shit happens
is the AI cheating?
- Thread starter skickahit10
- Start date
shit happens
100% agree with you,pes has had scripting issues for years!
ThePesTuts
Registered User
Delete the patch and A.i Doesn't cheat 1/2 as much.
without the patch :dribbling. Human controlled players can dribbling amazing with people like levezzi, but it is not super easy to beat opponent overpowerful or unrealistic.
with the patch: patch the dribbling animation in seem to have been toned down severely , much of the dribbling animation were taken out to tone down its power. but yet. the CPU seem to all have super dribbling intelligence in how they dribble, far too overpowered first step/ burst. you know that one where its 1-1 showdown, your defender backing up, and cpu with dribbling precision 66, dribbling speed 72, ball control 72, makes a burst move right by you almost at the speed of messi in good form, right by your defender who's rating is 84, defense 83, responsiveness 84. this didn't happen in before the patch.
go back into demo 1 now and test out all the things i'm mentioning.
without the patch : - notice: the CPU doesn't seem overpowered with dribbling, instead of mid level opponents with dribbling speed and precision on 73 giving you hell to defend, only people like robben do it without the patch.
without the patch - defending in 1-1 feels ironically more tight. you feel more a bigger difference when controlling a great defender as oposed to bad one
without patch The A.i movement when link up play on the CPU opponent , feels more realistically reflective of who they are.
with the patch: CPU oppoent teams with average ratings of 66 can play link up almost barcalona like, rarely misplacing passes, and almost having vision far beyond them, esp in ping pong one -twos, near the top of the box.
without the patch : the shooting, hmm, you can actually aim it wherever you want in demo 1, the shots that go array seem much more varied in demo 1 than in retail also. in retail. shots seem to easy with all shooters, esp volleys, it seems anyone can volley great in retail.
with patch: scripting , retail seems to have much much more scripting and CPU cheats.
i.e, on corners, your defender will head the ball away, but it will usually fall right to a opponent player who is conveniently positioned right exactly where he needs to be, and will usually always not think twice before he aims to volley it.
with patch : keepers, I don't think keepers have been improved upon reflection now. in retail, it seems there way of improving the keepers is a facade. what they actually seemed to have done is , remove the ability of you to manually aim and shoot your shot, and instead, made it so assisted. but thats not the end. it seems that in effort to make it look as if the keepers are improved, they've merely set the game so that most of your shots are programmed to go straight directly at the keeper, thus making him look improved. where as demo 1, most of those bottom corner shots you aimed, actually went there, and resulted in a goal. demo 1 keepers had issues. but retail is a joke at times seing my keeper not react to ball right by him, or have him run out to midfield to or sidelines to try and clear a ball idiotically. I try to ignore it, but it does ruin that moment when your all into the game and you see this.
without the patch - play styles seemed to vary in how teams attacked more, in retail, them seem to mostly sit back, but leave 2 strikers way at midfield, so once they get the ball, they pass it and counter, storming down field. only way to negate this is to hold up play. it make sense, but most teams play this exact way. play wihout patch seems more end to end, but still much more midfield battles. instead of CPU gets ball, and tries emeidately to score, even though they only have one player forward. wihout patch, on some matches, they'res actually no shots taken sometime yet even at the 14'th minute passed.
With patch - Crossing.
but they made far to assisted or constrained, taken away the control and error, just as with shooting. with the patch you can be right at the corner of the box, HOLD down cross on maximum power, and it the ball will not act accordingly and go into the stands, instead it almost seems to have a default range in where crosses will be placed, regarless of power , or aiming. which sucks ass.
difficulty
with the patch - in patch pes, proffessional is too easy, but still has that CPU scriping to some extent, and also all the other flaws ive mentioend, but it seems to the most realistic. top player has all the CPU opponent issues i mentioned, and superstar , is pretty much, every team is barcalona, shit teams sit back and counter (which is real), but when they are at the top of the your box, they play almost amazing perfect 1-2s and triagles while your defenders seem reacting 1 second later. they don't make errand passes at all. when nothing is open, instead of holding possession, they bomb the ball forward for a set up header, which you usually can win, but it shows there lack of creativity and realism
With patch : - speed seems to be irellevent when it comes to top speed dribbling away from a defender. speed only matter in accelaration and speed of turning, but not top speed when trying to outrun someone much slower than you in a straight line.
go into training , take a player top speed 90. set training settings so that its only 2 vs 2. then, take your dribbler, and make the defender fallow you all the way deep in your half. make sure its a defender with speed on like 73 or around there. now with you and him both in your half. try to beat him down the field for a goal on net.
2 things you'll notice. its nearly impossible to simply speed using no moves, even though your 20+ faster. yes moves mean something, but you should be able to simply burn him since he has no help. what happens is he'll bum and bump you till you stumble and lose the ball
the other thing you can do, is let him have the ball in your half, but then slide tackle him so he falls, take the ball away from him, have in possession and move slight ahead of him towards your goal, as he gets up, try to run away from him all the way to your goal, he'll catch you almost 100 percent of the time. if this is not a catch up bug, I don't know what is. its a catch up bug, just cleveryly programmed.
without the patch: levezzi can really run by defenders who lack pace . pace difference of only 10 mean much more in demo 1 than in retail, they mean almost nothing.
I made a player with dribblin acc 99, dribbling speed 99, and ball control 99, and top speed 99, and couldn't outrun him at 75 speed. yes, i use tripple tap srint, and R1 and R2 together, don't take my word, try it.
all in all,without the patch seems more realistic. fun, and better. keepers need to be stat edited increased, and also slight possible stat increase to defending stats, maybe teamwork +9 and defense +6. i dunno, I'm probably going to a do a universal stat edit. would be awesome if we got maybe a handful of people on this each person does a a few teams, or league etc. since now we can actually import team by team it'll work. also, this doesn't affect OF, DLC or squad updates, so long as you use the SQUAD update release as a base.
.
konami somewhat messed up again. but i'm optimistic, pre patch shows me, they can, and actually have the ability to make an amazing game, its just maybe just a matter of what they choose to go forward with as final product being the problem.
without the patch :dribbling. Human controlled players can dribbling amazing with people like levezzi, but it is not super easy to beat opponent overpowerful or unrealistic.
with the patch: patch the dribbling animation in seem to have been toned down severely , much of the dribbling animation were taken out to tone down its power. but yet. the CPU seem to all have super dribbling intelligence in how they dribble, far too overpowered first step/ burst. you know that one where its 1-1 showdown, your defender backing up, and cpu with dribbling precision 66, dribbling speed 72, ball control 72, makes a burst move right by you almost at the speed of messi in good form, right by your defender who's rating is 84, defense 83, responsiveness 84. this didn't happen in before the patch.
go back into demo 1 now and test out all the things i'm mentioning.
without the patch : - notice: the CPU doesn't seem overpowered with dribbling, instead of mid level opponents with dribbling speed and precision on 73 giving you hell to defend, only people like robben do it without the patch.
without the patch - defending in 1-1 feels ironically more tight. you feel more a bigger difference when controlling a great defender as oposed to bad one
without patch The A.i movement when link up play on the CPU opponent , feels more realistically reflective of who they are.
with the patch: CPU oppoent teams with average ratings of 66 can play link up almost barcalona like, rarely misplacing passes, and almost having vision far beyond them, esp in ping pong one -twos, near the top of the box.
without the patch : the shooting, hmm, you can actually aim it wherever you want in demo 1, the shots that go array seem much more varied in demo 1 than in retail also. in retail. shots seem to easy with all shooters, esp volleys, it seems anyone can volley great in retail.
with patch: scripting , retail seems to have much much more scripting and CPU cheats.
i.e, on corners, your defender will head the ball away, but it will usually fall right to a opponent player who is conveniently positioned right exactly where he needs to be, and will usually always not think twice before he aims to volley it.
with patch : keepers, I don't think keepers have been improved upon reflection now. in retail, it seems there way of improving the keepers is a facade. what they actually seemed to have done is , remove the ability of you to manually aim and shoot your shot, and instead, made it so assisted. but thats not the end. it seems that in effort to make it look as if the keepers are improved, they've merely set the game so that most of your shots are programmed to go straight directly at the keeper, thus making him look improved. where as demo 1, most of those bottom corner shots you aimed, actually went there, and resulted in a goal. demo 1 keepers had issues. but retail is a joke at times seing my keeper not react to ball right by him, or have him run out to midfield to or sidelines to try and clear a ball idiotically. I try to ignore it, but it does ruin that moment when your all into the game and you see this.
without the patch - play styles seemed to vary in how teams attacked more, in retail, them seem to mostly sit back, but leave 2 strikers way at midfield, so once they get the ball, they pass it and counter, storming down field. only way to negate this is to hold up play. it make sense, but most teams play this exact way. play wihout patch seems more end to end, but still much more midfield battles. instead of CPU gets ball, and tries emeidately to score, even though they only have one player forward. wihout patch, on some matches, they'res actually no shots taken sometime yet even at the 14'th minute passed.
With patch - Crossing.
but they made far to assisted or constrained, taken away the control and error, just as with shooting. with the patch you can be right at the corner of the box, HOLD down cross on maximum power, and it the ball will not act accordingly and go into the stands, instead it almost seems to have a default range in where crosses will be placed, regarless of power , or aiming. which sucks ass.
difficulty
with the patch - in patch pes, proffessional is too easy, but still has that CPU scriping to some extent, and also all the other flaws ive mentioend, but it seems to the most realistic. top player has all the CPU opponent issues i mentioned, and superstar , is pretty much, every team is barcalona, shit teams sit back and counter (which is real), but when they are at the top of the your box, they play almost amazing perfect 1-2s and triagles while your defenders seem reacting 1 second later. they don't make errand passes at all. when nothing is open, instead of holding possession, they bomb the ball forward for a set up header, which you usually can win, but it shows there lack of creativity and realism
With patch : - speed seems to be irellevent when it comes to top speed dribbling away from a defender. speed only matter in accelaration and speed of turning, but not top speed when trying to outrun someone much slower than you in a straight line.
go into training , take a player top speed 90. set training settings so that its only 2 vs 2. then, take your dribbler, and make the defender fallow you all the way deep in your half. make sure its a defender with speed on like 73 or around there. now with you and him both in your half. try to beat him down the field for a goal on net.
2 things you'll notice. its nearly impossible to simply speed using no moves, even though your 20+ faster. yes moves mean something, but you should be able to simply burn him since he has no help. what happens is he'll bum and bump you till you stumble and lose the ball
the other thing you can do, is let him have the ball in your half, but then slide tackle him so he falls, take the ball away from him, have in possession and move slight ahead of him towards your goal, as he gets up, try to run away from him all the way to your goal, he'll catch you almost 100 percent of the time. if this is not a catch up bug, I don't know what is. its a catch up bug, just cleveryly programmed.
without the patch: levezzi can really run by defenders who lack pace . pace difference of only 10 mean much more in demo 1 than in retail, they mean almost nothing.
I made a player with dribblin acc 99, dribbling speed 99, and ball control 99, and top speed 99, and couldn't outrun him at 75 speed. yes, i use tripple tap srint, and R1 and R2 together, don't take my word, try it.
all in all,without the patch seems more realistic. fun, and better. keepers need to be stat edited increased, and also slight possible stat increase to defending stats, maybe teamwork +9 and defense +6. i dunno, I'm probably going to a do a universal stat edit. would be awesome if we got maybe a handful of people on this each person does a a few teams, or league etc. since now we can actually import team by team it'll work. also, this doesn't affect OF, DLC or squad updates, so long as you use the SQUAD update release as a base.
.
konami somewhat messed up again. but i'm optimistic, pre patch shows me, they can, and actually have the ability to make an amazing game, its just maybe just a matter of what they choose to go forward with as final product being the problem.
Ali
It is happening again
The thing is, I think this is by far the worst it's ever been!
It always makes me laugh when I hear these conspiracy theories about PES AI. As if Konami would even dedicate the time to do such things. They can't even get th rosters up to date! I had a friend that was adamant that PES decides the winner of the game before the game has kicked off. Strangely he only voiced this theory whenever he was getting beat.
Then theres those that say "as if that player could score from that distance"..."thats unrealistic!" etc again just because they are losing.
I bet when the AI makes a mistake due to a glitch you'd gladly take the open net and score, yet when they do it its all a big fix and was pre-programmed in a canny attempt to make you hate the game stop you buying the series. Think about it, even if Konami could implement such AI (which I'll stress again THEY CAN'T) why would they do it? They want you to enjoy the game, recommend it and buy the sequels.
Seriously learn to accept losing or set the difficulty down. You can't always be Charlie Sheen.
Then theres those that say "as if that player could score from that distance"..."thats unrealistic!" etc again just because they are losing.
I bet when the AI makes a mistake due to a glitch you'd gladly take the open net and score, yet when they do it its all a big fix and was pre-programmed in a canny attempt to make you hate the game stop you buying the series. Think about it, even if Konami could implement such AI (which I'll stress again THEY CAN'T) why would they do it? They want you to enjoy the game, recommend it and buy the sequels.
Seriously learn to accept losing or set the difficulty down. You can't always be Charlie Sheen.
Just stop. And drop the internet toughguy schtick while you're at it. The Konami devs have even stated there's scripting in the game, put there in order to make the gameplay more challenging.
Hey, you've never played FIFA apparently and watched the scripted madness unfold as the CPU launches into god mode. Same goes for EA's NHL series. It's not new or impossible or some big secret bro. Anyone who has spent any time playing these sports games knows about the momentum scripting that today's game devs are programming into them. Been going on for years now.
Konami do some silly things that really p the consumer off, but I think they even they know that the gamer wants to be entertained. I just dont see the gain on their behalf to make it worthwhile programming into the game.
If you're losing or feeling cheated what happens when you play it a notch easier (I've not played it below Pro)?
And its not a tough guy schtick its a voice of logic as I haven't experienced any of this and have seen people get frustrated and point out everything they don't like as a fault or a fix "aww look thats a free kick (when it clearly was).....no way thats not a red card (last man slide tackle)" etc. A lot of the evidence of this cheating seems to occur when the player is getting wound up and so everything becomes a cheat in their eyes.
PES11 was far too easy so maybe its a matter of perception; I see the AI's clinical finishing and mazy dribbling as a challenge regardless of how the inner workings of the game achieves these ends.
Its probably a matter of semantics, to me the term "cheat" doesn't describe what the AI is doing, as it suggests it makes a decision to score which must mean your control must be de-activated as you'd have to be powerless to do anything for this cheat to succeed. I see it more that the AI has been improved so if the AI needs a goal at 1 nil down they'll attack more aggressively.
AI is not cheating, but rather that sometimes it applies insane pressure and scores a bit too often if it gets a chance. I learned to defend well though, but still feels crazy at times. In other words it is possible not to get a goal when you know that the AI is on drugs. does this count as not cheating? 
The question here is what is "cheating"? In FIFA, the CPU cheats. The god mode AI kicks in and players suddenly become near unstoppable to stop. Their agility, shot accuracy, heading and other skill attributes suddenly increase, making it ridiculously difficult to stop them from moving down the pitch at will and either scoring or and getting a series of shots off.
Is that what's happening in PES? That's the question. In FIFA, the CPU doesn't ever change formations or tactics, even when down late -- that sort of advanced programming isn't in the game. The EA devs simply programmed the game to shift into god mode. But CPU teams in PES shift formations and shift tactics. Some of you are saying that's what the "cheating" in PES actually is -- merely a shift in CPU tactics. I don't agree. I see things like my CPU-controlled defenders suddenly RUNNING AWAY from attacking players, or my GK making some lame, weak effort to go after the ball, or even inexplicably punching it directly towards CPU players. IMO, the cheat programming in PES is there, it's just programmed differently than EA programmed theirs.
Is that what's happening in PES? That's the question. In FIFA, the CPU doesn't ever change formations or tactics, even when down late -- that sort of advanced programming isn't in the game. The EA devs simply programmed the game to shift into god mode. But CPU teams in PES shift formations and shift tactics. Some of you are saying that's what the "cheating" in PES actually is -- merely a shift in CPU tactics. I don't agree. I see things like my CPU-controlled defenders suddenly RUNNING AWAY from attacking players, or my GK making some lame, weak effort to go after the ball, or even inexplicably punching it directly towards CPU players. IMO, the cheat programming in PES is there, it's just programmed differently than EA programmed theirs.
Dragonfly
Waiting....
The CPU (on FIFA) always changes formation if it's losing late on, or even drawing at home. It's usually the same formation (3-4-3), though. It also changes tactics, usually becoming more direct, which it understandable. This makes it predictable and easy to counter - just switch your formation to 4-3-3 or 4-5-1, to take advantage of the CPU defence's lack of width.
You're right about the "god mode", though. Brentford FC defenders suddenly turn into Messi is a joke. However, this is often the case right from kick-off, depending on what level you're playing, of course.
I was hoping to get PES when the price dropped, but people's reviews are putting me off. It seems they might have even ruined the greatest mode in football gaming history - Master League. I really hope not.
Really? I haven't noticed. And I've been playing exhibition matches and switching sides to the CPU team to see if it ever changes. I've been having this discussion with some other offline FIFA players, and they're all complaining about the same thing -- they never see the CPU change formations, only ramp up into god mode.
Dragonfly
Waiting....
I play career mode. I'd be surprised if this is the case, but perhaps the CPU plays differently in exhibition matches? I've notice the change in formation when looking at the radar. I can see that, if the CPU sarted the game with a back four, and it's losing with about ten minutes to go, the defence becomes a back three.
S-D-P
Registered User
Like any pes before 2012 there is an element of scripting when playing ML offline which can be frustrating when it goes against you. The AI is excellent overall and its great at finding holes in your tactics. At times the game really does seem desperate to fuck you over, I have times where almost every rebound somehow finds its way back to the AI and the game of course has balancing acts to help the AI.
Overall though very happy, superstar is more challenging than any football game before yet its still rewarding.
As for fifa EA dont give a fuck about offline play and creating team individuality, since fifa 2008 EA have gone backwards in this respect. FIFA 12 offline is one of the most tedious gameplay experiences I have ever had, even playing on full manual could not save it I just dont feel like I'm part of a football match. I loved fifa 2008 offline but since then I feel the fifa series has regressed despite all the bum love from many media outlets.
Overall though very happy, superstar is more challenging than any football game before yet its still rewarding.
As for fifa EA dont give a fuck about offline play and creating team individuality, since fifa 2008 EA have gone backwards in this respect. FIFA 12 offline is one of the most tedious gameplay experiences I have ever had, even playing on full manual could not save it I just dont feel like I'm part of a football match. I loved fifa 2008 offline but since then I feel the fifa series has regressed despite all the bum love from many media outlets.
fifa 12 career mode is BEAST. Pes ruined this year making training harder, player improvement weird, form and stamina weird and they've just made it worse. even the cutscenes bore me. career mode has taken a hugeuplift as now you can scout for youngsters in different countries and leagues from ages 13 to 21. you can also see the potential if you play them to the best of their ability. AND player develoment has been fixed. players also say different things to you unlike pes where people would say 'last match you completely played me out of position when you know i hate having that done to me' whilst on fifa different players say it diffenrently like if they have minds of their own like anelka might say'i might look for another club if you play me at amf'.
One thing that annoys me similar to pes is that the form and stamina is stupid and he system doesn't work and for some reason i have to go thorugh a weird process to sign or renew contracts so it not on par with pes at the moment
One thing that annoys me similar to pes is that the form and stamina is stupid and he system doesn't work and for some reason i have to go thorugh a weird process to sign or renew contracts so it not on par with pes at the moment
the growth this year is way more realistic than last year's ml where people improve until a certain age regardless of peformances. Say in real life a player like klose scored 30 goals a season his rating should go up however in ml his rating will go down because of his age but in football life it is more realistic as it matters about training and peformances like in real life. distin in my ml is 85 now improving because he has a high average rating per match and it's the same. Also youngsters atlast can dcrease if they play under their expectations and can't reach their potential whilst last it like 'if your under 23 and you play a match your rating will increase' and this year it's like 'a good peformance and your overall will improve but if you play bad you won't improve or you'lll improve slowly'
I dont think the Ai is cheating a lot, they just play very good at times. Maybe they cheat on higher levels like superstar, i dont now. most of the time i play on professional, with strong teams on topplayer and that seems ok for me. Most of the goals i received are explainable and often my fault. Sometimes they score and you just couldnt defend but that is was happen in the real game too.
You may like to take a look at some of my full games i recorded. I played CL with Benfica on professional (3 Full Games are online - 6 halfes to watch) and dont think there is a lot of cheating from the AI.
Eg. my first Game with Benfica vs Real and i managed to win it 2-1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiuUfkHgRQ
You may like to take a look at some of my full games i recorded. I played CL with Benfica on professional (3 Full Games are online - 6 halfes to watch) and dont think there is a lot of cheating from the AI.
Eg. my first Game with Benfica vs Real and i managed to win it 2-1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkiuUfkHgRQ
Ali
It is happening again
No no.... it cheats.... believe me. When you can spot a goal coming before they even cross the half way line, it's cheating.. not good play.