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Stop The Scripted Cheating

muscularmatt

Registered User
It's not cheating, grow up.

i agree, not just on PES but on all the gaming forums you get some
paranoid little twerp with this 'boohoo why can't i win all the time'
mentality. the fact that pes is so much harder than other footy
games is what makes it fun! either practice the game and get better,
turn the difficulty down, or STFU
 

MatTheCat

Registered User
. the fact that pes is so much harder than other footy
games is what makes it fun!

You are of course ONLY KIDDING, right?

Once a player works out the exploits they can practically score at will.

Since I dont like your tone much, I think I will spoil the game for you.

To score a guaranteed goal everytime, simply run a fast untacklable player (C Ronaldo, Messi etc) towards the touchline and perhaps 2-3 relative feet wide of the goalpost. When you are about 1 yard or so away from the touchline having given yourself a rather improbable tight angle from which to shoot from, simply tap the shoot button and watch the exact same goal fly in time and time again.

It aint hard dude........

Perhaps you should just learn a bit more about the game before passing such comments.
 

stottmeister

Registered User
aah, now all i need is to buy an un tackleable player.

shame my status in ML will make most of these wonder players piss themselves laughing when i make an offer
 

Amateur

Registered User
^That's the problem. The AI decides for you.


Excactly. I hope pes 2010, has less "AI decides for you" things and will have a manual control system.

What I mean is that Konami should develop a New Concept for dictating the "momentum shifts".

If we could have something like an in-game "Confidence Level" gauge that changes throughout the game. So that the Team with better "Confidence Level" haves the momentum in their favor.

But it must be something that we can manipulate to a certain extent. Maybe if you're dominating the possession -the- momentum will be in your favor. Or if you score 2 quick goals -the- momentum would be in your favor, because your opponent would be completely bummed out.

It must be something that isn't random, a Concept that isn't completely out of our hands. I think it could be a great feature of the game. But if Konami maintains the same Random AI-Controlled "momentum shifts" then I would prefer it if they weren't in the game.

Konami must give us more control of everything, including the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts".
 

Usul

Registered User
I've been saying this for ages. Not Amateur's idea, but the cheating thing. Why can't they make the game so each player just performs to the best of their abilities, and not beyond? Is it so difficult?
 

Keane'o

Registered User
You are of course ONLY KIDDING, right?

Once a player works out the exploits they can practically score at will.

Since I dont like your tone much, I think I will spoil the game for you.

To score a guaranteed goal everytime, simply run a fast untacklable player (C Ronaldo, Messi etc) towards the touchline and perhaps 2-3 relative feet wide of the goalpost. When you are about 1 yard or so away from the touchline having given yourself a rather improbable tight angle from which to shoot from, simply tap the shoot button and watch the exact same goal fly in time and time again.

It aint hard dude........

Perhaps you should just learn a bit more about the game before passing such comments.

LOL....if your good enough you WONT do that and you would be able to cope with people doing it to you...i can (put my trumpet down)

and amateur your idea is great, but i question its practicality. most people cant take it when things are against them at 0-0...i can imagine people doing their nut if they lose a quick goal and are under constant pressure from a confident team....i mean surely its just another game mechanic to be exploited by people obsessed with winning.....like the messi runs etc.

could work a treat though
 

MysteryMan

Registered User
Besides the cheating I also hate the difficulty , its just plain dumb...

When you put it on higher level like top players the AI isn't smarter.... its not better... it just makes their players more superman alike , like a very slow player can outrun Messi and so ... thats really childish and dumb , make the AI SMARTER and play better , not the players better , its not realistic and arcade like.
 

shaun7

Registered User
^That's what I'm talking about. That's when I get angry, when the AI palyers turn into supermen.
 

Amateur

Registered User
LOL....if your good enough you WONT do that and you would be able to cope with people doing it to you...i can (put my trumpet down)

and amateur your idea is great, but i question its practicality. most people cant take it when things are against them at 0-0...i can imagine people doing their nut if they lose a quick goal and are under constant pressure from a confident team....i mean surely its just another game mechanic to be exploited by people obsessed with winning.....like the messi runs etc.

could work a treat though

Like it or not, it is a reality of Football; the momentum changes.

My whole point is that Konami must give us complete control. Let's say that almost everything is decided by our actual skills as players, and your opponent is outplaying you fair and square -this- would mean that the momentum would be in your opponent's favor...

And there would be a lot of depth to it because the Team Confidence is the result of every Individual's Confidence Level. So it covers both Individual performances and Team performances.

When an Individual haves a "Low Confidence Level" some of his stats will go down: resulting in less off-the-ball movement, which in turn will make him harder to find on the pitch.

On the other hand, when an Individual haves a "High Confidence Level" some of his Stats will improve: resulting in more off-the-ball movement and effort.

That change in the Stats or in "off-the-ball movement" should be how the whole "momentum shifts" work.

* off-the-ball movement is very important in Football, because without good off-the-ball movement you don’t get good passing angles.

It would be a completely Unbiased Concept... everything would depend on our skills as players.

Let's have a scenario: Barcelona vs Chelsea, Essien is keeping a close mark on Leo Messi... and Essien is winning that "one-on-one" battle. Let's say Leo Messi tried to dribble past Essien but failed, and this has happened for about 3 consecutive times so far.

This would have a negative effect on Messi's Confidence Level, maybe Messi started the match with an 80% Confidence -and- after struggling against Essien his Confidence has gone down to 65%.

This would mean that some of Leo Messi's Stats will go down momentarily: maybe his Dribbling Stats will go down a bit, and he will also be harder to find on the pitch.

This would mean that for the coming PLAYS you should try playing through Iniesta, or through Xavi, or through Thierry Henry -until- Leo Messi recovers a healthy "confidence level".

And if you still play with Leo Messi, you could risk making it worst... this would encourage Collective Play and it would prevent the over-use of players like Leo Messi.


** How can Konami encourage Collective Play??

The whole point about the "Confidence Level" Concept is having some sort of control over the "momentum shifts" that occur throughout a game… but it would also be a completely new element of "Team Chemistry".

For example...

Let's take Barcelona FC: with Barcelona it wouldn’t be a wise move to have Leo Messi doing everything –because- this would mean that team-mates like Xavi would not see much of the ball. And if Xavi doesn’t get hold of the ball so that he can distribute play –this- would result with Xavi having a “Low Confidence Level”.

And if Xavi haves a Low Confidence Level –this- would affect Barcelona in a negative way. The Balance of the system would be lost for a given time, depending on how you get Xavi back into the game.

This would encourage collective play… let’s say someone is doing everything with Leo Messi, like they usually do Online. This would result in the Team loosing Confidence because Leo Messi is not passing the ball; there would be consequences for over-using players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.

Because Football is a Collective game, it isn’t only about the Leo Messis and the Robinhos and the Cristiano Ronaldos, etc, etc.

It shouldn’t be as one-dimensional as simply getting a bunch of “egos” together and having a star-studded Team… It shouldn’t be that simple, it should also depend on the actual balance and “team chemistry” of the Team: on how all those “egos” work together as a Team.


** The positives and negatives about “star-studded” Teams…

With teams like Barcelona FC you get world-class players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches, all this “superstars” and their high demands: Leo Messi wants to have the ball, Xavi wants to have the ball, Thierry Henry also likes to hold the ball, Samuel Eto’o also wants the ball, etc, etc.

If Messi started doing everything on his own –this- would create a conflict within the team. This is the price you pay when you play for a Big Team; you are no longer The Leader of the team, you have to share the spotlight with other “superstars”.

You wouldn’t need to worry about this in an Average Team with Average Individuals… But in Teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona and Man Utd this is a problem, because everyone is a “superstar” and you have to deal with their “egos” and make them work as a Team.

The Confidence Level Concept would give us more Realistic Differences between Average Clubs and Big Clubs.

With a Big Club like Real Madrid you get better players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches. On the other hand, with a more Average Club like Fiorentina we would get more average players, but as a positive we don’t have to deal with the high demands of “superstars”.

With bigger clubs we have more instability and conflicts within the team are more likely to happen. On the other hand with average clubs we have less quality, but as a positive we have a more consistent “team chemistry”.


** Bottom Line??

The "Confidence Level" Concept could:

* Provide a new layer of "team chemistry".
* Finally fix the AI-Dictated "momentum shifts" that are completely out of our hands.
* It would prevent the over-use of players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
* It would encourage Realistic/Collective Play.

I think that "momentum shifts" are a Reality of Football and should be a Part of PES. But Konami must give us more control over it. Here are a couple of scenarios:

* If Leo Messi keeps dribbling with the ball and playing by himself –this- could have a Negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level. Because this would mean that players like Xavi and Iniesta are not getting the ball, and this would create a conflict within the team –and- the conflict will have a negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level.

* If you score 2 quick goals -the- momentum would be in your favor, because your opponent will be completely bummed out.

* If you're dominating the possession –the- momentum should be in your favor.

* If Cristiano Ronaldo had an easy chance to score and failed to convert it, and his overall performance isn’t much better –this- would have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And consequently some of his Stats will go down momentarily: resulting in less off-the-ball runs and maybe a drop in his Dribbling Stats. Ronaldo could go missing for some parts of the game, and it would be up to you to get him back into the game.

* If you have a player like Juan Roman Riquelme and you don’t feed him the ball, and instead choose to play with other players –this- could have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And as a result Riquelme could become impatient and could simply stop running, effectively disappearing from the game for an unknown amount of minutes. Or until you start working on passing him the ball and improving his “confidence level”.


It should be something that we can manipulate to a certain extent, something that isn't random, a Concept that isn't completely out of our hands. Konami must give us more control over everything, including the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts".


PS - My apologies to anyone who might be offended by the long "rant".
 

hoober

Registered User
Like it or not, it is a reality of Football; the momentum changes.

My whole point is that Konami must give us complete control. Let's say that almost everything is decided by our actual skills as player, and your opponent is outplaying you fair and square -this- would mean that the momentum would be in your opponent's favor...

And on the contrary...

The whole Confidence Level that I mentioned could be used against the users who over-use players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.


** How can Konami encourage Collective Play??

The whole point about the "Confidence Level" Concept is having some sort of control over the "momentum shifts" that occur throughout a game… but it would also be a completely new element of "Team Chemistry".

For example...

Let's take Barcelona FC: with Barcelona it wouldn’t be a wise move to have Leo Messi doing everything –because- this would mean that team-mates like Xavi would not see much of the ball. And if Xavi doesn’t get hold of the ball so that he can distribute play –this- would result with Xavi having a “Low Confidence Level”.

And if Xavi haves a Low Confidence Level –this- would affect Barcelona in a negative way. The Balance of the system would be lost for a given time, depending on how you get Xavi back into the game.

This would encourage collective play… let’s say someone is doing everything with Leo Messi, like they usually do Online. This would result in the Team loosing Confidence because Leo Messi is not passing the ball; there would be consequences for over-using players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.

Because Football is a Collective game, it isn’t only about the Leo Messis and the Robinhos and the Cristiano Ronaldos, etc, etc.

It shouldn’t be as one-dimensional as simply getting a bunch of “egos” together and having a star-studded Team… It shouldn’t be that simple, it should also depend on the actual balance and “team chemistry” of the Team: on how all those “egos” work together as a Team.


** The positives and negatives about “star-studded” Teams…

With teams like Barcelona FC you get world-class players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches, all this “superstars” and their high demands: Leo Messi wants to have the ball, Xavi wants to have the ball, Thierry Henry also likes to hold the ball, Samuel Eto’o also wants the ball, etc, etc.

If Messi started doing everything on his own –this- would create a conflict within the team. This is the price you pay when you play for a Big Team; you are no longer The Leader of the team, you have to share the spotlight with other “superstars”.

You wouldn’t need to worry about this in an Average Team with Average Individuals… But in Teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona and Man Utd this is a problem, because everyone is a “superstar” and you have to deal with their “egos” and make them work as a Team.

The Confidence Level Concept would give us more Realistic Differences between Average Clubs and Big Clubs.

With a Big Club like Real Madrid you get better players, but as part of the package you also get more headaches. On the other hand, with a more Average Club like Fiorentina we would get more average players, but as a positive we don’t have to deal with the high demands of “superstars”.

With bigger clubs we have more instability and conflicts within the team are more likely to happen. On the other hand with average clubs we have less quality, but as a positive we have a more consistent “team chemistry”.


** Bottom Line??

The "Confidence Level" Concept would:

* Provide a new layer of "team chemistry".
* Finally fix the AI-Dictated "momentum shifts" that are completely out of our hands.
* It would prevent the over-use of players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo.
* It would encourage Realistic/Collective Play.

I think that "momentum shifts" are a Reality of Football and should be a Part of PES. But Konami must give us more control over it. Here are a couple of scenarios:

* If Leo Messi keeps dribbling with the ball and playing by himself –this- could have a Negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level. Because this would mean that players like Xavi and Iniesta are not getting the ball, and this would create a conflict within the team –and- the conflict will have a negative effect on the Team’s Confidence Level.

* If you score 2 quick goals -the- momentum would be in your favor, because your opponent will be completely bummed out.

* If you're dominating the possession –the- momentum should be in your favor.

* If Cristiano Ronaldo had an easy chance to score and failed to convert it, and his overall performance isn’t much better –this- would have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And consequently some of his Stats will go down momentarily: resulting in less off-the-ball runs and maybe a drop in his Dribbling Stats. Ronaldo could go missing for some parts of the game, and it would be up to you to get him back into the game.

* If you have a player like Juan Roman Riquelme and you don’t feed him the ball, and instead choose to play with other players –this- could have a negative effect on his “confidence level”. And as a result Riquelme could become impatient and could simply stop running, effectively disappearing from the game for an unknown amount of minutes. Or until you start working on passing him the ball and improving his “confidence level”.


It should be something that we can manipulate to a certain extent, something that isn't random, a Concept that isn't completely out of our hands. Konami must give us more control over everything, including the AI-Controlled "momentum shifts".

Well said. Couldn't agree anymore. This will give more challenge especially for people who have acquired all the best players in ML. Something for them to think about in acquiring all the best players.
 

Amateur

Registered User
Well said. Couldn't agree anymore. This will give more challenge especially for people who have acquired all the best players in ML. Something for them to think about in acquiring all the best players.

I appreciate that... It would make things more challenging and realistic. Pro Evo gets a bit boring and repetitive when you realize that the whole AI-Cheating is out of your hands.

The Confidence Level Concept would give us some control over the AI-Dictated "Momentum Shifts" -plus- it would also add a whole new layer of "Team Chemistry".

For example...

* You play Sergio Aguero as Defensive Midfielder, and this would have a negative effect on his Confidence Level.

* You play Riquelme as a Winger, and this will have a negative effect on his Confidence Level.

* If your Defensive Midfielder is having a bad game and is Low on Confidence... This will have a negative effect on the TEAM. Because Attacking Midfielders and Forwards won't see much of the ball.

The Confidence Level Concept would establish some important fundamentals. It would always be better to play to your player's strengths.

And it would also encourage collective play, as well as a Realistic Balance in the team. It wouldn't be about having Attacking players like Leo Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robinho, Kaka, etc, etc...

You would also need Defensive Players to feed them the ball, hard-working midfielders like Mascherano and Ambrosini.

Because let's say that we have a team with: Leo Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Robinho, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Fernando Torres... None of this players likes to defend -and- if any of them are reduced to defending; their "Confidence Level" will go down.

So you would need a Realistic Balance in your Team: hard-working players like Mascherano with naturally gifted players like Leo Messi. This would work best for all parts, because Mascherano will not mind being reduced to Defensive Duties -and- Leo Messi will have more freedom to do what he likes to do.

And also...

It would encourage Collective Play, because over-using players like Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo would come at a price. It could have a negative effect on your team-mates Confidence.

Pro Evolution 2009 flaws??

* I can play Sergio Aguero as a Defensive Midfielder without problems... and he is as good as any Defensive Midfielder. Fast and Agile players always make good Defensive Midfielders, this is a huge flaw of PES09.

* You can do just about anything with Leo Messi -and- it doesn't seems to affect any of his team-mates: Xavi, Iniesta, Thierry Henry, Samuel Eto'o... which is completely Unrealistic.

I think the Confidence Level Concept that I've mentioned, I think it would fix some of those flaws. And in my opinion it would be a massive improvement.
 

Desijut

Registered User
i play football at u16 level and the momentum thing applies in this as well!!!

We were dominating a game, winning 1 - 0, looking like a stroll to victory when the other team scored a fluky goal, it boosted their morale considerably, the they were dominating, in fact, our team couldn't get the ball, let alone score.

Luckily we won as we managed to get a 2nd and 3rd until they pulled one back and we finished it off 4 - 2

EDIT: soz for double post

Another eg is England League yesterday - man u v spurs

Silly ref decision gives man u a goal which gave them the impetous and confidence to get another 4 and win

ooo and they really need mental attributes for off the ball and BAL affecting what runs they make off the ball or at corner kicks, not all players move the same, some stay static in one place and wait for the ball to come to them, making them less effective than someone who makes a run affecting your choice of "players to go up"
 
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shaun7

Registered User
I can play Sergio Aguero as a Defensive Midfielder without problems... and he is as good as any Defensive Midfielder. Fast and Agile players always make good Defensive Midfielders, this is a huge flaw of PES09.
That really annoys me. This is the most annoying thing in pes. Speed is overrated. I need to see a more defensive game and the defence and tackling abilities need to be more active in pes.
 

Amateur

Registered User
That really annoys me. This is the most annoying thing in pes. Speed is overrated. I need to see a more defensive game and the defence and tackling abilities need to be more active in pes.

This has always been a flaw of PES... if you look closely, PES doesn't have STATS for "Marking" or "Tackling" -and- Special Abilities do not work very well, because there's no accuracy to them.

The game needs more Defensive Stats and more Stats for the off-the-ball movement. Tactical Movement is extremely important in Football, and I find it disappointing that there are no STATS for off-the-ball movement.

They should also include different types of off-the-ball movement, not everyone haves the same off-the-ball tendencies.

This also really annoys me, because I was expecting that this flaws would be fixed with Next Gen Consoles... Instead: Konami made the game worst and actually removed substance from the game.

Pro Evolution 2010 could really be make or break. If 2010 is another major disappointment, I cannot see myself buying PES 2011.

I think I will switch to FIFA if Pro Evo 2010 is another disappointment... there's just no point in supporting a sold-out franchise.
 

shaun7

Registered User
I agree on stats. That's what defines a football game. But the stats, need to be recognized more by the game.
 

Du 1337

Registered User
I think it is not only a bad thing that pes is scripted. Like some say: it makes the difference with fifa.
I agree with the 'feeling' u get when the CPU 'decides' to score... That's funny and almost impossible to escape from. But this moment usually pops up when u didn't finish the chances u got urself during the game, so it's some sort of chainreaction.
 

Amateur

Registered User
I think it is not only a bad thing that pes is scripted. Like some say: it makes the difference with fifa.
I agree with the 'feeling' u get when the CPU 'decides' to score... That's funny and almost impossible to escape from. But this moment usually pops up when u didn't finish the chances u got urself during the game, so it's some sort of chainreaction.

A few years back I would've said the same thing...

But honestly, in my opinion the "Scripting" is a Key LIMITING factor in the PES series. Konami must gives us control over the "momentum shifts". It cannot be something that the AI-Decides on its own.

Many fans have grown past that, and Konami must understand that we expect better. I don't like playing against human-Players, just so the COM decides who will win, like it usually happens. Pro Evolution should be less COM -and- more about our actual skills as players.
 
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