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Screenshots, Impact Engines, Animations, Who gives a...

shaun7

Registered User
^Lol it is true, however, it's hard to imagine that fifa 12 will be revolutionary because it's EA and they will never admit that their game is broken and is all based around physical attributes with close to no individuality.

But I'll take it back and try to wait for both demos and then decide.
 

Tech_Skill

Registered User
^Lol it is true, however, it's hard to imagine that fifa 12 will be revolutionary because it's EA and they will never admit that their game is broken and is all based around physical attributes with close to no individuality.

But I'll take it back and try to wait for both demos and then decide.

Fifa is fucked beyond repair, and I hope that rutter and co totally prove me wrong and bring out a cracking game, but its unlikely, this footballing community has changed so much, here is the timeline

2007- PES 6: Greatest game ever? PES 2008 on the next gen consoles is going to be unbelieveable

-2008- PES is totally unplayable, we are going to fifa.

-2009- Yup, just like we have been saying for a year, fifa is by far the best game, they can really build on this.

2010: How the fuck can two opposing companies with separate million dollar budgets drop two turds within a single week?

2011: Ohhh for fuck sake, just give us a decent fucking game for one year.....anybody....please....pretty fucking please, we aint had a decent game of footy since high school.
 

Dragonfly

Waiting....
^Lol it is true, however, it's hard to imagine that fifa 12 will be revolutionary because it's EA and they will never admit that their game is broken and is all based around physical attributes with close to no individuality.

I've always wondered, but never asked, what do people mean by individuality?
 

Tech_Skill

Registered User
I've always wondered, but never asked, what do people mean by individuality?

Long story short. Its well documented that fifa's lastability (new word!) is equivalent to that of a terminally ill inmate on deathrow.... in the state of texas.....with George Bush Jr deciding his fate.

This is because all the fucking players are the same but for a few physical differences.

Messi at CB is just as good in that position as Titus Bramble............Hold on...... actually, maybe ea have got it right after all.
 

Hunter

BELIEVE
Long story short. Its well documented that fifa's lastability (new word!) is equivalent to that of a terminally ill inmate on deathrow.... in the state of texas.....with George Bush Jr deciding his fate.

This is because all the fucking players are the same but for a few physical differences.

Messi at CB is just as good in that position as Titus Bramble............Hold on...... actually, maybe ea have got it right after all.

Definitely.

That's one of my loves for PES, the individuality each player had. As soon as say Ronaldo received the ball, you knew it was him, from the unique physique, to the tip-toe running and dribbling, it was all very credible. Whenever I'd play as Manchester United a few years ago, I'd genuinely mimic the player's real life style because Konami made us feel as though we could. I'd do more than just dribble if Ronnie had the ball, I'd endlessly perform stepovers, play darted passes with Scholes, running in circles with Giggs because his right foot is too weak etc. You really felt like each player had very unique and real characteristics from their style of play, to their looks. Of course this is still very relevant in PES games today, it's just that once all of the styles of play come together to form the complete gameplay, it sort of breaks down a little.
 

Lörd TH

Registered User
This year more than ever, im finding it difficult to get interested in this whole football game malarky. Whether you like fifa or pes, both companies have done a downright DISGRACEFUL job on the new hardware, no wonder people are still fucking with PES 6 options files, they ought to be ashamed of themselves, you dont play Call of Duty Modern warfare and then think about playing Call of duty on PS1 instead cos half the shit that made the game good in the 1st place is missing.

And after all this, Konami think that Im going to get excited, cos they showed a pic of robinho as a crack cocaine addict?

As for fifa's impact engine, I dont give a shit if the physics are so realistic.. John Terry's balls swing when he's hitting his team-mates wife from behind....who gives a rats ass about that, sort out the fucking bugs, sort out the scripted gameplay, the 50 1 on 1's per game, add some goal variety and some indivdiuality.....fuck sake.

That's utter bollocks, mainly on FIFAs front.
 

Tech_Skill

Registered User
That's utter bollocks, mainly on FIFAs front.

Dude it was so bad they couldnt even get the WEATHER right in fifa, what kind of shit is that? when you play GTA london on PS1, does it rain all the fucking time because your in london????

NO.

Compare this to that peak of football simulations, that mirror image of real life also known as fifa 10, where its never sunny in england and every game is played in overcast/rainly conditions.......I mean, Fucks sake, fucking Chris Kamara's international football on Commodore 64 got that shit right....and that was when games were on fucking cassette tape format!
 

Lörd TH

Registered User
Alright mate chill out, it's only a game at the end of the day!


Also, compare Fifa on the ps1/2 to that of the PS3/360 versions you'll see a hell of a lot improvment over the recent years.
 

Amateur

Registered User
I don't think it's too little too late. I think we need to go into each new PES with a fresh frame of mind.

With regards to your tv analogy (is it 24 by any chance?), it's not like Konami are trying to squeeze every bit of money out. The very nature of sports games is that there's gonna be a new one released every year. It's not like they get to a point where we think that this is the last ever PES, so we prepare ourselves for the end, only to be told that actually, there will be a new one next year.

I get what you're saying and it is a fair point, but I'm not necessarily having a go at the yearly releases. I'm just saying that the transition or evolution, PES5, PES6, PES08, PES09, PES10, PES11, is too little too late.

I mean, with PES08 and PES09 Konami actually regressed, PES09 and PES10 are so very similar; I don't think people would have complained that much if PES11 had been PES08, but when you get PES11 in year 2011 it feels like the company is squeezing every bit of money they can out of the series.

I mean, what excuse do they have for PES08? The 2K Series is also released on a yearly basis, and as far as I know they have never released shit games like PES08 and PES09.

That's all I'm saying. What PES11 does, I already experienced something very similar with FIFA09, FIFA10, and PES5. On the other hand, when I first played PES5, I had not experienced anything like that. Long story short, PES08 and PES09 were not necessary at all in my opinion, Konami took advantage of their reputation and profited from unfinished and unplayable video games, hence the analogy.

Also, compare Fifa on the ps1/2 to that of the PS3/360 versions you'll see a hell of a lot improvment over the recent years.

I think FIFA has always been shit but I agree with that statement, you could see a great deal of difference between FIFA07 on the PS2 and FIFA08 on the PS3.
 

shaun7

Registered User
You can see alot of difference in Fifa from ps1 to ps3. WHY?
2 reasons only

1. Fifa on ps1 was the worst ever so any kind of difference would matter
2. Fifa on ps3 FOCUSED ON GLOSSING UP THE BROKEN PARTS OF THE GAMEPLAY AND FOCUSING ON EVERYTHING THAT IS BASED AROUND THE VISUALS so that when you're playing you're like wow this is realistic, but when you analyse it, it's still broken.

In short story, neither pes nor fifa EVOLVED. It's time for a change now, seriously.
 

OCKRASS

Registered User
Most honest thread i have read in a looong time.

I am also very happy to see Amateur making some really solid points in some short and very readable reply.

I wanted to elaborate on what Tech said about 2K Sports creating a footie game.

EA had NBA Live for a couple years which had the basketball gaming in a headlock until 2K came along and kicked their buts with NBA 2K. Maybe, just maybe they would create a better game than what we are seeing today.

Honestly, It appears that EA is now doing the same thing to Konami.

However, regardless of who is selling more....I agree with the masses here that both titles are garbage.

If you had asked me 5yrs ago on how PES would be today, I honestly would have answered ...with real to life actual players and mind blowing game play.

However, Pes today is worst than what it was on PS2...when comparing technological advances and console power.

I was optimistic a couple years back, but who am i fooling. Konami/Seabass have no fuckin' clue on where to go with this series. I believe PES is dead.

I am now more interested in the game that TECH will be producing in the coming year..... I already love the commentary. where do i sign up? ....:w00t
 

Ali

It is happening again
You wouldn't be speaking about that TV show Lost by any chance?

Personally I didn't even get caught for 1 episode but I remember everyone that did watch it tell me how they felt used and abused after like season 99. :D

I did get caught for V though recently, which was cancelled. :no:

It can't be Lost, the show he was talking about got extented, Lost never got extended. Oh, I liked the ending btw :)

I get what you're saying and it is a fair point, but I'm not necessarily having a go at the yearly releases. I'm just saying that the transition or evolution, PES5, PES6, PES08, PES09, PES10, PES11, is too little too late.

I mean, with PES08 and PES09 Konami actually regressed, PES09 and PES10 are so very similar; I don't think people would have complained that much if PES11 had been PES08, but when you get PES11 in year 2011 it feels like the company is squeezing every bit of money they can out of the series.

I mean, what excuse do they have for PES08? The 2K Series is also released on a yearly basis, and as far as I know they have never released shit games like PES08 and PES09.

That's all I'm saying. What PES11 does, I already experienced something very similar with FIFA09, FIFA10, and PES5. On the other hand, when I first played PES5, I had not experienced anything like that. Long story short, PES08 and PES09 were not necessary at all in my opinion, Konami took advantage of their reputation and profited from unfinished and unplayable video games, hence the analogy.



I think FIFA has always been shit but I agree with that statement, you could see a great deal of difference between FIFA07 on the PS2 and FIFA08 on the PS3.

I think you also have to look at who makes these games. EA Sports, and 2K Sports are both sports specific areas of the companies..... whereas Konami.... is just Konami. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do Konami even make any other sports games?
Some of the chaps that make PES are probably the same people that develop other non-sport Konami games, maybe a few RPGs here and there (the Japanese love their RPGs afterall). They need to remove some of this RPG-ness from PES. The random roles of the dice that determine player form, "momentum shifting" etc. Even the player cards are very RPG-y.

You still haven't answered what TV show you were talking about, or is it a secret? :hmm:

Also, it's strange to see so many of the Off topic folk back in the PES section :)
 

Tech_Skill

Registered User
For those who dont know, or care.....there is some information set to be released at 1am UK time on the new PES game, part of some ''pre e3 konami press conference''.

Im hoping the big news here is ''we are removing the horrible laser guided throughballs forever from ALL future pes games''

Im suprised more people dont talk about it often, those passes absolutely RUIN the game, i hate using them and they have no place in a game where the standard passing is already semi-manual, its embarassing in a modern day game to have passing like that.

I reckon they wont fix it though.

Also we talk about player individially on pes, but does the AI have any individuality, every team on top player pretty much plays the SAME tactics (go out wide and spam the throughball) and the AI can do anything with ANY player, the stats clearly dont mean much, so thats something again that needs changing, the AI is just trash in this game.
 

Hunter

BELIEVE
I'm hoping the announcement will be "we're not releasing PES until August 2012".

The thought now of 2K developing a football game is certainly very intriguing, and to be honest, I'd have so much faith behind them, y'know given their track record of simply amazing games the last few years. They're probably the most consistently brilliant developers since moving to the 'new' hardware of Xbox 360 and PS3 now. You could say R* but most of their games are incredibly similar so I discount that somewhat.
 

Amateur

Registered User
I think you also have to look at who makes these games. EA Sports, and 2K Sports are both sports specific areas of the companies..... whereas Konami.... is just Konami. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do Konami even make any other sports games?
Some of the chaps that make PES are probably the same people that develop other non-sport Konami games, maybe a few RPGs here and there (the Japanese love their RPGs afterall). They need to remove some of this RPG-ness from PES. The random roles of the dice that determine player form, "momentum shifting" etc. Even the player cards are very RPG-y.

That's a good point. Though regardless of who makes the game, I think that a company should never release a video game such as PES08. I mean, reputation goes a long way, you can tarnish your reputation in one day, but it takes years to earn a good reputation.

With PES08 and PES09 Konami made it painfully obvious that they didn't know what to do with the series, which certainly damaged their reputation.

As for the RPG-ness of PES. I think that real football is very RPG-esque, therefore I think that a footy sim should have a touch of RPG-ness. At the same time, I agree with your point, because Konami uses RPG elements in areas that should be more manual and dynamic.

I think RPG mechanics should have to do with the tactical side of the game, but not the technical side of the game.

For example, holding or not holding the sprint button when the ball carrier passes the ball, should dictate different defensive reactions, with the defensive reactions playing a fundamental part to the outcome of the game -- this would be an RPG mechanic used for the tactical side of the game.

Such an RPG mechanic would fix a great deal of flaws, because it would make it impossible to move without the ball in accordance to the future, it would only be possible to predict the future in accordance to how you read the game; or in other words, it would be impossible to hold the sprint button and run directly into the space where you know that the play will culminate, because pressing the sprint button will determine the direction in which the player runs without the ball.

Therefore fixing the cheap tactics that people use with Cristiano Ronaldo, where they simply press the sprint button and Cristiano Ronaldo runs in accordance to the future, effectively making himself omnipresent. The mentioned RPG mechanic would give more importance to the footballing brain of the user, without taking anything away from the technical side of the game.

On the other hand, dribbling, passing, tackling, shooting, should be more manual and less RPG, but without loosing the player individuality. The movement without the ball going RPG would create new space on the left analog stick, which would no doubt be beneficial for the technical side of the game.

You still haven't answered what TV show you were talking about, or is it a secret? :hmm:

I forgot about that detail. It was a Mexican soap opera -- "Eva Luna" -- it became one of the most successful in the genre's history.

I never watch such type of entertainment, but this one had something special about it, you have to see it to believe it.... the most incredibly stupid characters falling for the most ridiculous bullshit time and time again, lots of unintentionally hilarious scenes, yet the performances are good enough to carry the show despite the remarkable standard of stupidity.

I used the word "extended" loosely, but the novel should have ended at least two months before it did.... and coming from someone who writes long winded posts you should have an idea.

Also, it's strange to see so many of the Off topic folk back in the PES section :)

Perhaps something to do with the mafia wars?
 

Ali

It is happening again
I think RPG mechanics should have to do with the tactical side of the game, but not the technical side of the game.

That's true, but then... I don't want the computer to randomly select their tactics, I want them to... you know, play tactically. I also don't want every flippin' AI team to play the same tactics against me, it has gotten to that stage in my ML. I have teams like Arsenal starting with 2 def mids, then changing to 3 in the 2nd half.

When I go through on goal, it does feel like the game is rolling a virtual dice to see if the player will finish, and that the players attribute only determines the chance of that "roll" resulting in a hit (there goes the strength of my RPG knowledge :)).
 

Amateur

Registered User
That's true, but then... I don't want the computer to randomly select their tactics, I want them to... you know, play tactically. I also don't want every flippin' AI team to play the same tactics against me, it has gotten to that stage in my ML. I have teams like Arsenal starting with 2 def mids, then changing to 3 in the 2nd half.

I understand what you mean, my point is that the game currently is and has always been very simplistic in this respect. The tactical side of the game is and has always been completely broken, as far as I'm concerned.

Without midfield play the tactical side of the game is only imaginary. And if the movement without the ball is actually determined by the left analog stick, as a result the players on the pitch will move like people watching the game from the stands.... therefore completely fucking up the purpose of midfield play, since you can move in accordance to the future; why follow the trajectory of the ball when you can move directly into the space where you know that the river ends?

There's a great difference between (a) actually playing football, and (b) simply running like a headless chicken and basically playing basketball in a football pitch.

(a) the necessity of critical thinking in order to actually be there when the play reaches the end of the river.

(b) the computer spoon feeding you the exact space where the culmination of the play will take place, before the actual play starts to take shape, therefore making midfield play completely insubstantial and redundant.

Without midfield play, the game is a hectic end to end basketball game where the speed of the game is completely redundant, because the speed of the game will never compensate for the lack of substance.

The bottom line is, the computer cannot play tactically because the game does not function around tactics.... the video game is completely scripted by the computer and the script itself does not work around tactics, the footballing brain of the user does not really play a part because the tactics work automatically; therefore how can you play tactically when you have no control over the actual tactics? It cannot be done.

For example, if the sprint button determined (a) the direction in which the player runs without the ball, and (b) the speed at which the player runs without the ball, and (c) the exact position that the player without the ball occupies. And at the same time, the mentioned sprint button system is conditioned by flawless things, such as when the ball carrier passes the ball.

If that was the case, the game would revolve around tactics, because getting close to the ball carrier would not simply be a matter of directing the left analog stick and pressing the sprint button; instead, getting close to the ball carrier would require critical thinking, the user would need to predict what the team in possession will do with the ball before the ball carrier passes the ball, the user will need to react by either holding or not holding the sprint button at the exact time that the ball carrier passes the ball.... therefore making it necessary to play tactically because it would be impossible to disregard the tactical side of the game.

Not only would you need to employ the correct tactics, you would also need to manually know how to play the football. As a result, the tactical side of the game would be an RPG/MANUAL type of game.

Anyways. The point is that with the current game, your footballing brain means fuck all, because the game has nothing to do with tactics, it's all about the technical side of the game.

*
*

Though of course, one could be more simplistic about it and simply blame it on the lack of detail that has gone into the tactical side of the game.

If you could go to the team settings, select one midfielder and one forward, and design very specific patterns of off the ball movement for the selected targets, specific enough so that you can determine the exact space where the target starts his run and also the exact space where the target finishes the run.... that would no doubt make the game feel much more tactical.

As a result, it would be possible to take David Villa as the selected forward, and design a pattern of off the ball movement where David Villa starts his run from somewhere near the opponent's penalty area, and finishes his run somewhere in the middle of the pitch. The fact that you would know where the selected target starts his run and where he finishes his run, would no doubt add a great deal of team individuality.

If you could press the pressure sensitive L2 shoulder button, and as a result Xavi Hernandez started running towards the position of the ball, that would make the game feel much more tactical.

But the fact is, that neither Konami nor EA Sports seem interested at all, in trying to produce a serious football simulation. It's all about cheap thrills and spills without ever thinking, designing your own patterns of off the ball movement would be far too substantial for what Konami has in mind.

There's really no other explanation I can find, to justify the complete lack of invention that has gone into these video games. If you compare PES5 on the PS2 with PES11 on the PS3, when you play without the ball, it feels like the same exact fucking game.

When I go through on goal, it does feel like the game is rolling a virtual dice to see if the player will finish, and that the players attribute only determines the chance of that "roll" resulting in a hit (there goes the strength of my RPG knowledge :)).

Fully agree. That's why I think that the technical side of the game should be more manual and less RPG, whereas the tactical side of the game should be less LITERAL and more RPG/manual.

The fact that movement without the ball is LITERALLY determined by the left analog stick, is one of the main reasons for why the technical side of the game feels like the computer is rolling a virtual dice that completely undermines the ability of the user.
 

Tech_Skill

Registered User
Watched the fucking E3 video. Not fucking impressed at all, what the fuck is going on with the so called ''motion capture'' because I ain't seeing any of it in this fucking game.....lets put it into perspective here...

Peter Crouch doing the robot dance had more fluidity then what I saw in this video.

There is a gap in the market here if someone is serious about making a football game, that gap being they still haven't managed to make a great one since about 2007.

I had to cool off on the ''tech skill soccer'' thing because If I talk anymore about it, more people are gonna say ''seriously tech....when's your game coming out, seriously, you cant leave us with these shit games for another year man, bring the game out....come on tech bring it out......please tech.....Please!!!!!''.

The only reason my game aint coming out yet, is because I simply dont want be the cause of massive job cuts at EA and Konami once they realise a game with about 100 employees and a 100 million dollars in budget cannot beat a game that some cunt made up in 30 seconds whilst working a full time job on the side.
 
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