DIECI
Registered User
can you switch to that defender while the ball is in flight? that could resolve the problem. If you could switch and take control of him then you could head the ball and not allow him to move back .
Right, Time For Some Real Talk on This Fifa/PES Buisness
- Thread starter Tech__Skill
- Start date
can you switch to that defender while the ball is in flight? that could resolve the problem. If you could switch and take control of him then you could head the ball and not allow him to move back .
Cristiano92
Registered User
The "problem" with defenders was on a early www.prorevo.de review.
You need to control the defender much more, to get the ball headed.
A good thing in my opinion, why only press the shoot button and our defender moves to the right place and heads.
You need to control the defender much more, to get the ball headed.
A good thing in my opinion, why only press the shoot button and our defender moves to the right place and heads.
Amateur
Registered User
PES vs FIFA,
----------------------
Part I, "360 dribbling"
----------------------
I think that, when talking about "360 movement", it is important to acknowledge "360 running" and "360 dribbling" as different and independent areas, which complement each other, but different areas nonetheless.
To call it "360 movement" is too generic and vague, because movement could be running or dribbling, it's not tied to running or dribbling, movement is everything, walking is moving.
As for the idea of 360 movements... I'm going to start by questioning the 360 dribbling that PES and FIFA use: is it 360 dribbling? or 360 running? and how about 360 man-marking?
The 360 "dribbling" that PES and FIFA sell... It's not dribbling, it's running... they are selling an idea of "dribbling" which is in fact an illusion. TRY THE FOLLOWING: stop the movement of the ball, and when stationary, try to direct the left analgue stick...
Does the left analogue stick produces on-the-spot dribbling animations or does it produces moving-from-the-spot running animations?
In PES10, and FIFA10, and PES11, and FIFA11, and PES5, and PES6, it is impossible to do any stationary dribbling via the left analogue stick, because the left analogue stick always produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS... it does not matters if you are holding or not holding the R1 SPRINT button or the R2 CLOSE CONTROL button: the left analogue stick ALWAYS produces or triggers running animations.
This means, that it is very possible to cover distances of over 100 feet, without ever touching the SPRINT button... because the left analogue stick AUTOMATICALLY produces running animations.
This is why you can play PES5, PES6, PES10, FIFA10, PES11, FIFA11, on the same day; and you will find out that the left analogue stick still works identically to how it worked in PES5, the only difference is that there are now more directions to run into.
Adding directions to a FLAWED CONCEPT will not rectify or fix the flaw, it will hide the underlying flaw better, but the flaw is still there at the end of the day.
I describe the left analogue stick concept, as a uni-polar concept, because there is only one facet to it, one layer to it, one dimension to it: RUNNING ANIMATIONS...
And why is this such a big problem?
It is a big problem because the left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, the left analogue stick is responsible for running, dribbling, passing, and shooting. And what happens when the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept?
What happens is, that if you direct the left analogue stick mid-way, this will be enough to produce or trigger RUNNING ANIMATIONS... And when you want a subtle passing animation, or a subtle dribbling animation, or a subtle shooting animation, you need to be very precise because the left analogue stick is trigger happy, and will produce RUNNING ANIMATIONS at the slightest of touches.
And the big problem with this, the big limitation, is that the scope of non-running animations that can be implemented into the left analogue stick... is very limited; so limited, that, as a matter of fact, it is impossible to dribble without running because the left analogue stick does not produces on-the-spot dribbling animations, and we only have a handful of passing and shooting animations to choose from.
In other words, if the moving range of the left analogue stick, from the center to as far as it can go in any direction, is of 1 to 10; and out of that range of movement, 3 to 10 produces running animations... this means that you can only implement non-running animations from 1 to 3.
The scope is very limited because the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept.
In PES10, and FIFA10, and PES11, and FIFA1, and PES5, and PES6; if the player had his 1st touch on the ball, and you are not holding nor tapping the SPRINT button, and yet, you are directing the left analogue stick towards the right... What would happen if, I do this in any of the mentioned games?
No, the ball carrier will not pass the ball from his left foot to his right foot, without the necessity of running; no, the ball carrier will not shield the ball with the left side of his body, whilst remaining stationary; instead, directing the left analogue stick towards the right, will produce running animations towards the given direction, and will have the ball carrier running 5 or 10 feet into the given direction.
This is why, slow but technically gifted players like Xavi Hernandez tend to loose the ball too easily, because when they start running, they cannot out-run anyone because they are slow... it is impossible to dribble without running; or to be more accurate, it is straight out impossible to dribble on-the-spot with the left analogue stick.
This is why, Kun Aguero is actually better than Xavi Hernandez at shielding the ball, because Kun Aguero has the pace to RUN away from the opponent, and thus maintain possession of the ball.
And this is why EA Sports invented the right analogue stick gimmicks, this is why such gimmicks exist, to give you the ability of dribbling on-the-spot... to give you a cheap alternative without going through the trouble of actually replacing the outdated concept.
The problem is, that the right analogue stick gimmicks are repetitive and systematic, always producing the same identical animation; the other problem with it, is that it's not very accessible, not intuitive enough... for instance, the thumb that you use when passing the ball or when having a go at goal, is the same thumb that you use when using the right analogue stick dribbling tricks.
On the other hand, if we had all these dribbling animations attached to the left analogue sick, it would be a lot more intuitive and acessible, because your right thumb is ready to measure that pass or that shot.
In other words, EA Sports did not fixed the flaw, EA Sports did not replaced the outdated and flawed concept, EA Sports simply offered an alternative, added a detail which is attached to the right analogue stick; yet the FACT remains, that the left analogue stick is the hearbeat of everything, you do not use the right analogue stick when you pass the ball nor when you shot the ball.
The right analogue stick gimmicks, help hide the flaw, it minimizes the limitations of the uni-polar left analogue stick concept; yet the flaw is still there at the end of the day, because the left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, and if you minimize the scope of non-running animations which can be attached to the left analogue stick, you minimize everything.
So, 360 dribbling?
I do not think so, Konami and EA Sports have sold you the idea of "dribbling" when in fact you cannot do any dribbling, in truth, it is 360 RUNNING with the brand name "360 dribbling".
Now, what would happen if the uni-polar left analogue stick concept is replaced with a bi-polar concept?
A bi-polar system where,
1st -- it would be impossible to cover distances of over 100 feet, without using the SPRINT button or SPRINT buttons.
2nd -- it would be necesary to kick-start the movement of the ball by tapping one of the two SPRINT buttons (R1 and L1) because the movement of the ball will not automatically kick-start itself.
3rd -- similar to the passing power bar concept, where the left analogue stick determines the direction, and the passing buttons determine the power behind the pass; there would be two different SPRINT buttons, L1 for shorter strides , R1 for longer strides. Thus relieving the left analogue stick from the burdon of determining the distance covered, as well as the direction in which you run.
4th -- there would be a concrete difference between running with the ball and dribbling with the ball, because the left analogue stick will produce different types of animations depending on whether or not you are using the SPRINT button.
5th -- it would be near impossible to dribble past defenders by simply running at them and changing directions, as it would require some build-up dribbling, like in real life, before actually running past the opponent.
A bi-polar concept that would have four different areas attached to the same button,
1st -- running animations: dribbling animations that will move you through the space, animations that will only work when using the SPRINT buttons and maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
2nd -- statinary animations: dribbling animations that will only work when stationary or when the ball movement is dead or nearly dead.
3rd -- dribbling animations: the on-the-spot dribbling animations that will be used when not stationary, when moving or running through space with the ball at your feet.
4th -- shielding animations: animations that would function by holding the R2 button and maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
So that, if you are not holding nor tapping any of the SPRINT buttons, and you direct the left analogue stick slightly towards the right: this will produce a specific type of on-the-spot dribbling animation. On the other hand, if in the same scenario you direct the left analogue stick as far to the right as it can go: it would produce a slightly different, but noticeably different, on-the-spot dribbling animation.
Can you imagine the scope or amount of non-running dribbling animations that could be implemented into a bi-polar left analogue stick system?
On-the-spot animations, dribbling, man-marking, shielding, tackling, passing, shooting, without the necessity of moving from the space nor moving through space; it would change the whole experience.
In case you are baffled by the "bi-polar" concept that I just tried to explain as best as I could and as briefly as I could. Here is a clearer article which might, perhaps, give you a better understanding of where I'm coming from,
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/5261.html
------------------------------
Part II, the defensive system
------------------------------
Both PES and FIFA revolve around the same uni-polar concept, and this is why, the defensive system in PES is broken and the defensive system in FIFA is also broken.
I think 360 RUNNING is rather unnecessary, I don't want 360 running, I don't see footballers running in circles like a bunch of morons...
Yet with PES and FIFA, you can choose to be a moron, you can decide to run in circles whenever you feel like it, you can break the game whenever you feel like it because there is no structure and no consistency to how the game is played, and this is the reason for why the game is broken...
You see, the defensive system and the one versus one system are different areas of the game, you could have an outdated one versus one system and yet, have a very good defensive system. However, the problem is that a competent defensive system would expose the uni-polar left analogue stick concept for what it is.
Of course, to hide the fact that you cannot actually do any dribbling, they use a broken defensive system...
In real life, before you get past a defender, there is some build-up dribbling before actually running past the defender; in PES and FIFA, it skips the build-up dribbling and goes straight to running... this is why the one versus one system is hugely outdated, because it's PES5 with more directions attached to it.
This is why in PES10, it is actually easier to give the ball to Lio Messi and RUN your way to goal, than actually playing proper football... because the one versus one system is outdated and the defensive system is broken,
Which means that the ball does not nessecarily dictates the movement of a DMF because the user literally has full manual control over the direction in which the DMF runs, the DMF can always move in accodance to how the user wants him to move, the DMF can always move in accordance to what the user can see from his wide view perpspective... the DMF has a super-human perspective, which enables him with the ability of reacting and moving in accordance to things that are happening behind his back.
This means that there is no structure to how the game plays, and also, that the movement of the ball does not necessarily dictates the movements of the DMF; but of course, this broken defensive system minimizes the limitations of the outdated left analogue stick concept... because the broken defensive system and the outdated one versus one system, both revolve around RUNNING, and thus creates the illusion of "dribbling" when in fact it is impossible to do any manual on-the-spot dribbling nor any manual on-the-spot defending, you can only RUN with the ball... and this is why the gameplay concept revolves around RUNNING and not around playing proper Football.
This is why in PES10, it is actually easier to give the ball to Lio Messi and RUN your way to goal, than actually bother playing proper football... because the gameplay concept as a whole, is broken and revolves around RUNNING, and Messi is a fast and skillful player who can consistently RUN his way past 4 defenders and score an easy goal.
If you stop running around like a headless chicken, and if you ever get tired of holding on to the R1 SPRINT button, you might acknowledge just how fruitless the defensive concept is...
Having full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which your DMF runs without the ball... In what way does it enrich the experience? In what way does it requires any skill to hold the R1 SPRINT button and run after the ball like a headless chicken?
It is completely redundant, it creates an illusion of control and responsiveness when in fact it gives you LESS control and LESS substance, and it is the reason for why the game is broken; and obviously, it barely requires any skills, because everything is overwhelmingly obvious and predictable from our wide view perspective.
The full manual control that you have when defending, in terms of the direction in which a defensive midfielder RUNS without the ball, is attached to ONE button: the left analogue stick...
And guess what? You have 9 players on the pitch, the 9 players are attached to ONE button, which renders the defensive system as redundant and 90% automatic and scripted.
This is why Bolton can hold possession like Barcelona FC, and this is why, when it happens, you cannot do anything about it... because the defensive system is broken; when defending, you can only react to circumstances by running after the ball like a headless chicken or by reacting like a human being who has eyes behind his back and can react and move in accordance to things that are happening behind his back.
This does not gives the user more control, this merely minimizes the limitations of the outdated one versus one system.
The defensive system is currently broken, has always been broken, and will always be broken: it needs to be replaced with a competent system that has more to do with playing football and less to do with running around like a headless chicken.
Adding directions to a FLAWED CONCEPT will not rectify or fix the flaw, it will hide the underlying flaw better, but the flaw is still there at the end of the day.
---------------------------
Part III, bottom line
---------------------------
So between PES and FIFA,
Both video games revolve around the same outdated concept, with a different feel to it, a different look to it, but the same old concept at the root of it all. it's great to have a bi-polar passing concept where you need to be accuracte in terms of directions and power, but passing is attached to the left analogue stick, and the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept.
This is why I can play PES5, PES6, PES10, FIFA10, on the same day, and not notice any difference in how the left analogue stick works and how the game is played; it's the same old concept with more directions attached to it, but just as broken and as predictable as it's ever been.
PES or FIFA?
A matter of opinion, both video games have the same fundamental flaws, which one you like the most is down to your taste; but to say that one is better than the other, I believe it is subjective and far from the truth.
I prefer PES over FIFA for whatever the reason, perhaps due to the player individuality and the L2 Strategies; FIFA is too easy and superficial for my taste.
----------------------
Part I, "360 dribbling"
----------------------
I think that, when talking about "360 movement", it is important to acknowledge "360 running" and "360 dribbling" as different and independent areas, which complement each other, but different areas nonetheless.
To call it "360 movement" is too generic and vague, because movement could be running or dribbling, it's not tied to running or dribbling, movement is everything, walking is moving.
As for the idea of 360 movements... I'm going to start by questioning the 360 dribbling that PES and FIFA use: is it 360 dribbling? or 360 running? and how about 360 man-marking?
The 360 "dribbling" that PES and FIFA sell... It's not dribbling, it's running... they are selling an idea of "dribbling" which is in fact an illusion. TRY THE FOLLOWING: stop the movement of the ball, and when stationary, try to direct the left analgue stick...
Does the left analogue stick produces on-the-spot dribbling animations or does it produces moving-from-the-spot running animations?
In PES10, and FIFA10, and PES11, and FIFA11, and PES5, and PES6, it is impossible to do any stationary dribbling via the left analogue stick, because the left analogue stick always produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS... it does not matters if you are holding or not holding the R1 SPRINT button or the R2 CLOSE CONTROL button: the left analogue stick ALWAYS produces or triggers running animations.
This means, that it is very possible to cover distances of over 100 feet, without ever touching the SPRINT button... because the left analogue stick AUTOMATICALLY produces running animations.
This is why you can play PES5, PES6, PES10, FIFA10, PES11, FIFA11, on the same day; and you will find out that the left analogue stick still works identically to how it worked in PES5, the only difference is that there are now more directions to run into.
Adding directions to a FLAWED CONCEPT will not rectify or fix the flaw, it will hide the underlying flaw better, but the flaw is still there at the end of the day.
I describe the left analogue stick concept, as a uni-polar concept, because there is only one facet to it, one layer to it, one dimension to it: RUNNING ANIMATIONS...
And why is this such a big problem?
It is a big problem because the left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, the left analogue stick is responsible for running, dribbling, passing, and shooting. And what happens when the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept?
What happens is, that if you direct the left analogue stick mid-way, this will be enough to produce or trigger RUNNING ANIMATIONS... And when you want a subtle passing animation, or a subtle dribbling animation, or a subtle shooting animation, you need to be very precise because the left analogue stick is trigger happy, and will produce RUNNING ANIMATIONS at the slightest of touches.
And the big problem with this, the big limitation, is that the scope of non-running animations that can be implemented into the left analogue stick... is very limited; so limited, that, as a matter of fact, it is impossible to dribble without running because the left analogue stick does not produces on-the-spot dribbling animations, and we only have a handful of passing and shooting animations to choose from.
In other words, if the moving range of the left analogue stick, from the center to as far as it can go in any direction, is of 1 to 10; and out of that range of movement, 3 to 10 produces running animations... this means that you can only implement non-running animations from 1 to 3.
The scope is very limited because the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept.
In PES10, and FIFA10, and PES11, and FIFA1, and PES5, and PES6; if the player had his 1st touch on the ball, and you are not holding nor tapping the SPRINT button, and yet, you are directing the left analogue stick towards the right... What would happen if, I do this in any of the mentioned games?
No, the ball carrier will not pass the ball from his left foot to his right foot, without the necessity of running; no, the ball carrier will not shield the ball with the left side of his body, whilst remaining stationary; instead, directing the left analogue stick towards the right, will produce running animations towards the given direction, and will have the ball carrier running 5 or 10 feet into the given direction.
This is why, slow but technically gifted players like Xavi Hernandez tend to loose the ball too easily, because when they start running, they cannot out-run anyone because they are slow... it is impossible to dribble without running; or to be more accurate, it is straight out impossible to dribble on-the-spot with the left analogue stick.
This is why, Kun Aguero is actually better than Xavi Hernandez at shielding the ball, because Kun Aguero has the pace to RUN away from the opponent, and thus maintain possession of the ball.
And this is why EA Sports invented the right analogue stick gimmicks, this is why such gimmicks exist, to give you the ability of dribbling on-the-spot... to give you a cheap alternative without going through the trouble of actually replacing the outdated concept.
The problem is, that the right analogue stick gimmicks are repetitive and systematic, always producing the same identical animation; the other problem with it, is that it's not very accessible, not intuitive enough... for instance, the thumb that you use when passing the ball or when having a go at goal, is the same thumb that you use when using the right analogue stick dribbling tricks.
On the other hand, if we had all these dribbling animations attached to the left analogue sick, it would be a lot more intuitive and acessible, because your right thumb is ready to measure that pass or that shot.
In other words, EA Sports did not fixed the flaw, EA Sports did not replaced the outdated and flawed concept, EA Sports simply offered an alternative, added a detail which is attached to the right analogue stick; yet the FACT remains, that the left analogue stick is the hearbeat of everything, you do not use the right analogue stick when you pass the ball nor when you shot the ball.
The right analogue stick gimmicks, help hide the flaw, it minimizes the limitations of the uni-polar left analogue stick concept; yet the flaw is still there at the end of the day, because the left analogue stick is the heartbeat of everything, and if you minimize the scope of non-running animations which can be attached to the left analogue stick, you minimize everything.
So, 360 dribbling?
I do not think so, Konami and EA Sports have sold you the idea of "dribbling" when in fact you cannot do any dribbling, in truth, it is 360 RUNNING with the brand name "360 dribbling".
Now, what would happen if the uni-polar left analogue stick concept is replaced with a bi-polar concept?
A bi-polar system where,
1st -- it would be impossible to cover distances of over 100 feet, without using the SPRINT button or SPRINT buttons.
2nd -- it would be necesary to kick-start the movement of the ball by tapping one of the two SPRINT buttons (R1 and L1) because the movement of the ball will not automatically kick-start itself.
3rd -- similar to the passing power bar concept, where the left analogue stick determines the direction, and the passing buttons determine the power behind the pass; there would be two different SPRINT buttons, L1 for shorter strides , R1 for longer strides. Thus relieving the left analogue stick from the burdon of determining the distance covered, as well as the direction in which you run.
4th -- there would be a concrete difference between running with the ball and dribbling with the ball, because the left analogue stick will produce different types of animations depending on whether or not you are using the SPRINT button.
5th -- it would be near impossible to dribble past defenders by simply running at them and changing directions, as it would require some build-up dribbling, like in real life, before actually running past the opponent.
A bi-polar concept that would have four different areas attached to the same button,
1st -- running animations: dribbling animations that will move you through the space, animations that will only work when using the SPRINT buttons and maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
2nd -- statinary animations: dribbling animations that will only work when stationary or when the ball movement is dead or nearly dead.
3rd -- dribbling animations: the on-the-spot dribbling animations that will be used when not stationary, when moving or running through space with the ball at your feet.
4th -- shielding animations: animations that would function by holding the R2 button and maneuvering with the left analogue stick.
So that, if you are not holding nor tapping any of the SPRINT buttons, and you direct the left analogue stick slightly towards the right: this will produce a specific type of on-the-spot dribbling animation. On the other hand, if in the same scenario you direct the left analogue stick as far to the right as it can go: it would produce a slightly different, but noticeably different, on-the-spot dribbling animation.
Can you imagine the scope or amount of non-running dribbling animations that could be implemented into a bi-polar left analogue stick system?
On-the-spot animations, dribbling, man-marking, shielding, tackling, passing, shooting, without the necessity of moving from the space nor moving through space; it would change the whole experience.
In case you are baffled by the "bi-polar" concept that I just tried to explain as best as I could and as briefly as I could. Here is a clearer article which might, perhaps, give you a better understanding of where I'm coming from,
http://abyss-watcher.livejournal.com/5261.html
------------------------------
Part II, the defensive system
------------------------------
Both PES and FIFA revolve around the same uni-polar concept, and this is why, the defensive system in PES is broken and the defensive system in FIFA is also broken.
I think 360 RUNNING is rather unnecessary, I don't want 360 running, I don't see footballers running in circles like a bunch of morons...
Yet with PES and FIFA, you can choose to be a moron, you can decide to run in circles whenever you feel like it, you can break the game whenever you feel like it because there is no structure and no consistency to how the game is played, and this is the reason for why the game is broken...
You see, the defensive system and the one versus one system are different areas of the game, you could have an outdated one versus one system and yet, have a very good defensive system. However, the problem is that a competent defensive system would expose the uni-polar left analogue stick concept for what it is.
Of course, to hide the fact that you cannot actually do any dribbling, they use a broken defensive system...
In real life, before you get past a defender, there is some build-up dribbling before actually running past the defender; in PES and FIFA, it skips the build-up dribbling and goes straight to running... this is why the one versus one system is hugely outdated, because it's PES5 with more directions attached to it.
This is why in PES10, it is actually easier to give the ball to Lio Messi and RUN your way to goal, than actually playing proper football... because the one versus one system is outdated and the defensive system is broken,
Which means that the ball does not nessecarily dictates the movement of a DMF because the user literally has full manual control over the direction in which the DMF runs, the DMF can always move in accodance to how the user wants him to move, the DMF can always move in accordance to what the user can see from his wide view perpspective... the DMF has a super-human perspective, which enables him with the ability of reacting and moving in accordance to things that are happening behind his back.
This means that there is no structure to how the game plays, and also, that the movement of the ball does not necessarily dictates the movements of the DMF; but of course, this broken defensive system minimizes the limitations of the outdated left analogue stick concept... because the broken defensive system and the outdated one versus one system, both revolve around RUNNING, and thus creates the illusion of "dribbling" when in fact it is impossible to do any manual on-the-spot dribbling nor any manual on-the-spot defending, you can only RUN with the ball... and this is why the gameplay concept revolves around RUNNING and not around playing proper Football.
This is why in PES10, it is actually easier to give the ball to Lio Messi and RUN your way to goal, than actually bother playing proper football... because the gameplay concept as a whole, is broken and revolves around RUNNING, and Messi is a fast and skillful player who can consistently RUN his way past 4 defenders and score an easy goal.
If you stop running around like a headless chicken, and if you ever get tired of holding on to the R1 SPRINT button, you might acknowledge just how fruitless the defensive concept is...
Having full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which your DMF runs without the ball... In what way does it enrich the experience? In what way does it requires any skill to hold the R1 SPRINT button and run after the ball like a headless chicken?
It is completely redundant, it creates an illusion of control and responsiveness when in fact it gives you LESS control and LESS substance, and it is the reason for why the game is broken; and obviously, it barely requires any skills, because everything is overwhelmingly obvious and predictable from our wide view perspective.
The full manual control that you have when defending, in terms of the direction in which a defensive midfielder RUNS without the ball, is attached to ONE button: the left analogue stick...
And guess what? You have 9 players on the pitch, the 9 players are attached to ONE button, which renders the defensive system as redundant and 90% automatic and scripted.
This is why Bolton can hold possession like Barcelona FC, and this is why, when it happens, you cannot do anything about it... because the defensive system is broken; when defending, you can only react to circumstances by running after the ball like a headless chicken or by reacting like a human being who has eyes behind his back and can react and move in accordance to things that are happening behind his back.
This does not gives the user more control, this merely minimizes the limitations of the outdated one versus one system.
The defensive system is currently broken, has always been broken, and will always be broken: it needs to be replaced with a competent system that has more to do with playing football and less to do with running around like a headless chicken.
Adding directions to a FLAWED CONCEPT will not rectify or fix the flaw, it will hide the underlying flaw better, but the flaw is still there at the end of the day.
---------------------------
Part III, bottom line
---------------------------
So between PES and FIFA,
Both video games revolve around the same outdated concept, with a different feel to it, a different look to it, but the same old concept at the root of it all. it's great to have a bi-polar passing concept where you need to be accuracte in terms of directions and power, but passing is attached to the left analogue stick, and the left analogue stick concept is a uni-polar concept.
This is why I can play PES5, PES6, PES10, FIFA10, on the same day, and not notice any difference in how the left analogue stick works and how the game is played; it's the same old concept with more directions attached to it, but just as broken and as predictable as it's ever been.
PES or FIFA?
A matter of opinion, both video games have the same fundamental flaws, which one you like the most is down to your taste; but to say that one is better than the other, I believe it is subjective and far from the truth.
I prefer PES over FIFA for whatever the reason, perhaps due to the player individuality and the L2 Strategies; FIFA is too easy and superficial for my taste.
fick
Registered User
Ironically, the reviewer in questions did say FIFA isn't perfect, but clarified this by saying FIFA's problems are not as noticeable.
Gloss, may be aesthetic, but if it hides the cracks...
RAMAXWY
Registered User
bastards,but you are right.
starting to doubt wether i should only buy PES this year.
is it really that better compared to the demo?
What's with all these ESSAYS?
Seriously, I just read 9 pages of this 5-star thread and the last thing I wanna see is another 20 paragraph essay by Amateur.. lol. Great passion, but man, my eyes are starting to hurt now.
ANd yeah, those pro-fifa reviewers are on crack or something, probably know nothing about football and just sit all day in their offices playing games, so they judge FIFA and Pro Evo on those standards... Fifa is pretty, yeah, but as a football game, PES has always been the tactically superior, and saying it has no depth is just beyond me. Kinda makes me wanna walk in there and whack the guy upside the head with a copy of PES 11, and make him play it again till he gets it right. Damn shame.
Seriously, I just read 9 pages of this 5-star thread and the last thing I wanna see is another 20 paragraph essay by Amateur.. lol. Great passion, but man, my eyes are starting to hurt now.
ANd yeah, those pro-fifa reviewers are on crack or something, probably know nothing about football and just sit all day in their offices playing games, so they judge FIFA and Pro Evo on those standards... Fifa is pretty, yeah, but as a football game, PES has always been the tactically superior, and saying it has no depth is just beyond me. Kinda makes me wanna walk in there and whack the guy upside the head with a copy of PES 11, and make him play it again till he gets it right. Damn shame.
shaun7
Registered User
Some people can see through cracks though.
And fifa's problems are not as noticeable AT FIRST. Because anyone with eyes can see them well when comparing it to real football. But anyway again, it's his opinion.
But my point still stands. Professional reviewers should be much better than that, seriously.
Tech_Skill
Registered User
Right, well for the first time in a few years, I will NOT be buying FIFA11 on its UK release date tomorrow. And guess what, Im reading Evo Web and seeing a few posters SLATE the game BAD, and guess what, its the SAME shit I orginally posted in this thread, pressure trash games, one of the shittest tackling systems made in years, Lack of personality and the list goes on also starting to see the first batch of bugs being noticed in the final version, Man its hilarious, seeing comments like ''messi tackles as well as puyol'', you dont need the final version to see that, I was reporting this kind of shit at the beggining on this thread and put vids in here to prove it.
Amateur
Registered User
Of course FIFA11 is the same old, adding details to a flawed concept will not actually fix the outdated concept.
Details like the R2 close control, right analogue stick, are just cheap alternative that will never fix what needs to be fixed... which is that the game is in fact broken.
PES: stagnant off-the-ball movement, but as a positive, the tackling system is not as bad as FIFA; as a negative, too easy to hold possession.
FIFA: responsive and more lively off-the-ball movement, more difficult to hold on to possession, but as a negative, the tackling system is bullshit.
PES and FIFA have a different feel and a different look, but the underlying flaw is the same, and the reason for why the mentioned flaws exist is because of that underlying flaw.
The most vocal fans, in my experience, are almost always wrong; they criticize an obvious flaw without actually understanding why the flaw exists... which makes their whole argument redundant and subjective.
I think the whole PES vs FIFA debate is outdated at this point, both games have flaws, both games are "improving" at snail pace, and certainly, FIFA is not better than PES.
If they replace the uni-polar left analogue stick concept with a bi-polar left analogue stick concept: they fix the long standing flaw, change how the game is played... that's innovation, that would be a proper revolution.
That's the bottom line,
The left analogue stick has a range of movement from 1 to 10; running animations are implemented from 2 to 10, and non-running animations (passing, shooting, stationary dribbling, trapping) are implemented into the 1 to 2 range of movement, which means that only a handful of non-running animations can be implemented into the game.
The uni-polar left analogue stick cannot handle more animations, there's no more space, the left analogue stick has a range of movement, and that's it...
This is why we have the right analogue stick dribbling tricks and the R2 close control, so that Konami and EA Sports can continue adding little bits of animations without actually fixing the underlying flaw... cheap alternatives which only serve to hide the flaw but will never actually fix the flaw.
You direct the shot, the pass, the running, the defending, with the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK...
Where the fuck is the RIGHT ANALOGUE STICK when we are directing a pass or aiming a shot?
The right analogue dribbling tricks, it's just a gimmick, a detail. The R2 close control, another detail.
You change how the LEFT ANALOGUE STICK works, you change how the game is played, you take your game to a new level.
Unfortunately, they don't seem keen on replacing the old left analogue stick concept, it's always cheap gimmicks which will not fix what should have been fixed by now.
PES: "engineered for freedom"
FIFA: "player individuality"
DunkTheJunk
Registered User
Just hold left bumper when you pass
the player passing the ball then makes a run through to attack. But, yeah i basically agree with all of the points you have made. All the technical shit aside, I find pes more enjoyable than fifa and i have much more fun with pes, theres more excitement when you score a goal as aposed to fifa, and thats what i think is most important, even though the previous versions did have some very frustrating aspects.
Tech_Skill
Registered User
4 hours on, im still trying to work out what the fuck Amateur is talking about, I kinda see what he's saying about how you can do much with the left stick other than stand still or run (in fifa there is an inbetween slow dribble you can do if you dont push the analouge stick all the to the max) but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like laser guided passing and player individuality and the other aspects of these football games that need correcting, or maybe I dont understand at all LMAO.
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick, so you press the stick in a direction to mimic the direction of the pass, the longer you pull or push the stick, the more power, let the player attributes have a say in both the power and direction....does that free up the left analogue stick for doing more stuff??? (long passing is easy, assign a shoulder button, and hold it down whilst moving the stick for long pass etc)
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick, so you press the stick in a direction to mimic the direction of the pass, the longer you pull or push the stick, the more power, let the player attributes have a say in both the power and direction....does that free up the left analogue stick for doing more stuff??? (long passing is easy, assign a shoulder button, and hold it down whilst moving the stick for long pass etc)
muzza798
Registered User
There is such a lack of variety in fifa I seriously cannot sit there and complete 1 match. I play for about 30 mins (game time) and just say out loud "fuck this". The game is so fucking boring. Everyone is the same, everyone moves the same etc. They 'styles' of play are all the same, when I attack its the same type of attack. I basically can disengage my brain for 10 mins during the game cos it requires absolute zero brain power to play. Its just 1 touch and pass, 1 touch and pass all the way down the pitch.
Pes has sop much variety in dribbling, shooting, senarios...etc
Pes is so supierior to fifa that I don't know y people like fifa for anything other than online. Fifa 09 great game and loved it but 10 and 11 are so dull and lapluster.
Pes has sop much variety in dribbling, shooting, senarios...etc
Pes is so supierior to fifa that I don't know y people like fifa for anything other than online. Fifa 09 great game and loved it but 10 and 11 are so dull and lapluster.
Can I just take a few moments to salute Mr 'Tech_Skill' for his comments.
Not only was his first post quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on any forum on the web, but one of the most intelligent. I'm not quite sure if Tech is trying to entertain us all, as well as inform us, but it's working, even if it is just his temper over-boiling. I could read that all s**t all night.
Tech - nice one.
I'm very impressed with the demo so far. Pro Evo's, not Fifa. Not the penalties though.
SEVEN DAYS!
Not only was his first post quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on any forum on the web, but one of the most intelligent. I'm not quite sure if Tech is trying to entertain us all, as well as inform us, but it's working, even if it is just his temper over-boiling. I could read that all s**t all night.
Tech - nice one.
I'm very impressed with the demo so far. Pro Evo's, not Fifa. Not the penalties though.
SEVEN DAYS!
The problem with FIFA and in-particular EA Sports is that they try to capitalize on just about everything JUST so it sells more than its competition. This isn’t just FIFA, this is every single game they come out with.
Fair enough from a business point of view, of course you are going to try and capitalize on everything to give you that edge sales-wise. That’s just how the world and money works and that will never change.
But for somebody with half a brain cell who can actually use common sense to pick fault with the game and its developers.....should know these things.
EA I feel wrongly claim simulation, this to me is the biggest fraud of all. If you honestly believe anything EA Sports produce, is true to life, apart from the licenses they get, then I seriously think you need looking at!
EA have a habit of making a game to their taste….Even though they’ll feed you with the same old shit “We look at feedback each year!”
Well is it me? or do they not pay any attention to the constructive criticism from people in the know every single year? Am I missing something? Because I still see the same shitty problems with FIFA 10 that I saw in FIFA 98!
They’ll try and bend the rules of the sport, polish them, give it a fancy name and THEN try and make out it deserves £40. I honestly think EA have made FIFA 09 4 times, 09 (obviously), 10, World Cup and now 11.
Progress for me with EA is slug like, it barely changes each year and apart from the odd add-on here and there, it really doesn’t warrant a new game each year.
The thing I get with EA and especially the majority of its gaming community is that they’ve kind of brainwashed its buyers, so that they think that getting everything done for them in the game (I.E. Pressure, tackling, passing etc) is the way every game should be and if it doesn’t meet those (Automatic) standards then that must mean the game is hopeless.
That’s why many FIFA players will give PES a go and say (The passing’s shit, the shootings shit, it won’t tackle when I hold the button down, I can’t win a header and then instead of thinking about what to say, the same old tripe comes out, THIS IS ARCADE!)
Errrrr, whats FIFA then?
That’s the major difference between PES and FIFA, PES encourages practice, yet gives you the INITIATIVE to want to play it more and more to get to that level you feel comfortable with (addictive). PES isn’t perfect (Nothing is!) but what you do get with Pro Evo is a sense of CONTROL over what you want to do, what you TELL the pad to do. That connection is there with button and ball (More than ever in PES 2011) but the fundamental and system has always been there from day 1!
I’ll be the first to admit, I thought PES 2009 was atrocious (every time you turned 45 degrees, it did a feint) PES 2010 wasn’t brilliant, but it showed improvement, and PES 2011 has improved once again from its younger brother.
That’s what you want to see EACH YEAR, significant improvement!
I find myself with FIFA when you look at it and play it enough, it’s actually surprising just how little control you have over ANYTHING, For instance heres a everyday attack on goal in FIFA:
(You’ll tell the pad to shoot, it won’t, and it will take extra 2 touches and then get tackled because of it.)
Did I want it to do that? Did I tell it to do that? NO…..If I wanted to take a touch, I would’ve told it to….then got the shot of when I told it to.
Yet you know as well as me you will get the usual “Don’t knock it till you’ve tried the demo and full game” JIBBERISH. It’s gotten to the point with EA Sports, I KNOW what to expect before its even been talked about by its Dev’s. Call me mystic meg, but when you play all the sport games it produce’s and see similar problems with all of them, and then the same problems happen again on its next installment. How does that give you the confidence that the next one will sort it out? When they haven’t done fuck all about that same naggy problem for 3 years+ and the same dev’s are there making the new one? Ay?
That’s why I refused to download FIFA 11’s demo, that’s why I won’t be buying it either!
So for all those that want a mainstream automatic gitchfest, fuck of on GLITCH 11,
All those that want a representation of football, play PES.
Fair enough from a business point of view, of course you are going to try and capitalize on everything to give you that edge sales-wise. That’s just how the world and money works and that will never change.
But for somebody with half a brain cell who can actually use common sense to pick fault with the game and its developers.....should know these things.
EA I feel wrongly claim simulation, this to me is the biggest fraud of all. If you honestly believe anything EA Sports produce, is true to life, apart from the licenses they get, then I seriously think you need looking at!
EA have a habit of making a game to their taste….Even though they’ll feed you with the same old shit “We look at feedback each year!”
Well is it me? or do they not pay any attention to the constructive criticism from people in the know every single year? Am I missing something? Because I still see the same shitty problems with FIFA 10 that I saw in FIFA 98!
They’ll try and bend the rules of the sport, polish them, give it a fancy name and THEN try and make out it deserves £40. I honestly think EA have made FIFA 09 4 times, 09 (obviously), 10, World Cup and now 11.
Progress for me with EA is slug like, it barely changes each year and apart from the odd add-on here and there, it really doesn’t warrant a new game each year.
The thing I get with EA and especially the majority of its gaming community is that they’ve kind of brainwashed its buyers, so that they think that getting everything done for them in the game (I.E. Pressure, tackling, passing etc) is the way every game should be and if it doesn’t meet those (Automatic) standards then that must mean the game is hopeless.
That’s why many FIFA players will give PES a go and say (The passing’s shit, the shootings shit, it won’t tackle when I hold the button down, I can’t win a header and then instead of thinking about what to say, the same old tripe comes out, THIS IS ARCADE!)
Errrrr, whats FIFA then?
That’s the major difference between PES and FIFA, PES encourages practice, yet gives you the INITIATIVE to want to play it more and more to get to that level you feel comfortable with (addictive). PES isn’t perfect (Nothing is!) but what you do get with Pro Evo is a sense of CONTROL over what you want to do, what you TELL the pad to do. That connection is there with button and ball (More than ever in PES 2011) but the fundamental and system has always been there from day 1!
I’ll be the first to admit, I thought PES 2009 was atrocious (every time you turned 45 degrees, it did a feint) PES 2010 wasn’t brilliant, but it showed improvement, and PES 2011 has improved once again from its younger brother.
That’s what you want to see EACH YEAR, significant improvement!
I find myself with FIFA when you look at it and play it enough, it’s actually surprising just how little control you have over ANYTHING, For instance heres a everyday attack on goal in FIFA:
(You’ll tell the pad to shoot, it won’t, and it will take extra 2 touches and then get tackled because of it.)
Did I want it to do that? Did I tell it to do that? NO…..If I wanted to take a touch, I would’ve told it to….then got the shot of when I told it to.
Yet you know as well as me you will get the usual “Don’t knock it till you’ve tried the demo and full game” JIBBERISH. It’s gotten to the point with EA Sports, I KNOW what to expect before its even been talked about by its Dev’s. Call me mystic meg, but when you play all the sport games it produce’s and see similar problems with all of them, and then the same problems happen again on its next installment. How does that give you the confidence that the next one will sort it out? When they haven’t done fuck all about that same naggy problem for 3 years+ and the same dev’s are there making the new one? Ay?
That’s why I refused to download FIFA 11’s demo, that’s why I won’t be buying it either!
So for all those that want a mainstream automatic gitchfest, fuck of on GLITCH 11,
All those that want a representation of football, play PES.
Oh I forgot to mention that 2 button control system on the world cup game.
A control system that existed of only 2 BUTTONS, PASS and SHOOT.
Am I on planet bong?
Night Night everybody
Well.... that 2-button system is pure genius, when my sisters 6 year old son wants to play against me!!!! I even have problems beating him - so that 2-button system is absolutely genius, when your playing against a totally newcomer!!!
Tech_Skill
Registered User
Look, at the end of the day, you should have played the fifa 11 demo, its still better than PES2011 in quite a few areas and in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT, this year things might be a little different, but you should have played fifa11 and tested it because there are things in the game like Player movement which still kick PES's ass.
This is exactly what my point is, although it may benefit a 6 year old, a dad or a granddad, that is purely why it has been put into the game, in hope of gaining more sales by doing so.
There are too many aids and assists with FIFA, like I said it tries to cater for everyone, whilst missing the point of the basics somewhat.
For me a computer game has to be a challenge, not necessarily hard to get to grips with, but a challenge. (So 10 months down the line it’s still got you wanting more…) PES has always had that challenge and skill to be good. Yes down the years it’s had overpowered players just like FIFA has had, but to get the fundamentals and basic things right, it takes time to learn and practice. UNLIKE FIFA, (which I believe anybody can play on and compete after 1 or 2 games using Barca.)
The way I looked at it, was this.... for me to get any joy out of a broken game like FIFA 10….I HAD to go fully manual, that way I knew the mistakes I made, I MADE! Not some shitty A.I.! If I misplaced a pass, it was down to number 1, if I shot wide, it was my fault. But to me it felt like a totally different game within a game when I done this, just solely because error was there and mistakes could happen so it wasn’t automatic at all.
I did enjoy fully manual a lot because it had some reward to how you played, you wasn’t going to curl one in on the volley, top bag from 30 yards out every time, but when you did, you was proud of what you done, not the assist.
What is the point of buying a game?
My idea is that every game should make you want to practice to get good at the game, not with shitty assists and aids, but getting good yourself over time. Look at it like this, a baby can’t run before it can walk.
And THIS is the problem with FIFA; it is running before it can even CRAWL.
For all the criticism Pro Evo gets from FIFA fan boys about it being “arcade….” At least PES progresses (Maybe a little slow at times) each year, in the way that it feels RIGHT, it doesn’t feel out of place, it feels as if it can be built upon.
I mean FIFA 11 (Be a Goalkeeper) how the FUCK have they managed to do that? The goalkeepers are a total shambles now and if they’re not fixed and worked on, just as much as the rest of the aspects of the game, it’s not going to get any better anytime soon. Yet EA Sports are going to give you “control” of this broken, untested mess?
….and then has the nerve to say…."We are 11."
It would be like doing (Be a Goalkeeper) on PES 11, it wouldn’t work because it’s not ready or prepared for it, so instead of putting it in there for the sake of it, Konami will get the goalkeepers right first before even talking about such a thing. So it will feel right when it is there.
But once again EA Sports rush into it to make the £$£.
A total mess, over a total mess.
Why should I associate myself with something I don’t agree with or believe in?
I made that conscience decision about 6 months into FIFA 10, that I wouldn’t be buying FIFA 11. I wouldn’t even accept it, or play it if EA Sports gave it me for free! I wouldn’t even download its demo. I have stuck to that promise, and I still will.
It had my support for a few years, but it hasn’t really gone anywhere other than down.
"in my opinion, fifa has been the better game of the last few years FACT"
That’s one of the problems with the FIFA community; they see their opinions as facts. However that’s just the view you have of the game, other people may see different. Yes it might have sold more, and yes it may have gotten better reviews. But that doesn’t mean its BETTER, neither does it mean PES is better either.
You play the one you prefer, if you think it’s better than the other that’s fine, that is your opinion nobody can change that. But it’s not fact.
It will be very very interesting this time next week I think.