Screenshots, Videos, & Much More!!! - Part 1
- Thread starter SammyGunner11
- Start date
GuNNerZae
Registered User
Agreed... It is quite pathetic and that proverb that you've picked up on is spot on and i must say nice find, albeit, from my perspective and do i dare say from an average Joe's point of view, Football 777 appears the more foolish because of his extremely childish antics and the way he evades Amateurs valid arguements with pety and offensive comments.
Amateur's 20 minute concept is one to consider and this guy is resorting to pathetic insults to put him down and it is really childish. It's clear that Football 777 is the more impatient and foolish of the two... for god sake grow up and keep it civil, because in doing so we can continue with constructive discussion and inevitably we achieve a better PES 2011.
You two are just repeating everything you have said in prior post. Not only that, but you're letting it get too personal now. Amateur, you said you was done and after that, I told both of you to stop the discussion now, but you both couldn't help it, could you?
Carry on and you'll both be sent off.
Carry on and you'll both be sent off.
Ultimate777
Banned
Ok gunnerzae please show me the arguments I've failed to answer in return to amatuers? If you look past the last two pages where I've had to defend myself against mods and members alike making false accusations, you'll see I've gone to great lengths at responding to every single line in his posts and theories prooving that they wont work in reality. So dont get it twisted, amatuer has gone to great lengths at actually avoiding key questions and resorting to name calling, which I dont have a problem with so long as he manages to answer my points. Why do you think he has been booked if he hasnt been offensive and childish swearing all over place because he is unable to answer basic questions?
Also take note a fool is one who jumps to conclusions and makes false assumptions and wrong judement without first assessing and analysing the approviate evidence where its impossble to give a balanced view without weighing both sides of the argument. Its a path your slowly tredding down if you cannot provide the evidence where I've ignored arguments and if you fail to answer my questions below.
Maybe you might be able to help answer some of my questions since you also believe that the concept is one to consider.
1. How will konami needing to implement two different statistical player database to coincide and make the difference for a 10min vs 20min do this without making things confusing in edit mode?
2. How will multiplayer mode work if you have friends round and then they have to wait out 40-60minute in between games in order to play the new realistic version of the game?
3. How will master league work when there is over 36 games not including tornaments,cups which have extra time, forcing you to play at 40minutes? That will be a long season to take to complete dont you think? Also you would not be able to change the time settings during the ML mode because the 10 mode and 20 min mode require two seperate statistical databases?
4. How will casual gamers be satisfied who are use to playing 10min in online, ML mode if they dont get the same benefits included from playing 20min sim? But will be reduced to playing ping-pong football with no individuality with obvious flaws? Do you think the fan base would be satifsied with being cut short on their options?
5. How will edit mode work when what will be required is two seperate player databases? One for stats that are inline with 10minute acrcade super human stamina no indivualilty mode that he proposes? and another for 20 minute which offers freedom of player movement and inviduslity?
Those are my questions which I've tried to get answered. I'd appreciate you can answer them as they are far from foolish. If you went into an office game development conference in the real word, you would need to present your ideas explaining the pro and cons and how possible it will fit into the game. You'll then be challenged to go further in depth explaining the technicalitieson how it would successfully be implemented into the game without interfering with other aspects. I'm afraid you wouldnt have the luxery of hiding in a basement sitting behind a computer screen telling the audience that they simply dont understand once you've run out of ideas.
I now have an infraction because I responded to the wind up trying to make these points because he doesnt know when to stop.
Okrass you are not philosopher so stop the uneducated pretencious tripe where no wise man has ever said anything of the sort because it doesnt make sense and is clearly made up by yourself. Or maybe a drunken hombo may have muttered to himself while you were passing where you may have picked it from, but never a wise man. There is no author quoting anything of this rubbish so it wasnt a nice find, it was plucked out of thin air. Now thats pathetic.
The correct apt proverb is from Plato which fits persons like yourself who cant really form their own opinion and offer much or provide diverse views to add towards the debate at hand and instead, speak for the sake speaking
“Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something.” ~Plato
Here is another to one to educate yourself with
... A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks. ~Ben Jonson ... Don't speak unless you can improve on the silence. ~Spanish Proverb ...
Get it? Now dont speak unless you can either come up with something constructive that adds to debate, or just keep silent.
Furthermore if you want a debate, damn well debate, dont sit there rubbishing bits you dont like without offering anything to the table yourself. This also applies to you Gunnerzee
As you dont seem to have opinions. You just sit there bitching about things you dont agree with, without offering one iota of an opinion yourself.
Last edited:
Ultimate777
Banned
Mods- Apologise for falling for the bait even though I did ask him to stop, I will refrain from further discussion from now on with amateur. I should have just walked away after he went into a swearing tirade but felt he had to be put into place. Even though I feel the infraction given to me is harsh considering I have not used abusive or foul language throughout this thread like some thers have while trying to accuse me of doing the same, I accept the decision.
Last edited:
shankly is god
Registered User
this is silly! cant we all just get along!
its only a game!
its only a game!
Ultimate777
Banned
Thank you for that insightful, deep and meaningful comment that makes this thread so much more interesting. Well done.
shankly is god
Registered User
Are you tech in disguise?
He's correct though. There is no need for comments like that. A straight booking will follow any post that is not on topic from here on.
HH
Registered User
Bored as I am right now, I'll say what ive said for the last two years concerning the game we once loved; look at what the developers of American sports' games do when creating a game that focuses on individual characters. Ive played nearly every next-gen basketball game since 08' and the last two Madden games and their focus on the player individuality and team play improves every year. Even EA Sports' Fifa has to look at their games despite them taking over from PES as the best football game around. You cant distinguish a player other than their ability and their name, you can make another player from the lower ranks of Brazil play like Kaka, its that easy. In the games I have aforementioned, you cant create a player simply by cloning their attributes. Lets take NBA Superstar Kobe Bryant for example (I might be explaining a little bit out of my depth here with this), there is no other player in the world like him, the way he shoots, the way he moves and his general mindset in playing the game, I can copy and paste his attributes but I can never recreate the way he plays and his tendencies. Also, you cant clone the way he performs when the game is on the line.
My bloody long point is, I think if there was time to be put in on how players actually played football, then the game would improve, rather than just assigning stats to players because thats how they portray themselves in real-life. No, I think they need to study the way every player moves, kicks, thinks in a game. I dont think it would be that hard anyway, just get avid football fans in one room for a day and have them debate how a player plays. How Messi likes to cut in on his left foot, Xavi dictates the game strictly from the midfield or how Rooney would strive to help out his team mates in all aspects of the game.
If thats too much, then at least implement a better focus on team strategy. Far too many people who play football games dont focus enough on the tactical side of the game, some find it boring and would rather just play the game because they have the players to just run and score. Fair enough, but even then where the tactics are already set out for them, some are inaccurate and this the case with most of the lesser teams. We should be able to control much more than just the way we attack and defend.
My bloody long point is, I think if there was time to be put in on how players actually played football, then the game would improve, rather than just assigning stats to players because thats how they portray themselves in real-life. No, I think they need to study the way every player moves, kicks, thinks in a game. I dont think it would be that hard anyway, just get avid football fans in one room for a day and have them debate how a player plays. How Messi likes to cut in on his left foot, Xavi dictates the game strictly from the midfield or how Rooney would strive to help out his team mates in all aspects of the game.
If thats too much, then at least implement a better focus on team strategy. Far too many people who play football games dont focus enough on the tactical side of the game, some find it boring and would rather just play the game because they have the players to just run and score. Fair enough, but even then where the tactics are already set out for them, some are inaccurate and this the case with most of the lesser teams. We should be able to control much more than just the way we attack and defend.
RAMAXWY
Registered User
agree, and that's what i thought FIFA was going for this year with the "personality +" introduction but after seeing the examples i guess they will just be adding stats to the players this year.
which still is a great thing for FIFA so don't get me wrong but that doesn't say anything yet about a players personality just his abilities.
to get the difference from players with almost the same abilities the addition of a personality is a must and would be unbelievable if pulled off correctly.
Amateur
Registered User
I have been saying that for a while now,
The problem is, we all know just how much Leo Messi and CR9 stand out in PES... their physical and technical qualities are easy to note.
On the other hand, players like Xavi Hernandez, what he does in real-life, you cannot implement that into a 10 minute game -- because he is a THINKER and you cannot THINK in a 10 minute game,
That's the key problem with the 10 Minute Concept, it turns an unpredictable tactical game into a monotonous goal-scoring fest.
So what Konami does is simple, whenever a player like Xavi has the ball at his feet, the team will automatically position themselves better. The -- automatic -- feel of the game is what makes it boring, it's just out of date.
It's like the game tells you what to do and you just follow the instructions; a realistic football simulation should give the user the initiative of thinking -- the COM should ask the user what to do,
So what Konami can do: take a long look at how human beings move on a football pitch, take a long look at how they react to the position of the ball, look at the gameplay mechanics of real-life football and implement only the indispensable parts of it.
Once the players on the pitch move and react realistically, it will be impossible to play 10 minute games...
And once that happens, you can implement new stats for playmakers like Xavi Hernandez and Andrea Pirlo -- both are good at creating opportunities and dictating play -- the question is, how different are they? in real-life they have different ideas on how to dictate play, this should be implemented into video games like PES,
Some people will say that this would take the "fun" pick-up and play factor out of the game, etc, etc; the truth is that both PES and FIFA are in need of a new game mode -- a game mode that focuses on audiences that no longer enjoy repetitive 10 minute games,
That's my disappointment with both FIFA and PES, the lack of innovation, the lack of initiative,
Also in a 10 min game you can't mimic reality as you said. 
byrnie05
Registered User
I understood the concept you were putting forward, anyone who has watched a 90-minute match knows what you are asking for. A game whereby you have the ball in midfield a lot, or being passed around the back four for 30-seconds whilst someone decides what to do. Players scrabbling on the floor, trying to hook out a ball from under their feet. People trying to shoot and having it rebound off the player. Games whereby you might only engineer one shot in the whole game.
The 10-minute concept emphasises the be be-all-and-end-all of football, essentially the goal scoring. Goal scoring takes up around five minutes perhaps of an average game. Chances maybe 10 minutes? The rest of the time is midfield drudgery or the ball going out for throw-ins or players being talked to by the ref. With the 20-minute concept, it would seem to me you'd want to bring the duller aspects of a football match to the gaming experience, whereas the 10-minute concept does its best to distill what makes people love the game so much.
Amateur
Registered User
With the 20 Minute Concept, there's a lot of things that could be implemented into the game, be it the "duller aspects of football" as you mentioned -- or -- what is in my opinion, the essential aspects of football.
At the moment, with 10 Minute Simulations, a huge problem for me is that the game is boring when you don't have possession of the ball.
And also, because the game is 10 minutes long, the game revolves around a formulated script that reads "each team must have (x) amounts of chances before the game ends" -- this is a huge problem...
A small team like Birmingham playing wonderful possession football -- why? -- because the script decided that it was their turn to have possession of the ball, and if they continue stroking the ball from side to side -- you will never gain possession of the ball... which means that the COM will decide when it is your turn to have possession, thus a miss-timed pass or miss-placed pass will happen so that you can have possession of the ball.
And if miss-timed or miss-placed passes do not work, and you still have possession of the ball; the COM will simply dictate a change in momentum, which means that your team's off-the-ball movement will be shit, your team-mates will position themselves in all the wrong positions -- thus making it easier for you to loose possession of the ball,
I mean, is possession football even a possibility in a 10 minute game?
Another big problem with 10 Minute Sims, is the generic player individuality... you cannot have true-to-life player individuality in a 10 minute game; which is why physical attributes stand out so much, but the tactical aspect of the game is almost entirely automatic.
If the game was 10 minutes longer, we would have enough space for true-to-life player individuality, enough space for the game to have some solid substance at its core -- so that easy goals are impossible, so that possession football is possible, etc, etc.
The 20 Minute Concept should focus on possession football and counter attacking football,
Counter attacking football is pretty straight-forward and does not requires much thinking attacking-wise, you don't have time to think in a counter attack; however, counter attacking football requires thinking defensive-wise,
The problem with 10 Minute Sims is that:
1st -- possession football is mostly or entirely an illusion, and is not really possible or relevant,
2nd -- defending requires almost no thinking, you just run after the player with the ball and you can always move in accordance to what you can see from your wide view perspective, etc, etc,
3rd -- lack of player individuality, Chelsea dominating possession against a team like Barcelona; things that never happen in real-life football,
So the point of the 20 Minute Concept:
1st -- realistic and detailed player individuality; no longer will Chelsea dominate possession against a team like Barcelona... you will need to play to your strengths,
2nd -- possession football would actually be possible and useful; no longer an illusion,
3rd -- counter attacking football will be fun to play, because the defensive side of the game will be as fun as attacking,
4th -- a concept where the COM would ask the user what to do instead of telling the user what to do, where the user has "total control" -- thus never feeling like he "cannot do anything to stop or prevent that from happening"
--------------------------------------------
10 Minute Sims are outdated and overlook the fun parts of football, football can be very entertaining and fun even without the goals; on the other hand, try playing PES 2010 or FIFA10 without scoring goals...
The point of the 20 Minute Concept is simple, give the user the option,
---------------------------------------------
* 10 Minute Mode,
* 20 Minute Mode,
* BAL Mode,
---------------------------------------------
If you want to play a game without flaws, a game that can be taken seriously and played competitively, you can play the 20 Minute Mode; if you want to play short and repetitive games, full of flaws and easy goals, you can play the 10 Minute Mode,
It's simply about making the game appealing to a wider audience, the word "fun" means different things to different people,
In my opinion, the 10 Minute Concept takes a lot of "fun" out of the game,
Alolo91
Registered User
shankly is god
Registered User
^^ thanks alolo some good stuff there!