdated R2 dribble which is not actually dribbling.



As for the exploits with the strategies, it is an exploit, but it is a different type of exploit, the game is more difficult when you use this type of exploit because you have to time your passes whilst at the same time think about the script.

It is much easier to play without bending the script, because you do not need to think about anything because the computer is spoon feeding you with easy chances on goal; the only reason why I found out about this tactical exploit....

Is because I was bored of the game being too easy and I was looking for some new tricks that might add something to the overall experience, and I found what I was looking for, because the strategies exploit is the most brilliant thing that PES10 has to offer.

As for Xavi Hernandez being a 5th center back.... we know he isn't.... but let's be honest, we also know that in real life football, Xavi Hernandez does not moves like a robot always running vertically, and vertically, and vertically, never horizontally nor diagonally....

So as a 5th center back that has the ability of running forwards, backwards, towards the left, towards the right, and diagonally, in accordance to your commands: the 5th center back actually is much more similar to the real Xavi, than the CMF that can only move forwards and backwards in accordance to the computer.

It is an exploit in PES10, but it is the type of exploit that makes the game more difficult and more challenging because it requires more focus and more ability; my point is, that this should be how PES should function, it should not be an exploit, it should be one of the key elements of the game, it should not be as difficult as it is in PES10, it should be very easy to do because it should be one of the key elements of the game.

PES should not unlock itself automatically, the user should be the factor that unlocks the game, and that is what the tactical exploit of PES10 offered, it offered you the freedom of unlocking the game for yourself, albeit with many restrictions and flaws to the game.

With a more structured game, this concept of user-dictated gameplay, has massive potential.



Of course the game wills always be scripted because it involves the collective movement of 10 individuals, but by having that type of control over one individual, the game could easily function so that the individual unlocks the game.

The movements of the other 9 individuals could then be determined more simply because the role of of the other players is simpler; for instance, a wide back, the pressure sensitive L2 button could work for triggering forward runs from the wide backs, so that you have control over the game.

A striker, the computer decides the direction in which he runs, you would then assign a type of movement to the striker; so that the pressure sensitive L2 button works for the striker running towards the position of the ball, which creates an endless variety of movements; or so that the pressure sensitive L2 button works for forward runs.

So the computer cannot screw you over, because you have complete control over the most important areas: movement with the ball, passing, movement without the ball.

Movement inside the space would be critical for this system, since this system would be an RPG type of video game, where the game functions pass by pass, where the attacker pulls one string and the defender reacts to that, where the attacker and the defender only have one reaction per pass, therefore eliminating exploits and cheap flaws.

A system where movement inside the space is essential since dribbling and defending is not only covering large distances, because if that was the case, Usain Bolt would be the best football player in the world.

To put is as simply as possible: if movement inside the space is not necessary and thus possible, the core flaws will remain the same as ever.

If you direct the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button, and this affects:

1st -- movement through space / your position on the pitch.

2nd -- the direction that you are looking at / your position on the pitch.

If directing the left analog stick without the assistance of the sprint button affects the mentioned factors: the core flaws will remain the same as ever.



My opinion about football gaming in general, is that once that Konami realized that they would need to go down an RPG route in order to offer more freedom to the gamers; Konami, decided to turn ISS into a movie, which is when PES comes along.

ISS started as a video game, today we have a movie titled PES; the game plays itself, and Konami doesn't seem interested in wanting to make a video game anymore.

 

[Sminky]

It is difficult for me to give you a good picture of what I mean when I say that you can bend the script, to put it as simply as I can, I will put it in points.

* by taking someone like Roman Riquelme or Xavi Hernandez, and placing them as a 5th center back, you can gain a new level of control over the game.

* by using the L2 Strategies, you can choose the strategy for "center back overlap run" and assign it to the 5th center back.

* by activating the "center back overlap run" strategy, the 5th center back will run forwards, forwards through the middle of the pitch or forwards through the flanks, depending on where you position the 5th center back.

* with the "center back overlap run" you can consciously/manually decide when you want the 5th center back to be deep in his own half of the pitch or if you want him to occupy more advanced areas of the pitch; you can deactivate and then activate the mentioned strategy in order to start attacks from the back.

* then with the regular formation, you place the 5th center back on the right flank as far towards the right as it can go.

* then by using the L2 Strategies again, you take the "Custom Settings A" and you replicate the regular formation with one slight difference, you only change the position of the 5th center back, you would move the 5th center back to the left flank as far towards the left as it can go.

* as a result, when you activate the "Custom Settings A" strategy, the 5th center back will instantly move horizontally across the entire width of the pitch from right to left; by deactivating the "Custom Settings A" strategy, the 5th center back will instantly move from left to right across the entire width of the pitch.

* with the "Custom Settings A" strategy, you can start an attack through the right flank, through the middle of the pitch, or through the left flank, all depending in what you want to do.

* the "center back overlap run" strategy should always be activated in order to make the most of the "Custom Settings A" strategy; as a result, this will add an entirely new layer of control to the game, because it gives you the control of creating passing angles without the necessity of passing the ball and without the necessity of even running with the ball.

* with the L2 Strategies, again, you can take the "Custom Settings B" strategies and replicate the regular formation with only a slight difference, you move the 5th center back to the middle of the pitch.

* by activating the "Custom Settings B" strategy the 5th center back will immediately run from the right flank to the middle of the pitch; by deactivating the "Custom Settings B" strategy, the 5th center back will immediately start running from the middle of the pitch towards the right flank.

* by using the "Custom Settings B" strategy with the assistance of the "center back overlap run" strategy, you can hold the ball with your back four whilst the 5th center back moves behind the lines from the right flank towards the middle of the pitch.... This adds an entirely new layer of control into the game.

* the most impressive thing about it, is how realistic it looks when you break the game, despite the robotic animations, when you see Xavi Hernandez passing the ball and then moving horizontally or diagonally along the width of the pitch....

* it is something that the computer cannot do and it is something that cannot be done without the L2 Strategies, and it is something that gives you a lot of freedom, because not only do you have control over the pass, but you also have control over when and where you want that pass or that first touch on the ball to happen.

I'm actually going to use this strategy Amateur when I play in the PES2011 Tournoi later this year against my mates .

Hopefully whichever team I get drawn has a good passer I can play in this quarterback position.

 

[Amateur]

I'm actually going to use this strategy Amateur when I play in the PES2011 Tournoi later this year against my mates .

Hopefully whichever team I get drawn has a good passer I can play in this quarterback position.

It doesn't work in PES11, it worked in PES10.

In PES11 it works but only slightly, you cannot dictate horizontal movements, but you can have a good passer looking for the ball deep in his own half, which is perfect for playing long balls.

Would've been awesome if it worked with PES11 but the new system of strategies and off the ball movement is different, more automatic, you cannot affect it, not even with the L2 Strategies.

That's one of my main disappointments with PES11, I was expecting the same system for off the ball movement with the improved system for passing the ball.

 

[Sminky]

It doesn't work in PES11, it worked in PES10.

In PES11 it works but only slightly, you cannot dictate horizontal movements, but you can have a good passer looking for the ball deep in his own half, which is perfect for playing long balls.

I might try a really good passer as a 3rd centre back and see how it goes. I was until recently using my best passer as a very deep DMF with two centrebacks ahead of him - but I was getting done on the counter attack because my backline was so high.

 

[Ali]

Does it not drastically alter a player's ability when you play him way out of position like that? Like Xavi at centre back for example? Won't his rating go down to about 50?

 

[Sminky]

Yeah but that doesn't have much affect though, I've put Carlos Diogo upfront for Zaragoza and despite having terrible goalscoring stats and a poor overall stat he was my leading goalscorer after 10 games with 6 goals!

 

[Amateur]

Does it not drastically alter a player's ability when you play him way out of position like that? Like Xavi at centre back for example? Won't his rating go down to about 50?

I think that's bullshit, his rating will go down to 50 but he is actually better when you play him as a 3rd center back, so the number really means nothing as far as I'm concerned.

When he has 90 you cannot control his movements, he can only go backwards and forwards in accordance to the computer; as a center back with a rating of 50 his ability with the ball is more or less identical, plus the player can now move horizontally, diagonally, forwards, backwards, in accordance to your commands.

Also, the fact that you cannot take a CMF and put him along side a CB because he would no longer be a CMF (he would now be a 3rd CB), is evidence of the outdated system that Konami uses -- a CMF cannot go down to the position of a CB in order to ask for the ball -- which is a great restriction because we know that CMFs move all over the pitch.

A CF cannot be placed right in front of an AMF because this would make him an AMF, so unlike real life football, in PES a CF cannot run backwards in order to ask for the ball.

In PES, an AMF cannot be in the middle of the pitch and expect the CF to run into the middle of the pitch in order to ask for the ball, because if the CF runs into the middle of the pitch this means that the CF will now become a CMF or an AMF.

Thus making it impossible to do many of the things that are normal in real football: a CF running into the middle of the pitch, receive the ball, pass the ball backwards with his first touch on the ball, and then run forwards into the penalty area, looking for the return pass from the CMF.

You cannot do that in PES, because the CF would automatically become a CMF if he moves to the middle of the pitch; the same way a CMF automatically becomes a 3rd CB if he moves to a very deep position.

The only way of playing realistic football is by having control over the script of the game, and the only way of having control over the script of the game is by having a 3rd CB that has the ability of moving all over the pitch in accordance to your commands, which creates many options that would be impossible if you did not have control over the script of the game.

PES uses a rigid system, PES10 gave you the option of breaking the game by using the L2 Strategies, in order to experience how it feels to dictate if you want your CMF (3rd CB) to go backwards into his own half, forwards into the opponents half, towards the right flank, towards the left flank, towards the middle of the pitch, in accordance to your commands.

PES11 is a lot more structured and rigid, and does not give you the option of dictating user-dictated scenarios. It did not improved on the off the ball system of PES10, it merely simplified what already was an outdated system.

In PES11 you cannot take a CMF and place him alongside one of the CBs, because that would make the CMF a CB, it is a rigid and outdated system.

In PES11 you cannot even do the trick of placing a 3rd CB, because the 3rd CB will not move in accordance to your commands, the new system is entirely out of your control, a complete contradiction to the "engineered for freedom" motto.

PES10 gave you the option of replacing a useless CMF with a useful 3rd CB, and the 3rd CB moved like a CMF that can move all over the pitch in accordance to your commands. Thus, not only do you control the direction of passes, but you also control the script that predetermines the direction of passes, which is something that is impossible to do in PES11.

 

[Capt Canuck]

^ Once you chaps stopped with the handbags I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on the game, but I do not agree with your POV on how rigid the system is in regards to positions in game.

Absolutely where a player is placed in the Game Plan view dictates which position you can select him to play, however; with regards to players then not occupying space other than that which fits with where their stereotypical position is something I don't always see.

If my AMF drops deep to pick up the ball in my half of the pitch, I have had my CF drop into that AMF hole and the two wingers/support strikers have ended up being the furthest up the pitch. Also my CMF/DMF does on occasion end up in the 18yd box, taking the place of a CB who has been pulled out wide or if possession changes near the goal line, so that I can get it to him and from their initiate movement going forward.

 

[Amateur]

^ Once you chaps stopped with the handbags I've enjoyed reading your thoughts on the game, but I do not agree with your POV on how rigid the system is in regards to positions in game.

Absolutely where a player is placed in the Game Plan view dictates which position you can select him to play, however; with regards to players then not occupying space other than that which fits with where their stereotypical position is something I don't always see.

If my AMF drops deep to pick up the ball in my half of the pitch, I have had my CF drop into that AMF hole and the two wingers/support strikers have ended up being the furthest up the pitch. Also my CMF/DMF does on occasion end up in the 18yd box, taking the place of a CB who has been pulled out wide or if possession changes near the goal line, so that I can get it to him and from their initiate movement going forward.

You are talking about the computer spoon feeding you with cheap chances on goal, on the other hand, I am talking about movements that are dictated by your ability as a player.

That's the huge difference, you are talking about the ability of the computer to pull the strings for you, I am talking about your ability as a player to pull the strings for yourself.

When you loose that freedom of pulling the strings for yourself, you depend on the ability of the computer to provide you with chances, and this is where the freedom is lost, because the game practically plays itself.



I have also had my CF drop into that AMF hole, and when the CF drops into that AMF hole he no longer plays like a CF in the AMF hole, instead, he literally plays like an AMF in the AMF hole.

And when the two wingers or support strikers have ended up being the furthest up the pitch, whilst at the same time my CF has disappeared and has been replaced with an AMF that I do not need -- the problem is, that when this happens, you have no freedom over the game, because the game is basically playing itself without your input.

You are not dictating this, the computer is dictating things for you, which is not entertaining because you are not actually reacting to circumstances that you have created for yourself, you are merely reacting to circumstances that the computer created for you; in my opinion, it feels more like playing a movie rather than playing a video game.

I do not want that. What I want, is only for the CF to drop down to the midfield, have a touch on the ball, and then immediately run into the penalty area.

Thus, I would have control over the ball carrier and over the CF which is moving without the ball, I am in control of the game; I control two individuals and my opponent controls two individuals, and these individuals are the only individuals that can affect the outcome of the play pass per pass.



With each pass, a new window is opened to either:

1st -- continue using the same players and not involve anyone else.

2nd-- continue using the same players and involve a third participant.

3rd -- replace one of the participants for a new participant.



Without passing the ball, you only have two options:

1st -- dribbling past the defender, which would open a new window the same way a pass creates a new window.

2nd -- involve one individual who does not have the ball at his feet, into the play.



I control two individuals and my opponent controls two individuals, and these individuals are the only individuals that can affect the outcome of the play pass per pass, and this creates the freedom that is necessary for the user to have real control over the game.

The problem is, when the computer starts moving two individuals towards the penalty area, because this now involves four individuals whom are affecting the outcome of the play, and a human being cannot control the reactions and movements of four individuals, and this is where the freedom is lost....

The game is making decisions without your input, these com-dictated decisions affect the outcome of each play therefore affecting the outcome of the game, these com-dictated decisions predetermine all of your actions, which means that at the end of the day, the user is merely reacting to com-dictated circumstances and therefore the computer can shift the momentum in favor of one player and against another player.... and the player is left powerless since the player cannot touch the script of the game -- this is where the freedom goes down the toilet.

The game is practically playing itself in accordance to a script which cannot be affected by the user, therefore undermining your ability as a player/gamer.

When a CF cannot be positioned in the midfield as a CF because the system does not allow a CF to be positioned in the midfield.... and when the computer starts making decisions for you, such as positioning the wingers or support strikers further up the pitch -- these are decisions that the computer is making regardless of what you want to do, thus undermining your ability and your freedom as a player/gamer.



The PES system is rigid and outdated, because if my CF drops to the midfield, he will automatically become a CMF or an AMF positioned somewhere in the midfield, instead of a CF dropping deep in order to look for the ball.

If I want the CF to drop deep in order to look for the ball without turning into a CMF or an AMF, is impossible in PES10 and PES11 and every football sim to date, due to the outdated and rigid system.

You need to experience the freedom of dictating your own script, it is not a matter of "on occasion" end up in the 18 yard box, it is a matter of you knowing where and when the player will end up because you are controlling the script of the game.

You are talking about things that are dictated by the computer regardless of your ability or intention, I am talking about things that are dictated by the user in accordance to the user's intentions, a massive difference.

 

[Capt Canuck]

Sure I appreciate what you are saying about where the responses are initiated from (game vs person) and the thought you put into it. Surely if we were to chart game play improvements over the past 10 years, it would be a rather disappointing, underwhelming arc, so your point regarding Konami not developing a proper platform for todays game systems is not something I would contradict.

My response is that you can setup the 'team strategy' and position players/formations as such, so as to increase the chances they play in the manner you want. Yes that means it's more scripted/AI guff than 'freedom' and its certainly not something you can abide by, but I know that is the case and take it as such. To me the PES10 hack you mentioned previously regarding the CB/CMF isn't any more palatable in regards to it being a required workaround to improve game play. You definitely have greater expectations than I do

Maybe Konami should have just made PES11 a maintenance/bug fix release (and pitched it as such) and focused on a PES12 that genuinely delivers.

On a side note I used to love making my own plays in Madden. Stupid gimmick plays that the system couldn't cope with and also new formations/plays my favorite teams would run that weren't actually in the game, so I can understand where your argh-ness at PES is coming from.

 

[Amateur]

Sure I appreciate what you are saying about where the responses are initiated from (game vs person) and the thought you put into it. Surely if we were to chart game play improvements over the past 10 years, it would be a rather disappointing, underwhelming arc, so your point regarding Konami not developing a proper platform for todays game systems is not something I would contradict.

My response is that you can setup the 'team strategy' and position players/formations as such, so as to increase the chances they play in the manner you want. Yes that means it's more scripted/AI guff than 'freedom' and its certainly not something you can abide by, but I know that is the case and take it as such. To me the PES10 hack you mentioned previously regarding the CB/CMF isn't any more palatable in regards to it being a required workaround to improve game play. You definitely have greater expectations than I do

Maybe Konami should have just made PES11 a maintenance/bug fix release (and pitched it as such) and focused on a PES12 that genuinely delivers.

On a side note I used to love making my own plays in Madden. Stupid gimmick plays that the system couldn't cope with and also new formations/plays my favorite teams would run that weren't actually in the game, so I can understand where your argh-ness at PES is coming from.

Well, to me it is palatable, because I cannot play PES10 without breaking it, because playing the game the way it was meant to be played is just outdated and boring.

So for me it is a requirement before even thinking about playing the game.

It is very important in football, to know about any weak spots, like the weak spots that Dani Alves can leave in the right flank because he is always attacking, and taking advantage of that weak spot.

And not only that, but, how you reach that weak spot is also just as important; when the computer makes all these decisions for you, the computer is essentially playing the football for you and showing you the options that you have, as provided by the computer.

Therefore it is extremely important for the user to have control over this aspect of the game, because otherwise, the outcome of the game is determined or affected by something that cannot be affected nor determined by the user.

At the end of the day, even with the strategic hack PES10 is still scripted regardless of how you play the game, the forward runs are entirely dictated by the computer, which means that my goal-passes are always predetermined by the computer; but the hack does creates a new dimension of freedom and control over the game, it offers a new way of playing the game.

You can determine how you start your attack and how you finish your attack, and that's the type of freedom that PES11 does not offers, actually, that's the type of freedom that I have only experienced with PES10.



If the game was designed to function around such a system, the forward runs from the strikers would be determined by the user with the assistance of pressure sensitive buttons such as the L2 button -- you would hear no more complains about the strikers not running or the strikers running too quickly and putting themselves off sides.... because the user would manually determine the movements of the strikers, as provided by himself, to himself.

A pressure sensitive button could also work for the striker to run towards the position of the ball (wherever the ball might be), which would create endless possibilities.

But this can only be possible if, the com-dictated movements that cannot be determined nor affected by the user, do not affect nor determine the outcome of the game.

In order to do that, the game would need to be automatically locked, so that if you pass the ball to an individual who is moving but is moving out of your jurisdiction: this individual would be marked by an opposing defender, thus the game would be automatically locked.

What we currently have, is individuals that are moving and are moving out of your jurisdiction, and when you pass them the ball, the computer already decided that the individual will be free from mark: thus, the game automatically unlocks itself without the input of the user.

The game currently needs to unlock itself automatically because it does not offers you the tools that are needed so that you can manually unlock the game for yourself.

PES10 offers a very good clue as to how the user could manually unlock the game.

What the game needs is an easy to use tool that is necessary in order to play the game, so that the game revolves around your ability as a player to create circumstances for yourself and your ability as a player to close down your opponent; as opposed to being a mere spectator, waiting for the computer to provide you with your next fix.

I don't think I have unrealistic expectations, it's just that when you pay $60 on a yearly basis for the same product for more than 5 years running, and the fundamental flaws of the product have not been touched after more than 5 years, you start feeling like the company is interested in stealing money from you by selling you a cheap update at the price of a massive overhaul, rather than giving you your money's worth.

And we have fans at WENB and other websites, complaining about the core fundamental flaws but not really talking about the reasons for why these flaws are still there, and when they do bother looking for reasons, the reasons they give are bullshit.



The TWO main reasons for why the game has not really improved in the last 5 years:

1st reason -- by directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of the sprint button, this affects: movement through space, your position on the pitch, and the direction that your are looking at.

1st reason -- it is impossible to move inside a determined space, if the determined space is a square or circle of 5 feet of distance and you cannot move inside the mentioned space, this means that the space does not exists within the practical confines of the game, which means that it is impossible to pass the ball into a space that does not exists.... and also means that each confrontation between attacker and defender is ultimately a hit-or-miss confrontation where the manual ability of the user is undermined by stats that work automatically in accordance to the computer.

2nd reason -- when we pass the ball, every pass is still completely predetermined by the computer: user number one vs user number two, user number one passes the ball to a player that was running into the space (user number one was not controlling the player that was running into the space), the defender who was supposed to be marking the attacker who just received the pass decided to go the other way (user number two was not controlling the defender that decided to do something irrational), and at the end of the day, the computer already predetermined your options before you even had control over the player, providing user number one with a cheap chance on goal.

2nd reason -- it still is impossible to manually unlock the game, it still is impossible to use pressure sensitive buttons such as the L2 button in order to manually determine the movements of the forwards as well as the movements of other players. Which means that the outcome of the game is ultimately determined or affected by a script that the user cannot affect nor determine.



I do not think fixing the fundamental flaws should be considered an unrealistic expectation, I think it is a realistic expectation, I think it is realistic to expect your money's worth.

But we have all these websites like WENB and others, who talk about unrealistic things, they talk about more fluid animations being the priority for PES12, as if more fluid animations will fix the main complains about PES11 -- the obscene AI scripting.

It is unrealistic, because copying the fluid FIFA animations will not fix the fundamental flaws of AI scripting, since we all know that FIFA11 is just as scripted as PES11 is: so it has nothing to do with how fluid your animations are, fluid animations have little to do with freedom, as can be appreciated with FIFA11.

But there we have WENB and others, talking about how better animations will fix things that have nothing to do with the quality of animations; these are unrealistic expectations, because you are telling the people, that if a building is falling down, that a paint job will do the trick, that is unrealistic, because paint has nothing to do with structural matters.

So I consider my expectations realistic, most people are complaining about scripted gameplay, and AI scripting will not be fixed by touching up on the animations and on the graphics: this is a fundamental flaw that has been there since the glory days, and that in order to fix, will require fundamental structural changes, not a paint job.

It is realistic to expect fundamental changes if you demand fundamental changes.

 

[Ali]

Enough of the PES cheating nonsense (with all due respect)... let's get back to some PES Rage.

Just lost for the first time in a while online... must be about 25-30 games... maybe more. To a complete cheesing bastard. Constant one-twos (a real pet hate of mine), long through balls. That's what his first goal came from. It was a result of a throw in, which I'm sure should have been mine! His second goal came from a cheap near post corner. It must have been one of his favourite cheap tactics, because he tried it for the 3 corners just before the one he scored. :realmad:

 

[muscularmatt]

The only reasonable explaination Ali is that you are crap at PES, and have a very small penis.