4 hours on, im still trying to work out what the fuck Amateur is talking about, I kinda see what he's saying about how you can do much with the left stick other than stand still or run (in fifa there is an inbetween slow dribble you can do if you dont push the analouge stick all the to the max) but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like laser guided passing and player individuality and the other aspects of these football games that need correcting, or maybe I dont understand at all LMAO.
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick, so you press the stick in a direction to mimic the direction of the pass, the longer you pull or push the stick, the more power, let the player attributes have a say in both the power and direction....does that free up the left analogue stick for doing more stuff??? (long passing is easy, assign a shoulder button, and hold it down whilst moving the stick for long pass etc)
It's fairly simple,
This is why we now have a power bar for passing the ball, because in PES10 the left analogue stick was responsible for both the direction of the pass and the power of the pass... and this limited both dribbling and passing.
Because in PES10, the left analogue stick was responsible for determining the distance of the pass, as well as direction of the pass; as well as the direction in which you run with the ball, and in some instances, it also determines the distance which you cover with the ball.
The uni-polar left analogue stick concept CANNOT handle all these different areas, passing, dribbling, shooting.
This is why dribbling was so simplistic and unresponsive in PES10, because the left analogue stick concept is not flexible; this is why passing felt so outdated when compared with FIFA10.
What they did with Passing, where they added a power bar, so that you now have independent control over the direction and the power of the pass.
The power bar relieved the left analogue stick from the burden of determining the power behind the pass, and thus, you now have more directions and overall better control over your passing.
You do the same thing with dribbling; fairly simple, you add a "power bar" into dribbling... and you relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of unnecessary redundancies.
The power bar concept used for dribbling, would be two different type of SPRINT buttons, one attached to the R1 button and the other to the L1 button: responsive and comfortable controls, to determine the distance covered with the ball at your feet.
For dribbling, you cannot have a "power bar" identical to the one that is used for passing the ball; dribbling demands instantly responsive power bars, the L1 button and the R1 button.
With the additional L1 SPRINT button, you relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of, not only determining the direction in which you run, but also determining the distance of your running or your dribbling...
Now, as a result, if the left analogue stick has a range of movement of 1 to 10: you now have 1 to 10, to implement all sorts of on-the-spot physics and animations.
And thus, if you direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of the SPRINT buttons, the left analogue stick will not produce running animations which affect the direction in which you RUN with the ball, instead, the left analogue stick would produce on-the-spot animations which affect the direction in which you DRIBBLE with the ball.
If you direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT the assistance of the SPRINT buttons, the left analogue stick will not move you from the space, instead, it would produce on-the-spot dribbling animations, on-the-spot stationary dribbling animations, on-the-spot running dribbling animations, on-the-spot trapping animations, on-the-spot passing animations, on-the-spot shooting animations.
Stationary Dribbling -- without the assistance of the sprint buttons, you direct the left analogue stick when stationary or when the ball movement is dead.
Running Dribbling -- without the assistance of the sprint buttons, you direct the left analogue stick when the ball carrier is already running with the ball.
That's how you start a revolution, you replace the thing that is holding everything down...
but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like player individuality
Stationary dribbling -- the higher this attribute the more stationary dribbling animations the player will have, thus enabling him with the ability of shielding the ball without the necessity of running nor moving from the space. (Roman Riquelme, Xavi Hernandez, Andrea Pirlo, Ronaldinho, etc)
Speed Dribbling -- the higher this attribute the more control the player will have when dribbling at speed, the more dribbling animations the player will have when dribbling at high speeds. (Lio Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Arjen Robben, etc)
Passing Technique -- stat to determine the on-the-spot passing animations of the players. The players with good passing technique will have a certain edge, because the passing animations will create passing angles that would be impossible with the average player.
Trapping Technique -- stat to determine the 1st-touch animations of the players. Players with good trapping technique will have a certain edge that the average player will not have.
Shooting Technique -- the higher this attribute the more on-the-spot shooting animations the player will have. Thus Zlatan Ibrahimovic will have countless of on-the-spot shooting animations, that the average player will not have.
Player individuality would flourish in a big way... the more different and specialized types of animations the game has, the more noticeable and relevant the player individuality will be.
If the left analogue stick has a range of movement from 1 to 10, and running animations compose 2 to 10 of that range of movement...
You can see where the problem is, in that you can only implement a handful of non-running animations into a 1 to 2 range of movement, out of a 1 to 10 range of movement.
This is why the game revolves around RUNNING, because the left analogue stick produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS at all times with or without the assistance of a SPRINT button; dribbling, passing, shooting, defending, are all attached to the left analogue stick button.
Konami and EA Sports should make better use of the left analogue stick, replace and rectify the outdated left analogue stick concept, instead of adding more and more little gimmicks in an effort to cover up or hide the underlying flaw.
With dribbling, the left analogue stick is currently responsible for the direction in which you run, the distance covered (in some instances), and we only have ONE sprint button.
So replacing an aged foundation which is about to fall down... That's a start, you fix the damn dribbling system which seems to be designed for 5 year olds: direct the left analogue stick WITHOUT sprint, and you can still cover distances of over 100 feet...
Because the left analogue stick AUTOMATICALLY produces RUNNING ANIMATIONS, without the assistance of a SPRINT button, because it works the same with or without the assistance of a SPRINT button; and thus, it is possible to cover distances of over 100 feet without the assistance of a sprint button.
LMAO
You change how the left analogue stick works, and then you change the defensive system with something that fits in with the new dribbling and man-marking system.
but im not understanding how bringing in different variations of running, walking, dribbling, and movement in general is gonna sort out shit like laser guided and the other aspects of these football games that need correcting,
The problem that you don't seem to fully understand is that the defensive system is broken...
This is why laser guided passing, too easy to hold possession, etc, happens so easily and so consistently; this is why, even though you can see it coming you cannot do anything to prevent it; this is why you can always exploit the same obvious flaw hundreds of times and, from a defensive standpoint, you cannot do anything to prevent it from happening again and again...
Because the defensive system seems to be designed for 5 years olds: run after the ball like a headless chicken, don't think, just do it.
You can only react to circumstances by running around like a headless chicken, but you cannot manipulate what type of circumstance you want to create for the team in possession of the ball.
When the team in possession of the ball starts passing the ball between the CBs and WBs from side to side, and you cannot do anything about it other than running after them like a headless chicken, in vain; why is that?
The defensive system is broken and has been broken since before PES5, it has always been broken; the only difference is that the advances in other areas of the game further expose a flaw that wasn't as evident in games like PES5 and PES6.
It is an obvious and predictable system, with absolutely no SUBSTANCE to it, a headless chicken dance, because the defensive system is designed to hide or minimize the flaws of the outdated left analogue stick concept.
A competent defensive system might actually make the game more boring, because the dribbling system and man-marking system is boring... Konami doesn't seem keen on exposing the weakest area of the game.
The dribbling system does not have an addictive hook to it, and the man-marking system is even worst; Konami needs to add SUBSTANCE into dribbling and man-marking... the way to do this is by making better use of the left analogue stick.
And I reiterate: the defensive system is broken...
The left analogue stick should not be used for manually controlling the direction in which a player runs when you are defending, because the left analogue stick is ONE button, yet we have TEN players on the pitch.
If the left analogue stick is responsible for determining, literally determining, the direction in which all the players RUN without the ball when defending... This means that the defensive system will be broken in one way or the other.
It means that you will spend your time pressing the R1 SPRINT button and directing the left analogue stick, doing trivial and redundant things which have little to do with playing football; even more redundant and trivial, if we consider the fact that everything is overwhelmingly predictable and obvious from our wide view perspective...
We have radar-like vision from our wide view perspective, and even though everything is painfully obvious and predictable... it is inevitable because the defensive system is broken and thus does not provide you with the tools required to play football.
At the same time, the wide view perspective is not responsible for the overwhelming predictable and obvious nature of the video game; the video game is predictable and obvious because the defensive system is predictable, obvious, inadequate, and straight out redundant, it has nothing to do with playing football, it has more to do with Usain Bolt.
And for this reason, defending becomes a boring procedure that you must endure, press R1 and RUN after the ball and apply double-coverage on the ball carrier: there's no substance to this system, no hook that makes it an enjoyable area of the game.
And more importantly, the usage of the left analogue stick is wasted on RUNNING ANIMATIONS as opposed to on-the-spot man-marking animations.
The left analogue stick should shift automatically and change to whomever is closest to the ball carrier, it should revolve around on-the-spot man-marking, and not around mindless moving-from-the-spot running.
MAN-MARKING ANIMATIONS (ON-THE-SPOT): marking the left side of the ball carrier, marking the right side of the ball carrier, center, tactical fouls, using the right foot to intercept a pass or to tackle, using the left foot to intercept a pass or to tackle, etc.
RUNNING ANIMATIONS (MOVING-FROM-THE-SPOT): run and crash into the ball carrier, resulting in endless spot-kicks and fragmented play due to the lack of fluidity... fragmented play being a by-product of the lack of physics/animations.
Running without the ball when defending, should be semi-manual, the user cannot literally have full manual (left analogue stick) control over the directions in which all the players run when defending; instead, attach different players with different roles, DMF, WB, CB, AMF, CMF, CF, to different buttons.
Certain buttons, like the buttons which would be attached to the CFs, will only work when the ball is in the opponent's half of the pitch. Thus, you can sit back with your DMF, and yet dictate the semi-manual movement of one of your CF, because the button attached to the DMF and the button attached to the CF are independent tools.
When the ball crosses over into your half of the pitch, that same button which worked to trigger or produce off-the-ball pressure from your CF, will now work for another player with a different role.
By pressing the mentioned buttons (not specified), the players will automatically run after the ball, the ball dictates the off-the-ball movement: that's how football works.
The DMF will automatically position himself and move differently, to an AMF or WB or CB or CF; different role, different responsibilities, different priorities, different off-the-ball movement.
And thus, if the DMF is attached to the R1 button, and you were holding on to the R1 button when the opponent passed the ball: this will AUTOMATICALLY produce or trigger a specific type of defensive reaction from your DMF.
If you where not holding the R1 button at the time the opponent passed the ball: this will AUTOMATICALLY produce or trigger a slightly different, but decisively different, type of defensive reaction from your DMF.
Thus, you can no longer hold on to the R1 button and run around like a headless chicken because... guess what? You no longer have full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which all your players move without the ball when defending, you can no longer hold on to the R1 button without any type of repercussion.
The defensive system is no longer broken, you now have the control to dictate certain circumstances and therefore manipulate how the team in possession of the ball will attack.
The off-the-ball movement when defending would no longer be scripted by the whims of a COM, instead, the defensive script would be dictated by the calculations or miss-calculations of the user.
You have to THINK about it, you have to time the R1 button, you have to anticipate your opponent, because holding or not holding the R1 button when the opponent passes the ball... will produce different type of defensive reactions from your DMF, and these defensive reactions will be critical when defending.
And when you get there, when you get close to the ball, you have to win the one-versus-one challenge via on-the-spot man-marking animations... as opposed to simply holding the R1 button and crashing into the ball carrier.
It would no longer be the INSUBSTANTIAL headless chicken run that it currently is.
As a result, you relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of redundancies, and can now use the left analogue stick for things that have more to do with playing football and less to do with running around like headless chicken.
You create a new hook for defensive play, so that defending becomes something enjoyable, as opposed to a boring procedure that you must endure when not in possession of the ball.
We should not have full manual (left analogue stick) control over the direction in which your DMF runs without the ball; you need to relieve the left analogue stick from the burden of redundancies, in order to give more CONTROL and more SUBSTANCE to the user.
So,
1st -- you replace the outdated left analogue stick concept.
2nd -- you replace the broken defensive system.
If its any consolation, about a year ago I suggested the passing be moved to the right stick,
Some people might be into that idea,
For my part, I don't like the idea of passing the ball with the right analogue stick... forcing the user into constantly using the right analogue stick, it would feel too systematic for my taste.
I want more intuitive and responsive controls.
hmy: although I have snapped a few discs in half in my time. I do sometimes feel I have less of a connection with my team on fifa because of what you mentioned. With pes last gen I had the feeling that stats would rightly make the difference but I was still in control, on recent additions I score and sometimes feel like the game did it which is just plain wrong and I'm almost certain PES 2012 will be even more manual based. I have just been messing about in arena after some of the excellent discussion in this thread, I was comparing how it felt to shoot and pass with Sneijder compared to Fletcher and I really did feel the difference. I got sick of fifa 10 after a while because it was so stale even on manual, this year I feel key improvements have been made and its clear some of their influences come from last gen PES games. I can't wait for PES 2011 and I may even prefer it to FIFA 11, at the same time I feel FIFA is not far from perfection but whether EA carry on down the path to perfection is upto them. It pains me to say it but if FIFA has a deeper CM with integrated CL and europa League and better team individuality I don't think I would go anywhere near PES.
