PES Rage Thread: Rage till your heart's content...

[Dragonfly]

They were raging (loosely) about PES, so I suppose they were on topic? :hmm:

 

[Hunter]

They were raging (loosely) about PES, so I suppose they were on topic? :hmm:

I never said it went off topic, but they were blatently insulting each other, quite ferociously as well, to the point of insulting family members by comparing them to pictures of disabled people (I've removed the pictures and references). There's a clear line between debating on topic and insulting one another.

lol, that makes sense, you do have the Grinch as your avatar after all! :laugh:

:lol:

How The Grinch Stole Christmas is probably my all time favourite Christmas movie and I'm a big Dr. Seuss fan so it's only right I sport the wonderfully cruel yet lovable Grinch character as my avatar. A soul who despises Christmas and all it's spirit, only to be swayed by the joy it brings to so many, changing his outlook on life and finally showing endearment to those around him. This of course doesn't reflect me as I've always appreciated Christmas time, but it's still an excellent story.

 

[Dragonfly]

That wasn't aimed at you, Hunter.

 

[Ali]

If you think it is annoying when you play ML, you should play Online, a lot of goals are scored because the COM pulled a couple of strings and basically provided you with a cheap shot at goal.

We should have control over the script, but we cannot have control over the script if the left analogue stick produces scripted or pre-determined movements which cannot be measured with precision: the left analogue stick (and d-pad) needs to affect the movement from one pace into another space, but also, the movement inside one space.

If that flaw is not fixed, the game will remain scripted and automatic.

I agree with what you're saying about the AI cheating in multiplayer. It's been happening in PES waaaay before online. Maybe as far back as ps1. I don't think it's to do with the L stick though, since it happened when we were still on the d pad. Basically, the game just lets things work out the way it wants them to. You can see goals coming a mile away. Players won't tackle properly, will move out of the way etc etc. Too many goals occur just after you've score. It's a football cliche to say you're at your most vulnerable when you've just scored... but PES takes it too far.

EDIT: You actually mentioned the d pad, but I still don't agree that the cheating is to do with the controls.

Also, I replied to your last 2 rants at me in the Madrid thread, feel free to respond... but let's not descend into mindless name calling and swearing like *ahem* other members eh?

 

[LOL-ness]

When the CPU plays a thoughball, it moves your defender for a split second or two, just enough to kill his momentum in getting to the ball it will do some of the following the moment the through pass is made...

1) Move him In a different direction
2) Makes Him stand still

It does this momentarily, and then allows the defender to go back to the path of the ball and make a challenge for the ball, by which point the CPU attacker has beaten him to the thoughball because he has the momentum all along.

Yeah, I've noticed that a lot, unfortunately, and I don't like it at all. It feels like you really could've stopped the attack with your defender, but was completely let down by the AI.

I somehow think it's related to cursor switch though, because the situation you described doesn't usually happen to me when I use manual. It only occurs when I set the game to semi-auto (which unfortunately I have to use because manual switch sometimes lag).

EDIT:

Also, I replied to your last 2 rants at me in the Madrid thread, feel free to respond... but let's not descend into mindless name calling and swearing like *ahem* other members eh?

I say; leave him be. He'll post if he feels like it. IMO though, it's better if he doesn't post at all, because it'll either come down to: 1) Left Stick, or 2) Insulting other forum members for disagreeing with him.

Doesn't he realise why he keeps making enemies on this forum?

 

[Sminky]

To use the term 'Enemies' is a bit melodramatic. Lets not carried away now.

 

[LOL-ness]

To use the term 'Enemies' is a bit melodramatic. Lets not carried away now.

Off-topic: I am sorry, but that's really how I genuinely feel. I don't like to use this term myself, but if you read the Real Madrid thread, you'd see that Amateur has insulted me with swear words and name calling just because I said his post is off-topic (I mean, it is off-topic. OP was talking about why Real Madrid is overpowered, and here he comes ranting about the left stick again).

 

[Top Gun]

Losing out on the unbeaten season in the second to last game,

or,

Losing the Champions League final after being 2-0 up.

Both annoying but wouldn't say I rage about these things, just shrug it off. Apart from that I'm loving the game and am currently in my 5th season with Atletico Madrid, definitely a throwback to 5 and 6

 

[Amateur]

I agree with what you're saying about the AI cheating in multiplayer. It's been happening in PES waaaay before online. Maybe as far back as ps1. I don't think it's to do with the L stick though, since it happened when we were still on the d pad. Basically, the game just lets things work out the way it wants them to. You can see goals coming a mile away. Players won't tackle properly, will move out of the way etc etc. Too many goals occur just after you've score. It's a football cliche to say you're at your most vulnerable when you've just scored... but PES takes it too far.

EDIT: You actually mentioned the d pad, but I still don't agree that the cheating is to do with the controls.

Also, I replied to your last 2 rants at me in the Madrid thread, feel free to respond... but let's not descend into mindless name calling and swearing like *ahem* other members eh?

This is what it all boils down to: you direct the left analogue stick or the d-pad, it only affects movement from one space to another space, but it does not affects movement INSIDE one determined space.

Tackling is not running from one space into another space, if the left analogue stick does not determine the movement inside a determined space: who really determines the accuracy and effectiveness of the standing tackle or the sliding tackle?

I can tell you one thing.... you are not in control of it; example, you pulled off what looked like a perfect sliding tackle, but the referee or COM decided it was a foul, your opponent scores from the free-kick.

The computer dictates the ideal circumstances for corner-kicks or throw-ins by determining the position of the players; example, you pass the ball to a player whom is running along the right flank, as soon as the player trapped the pass, a defender came in and knocked the ball out of the pitch -- who decided that the opponent would get close to the ball so easily? who really decided the throw-in considering the fact that the user cannot actually determine the movement inside a determined space?

Another example: you pass the ball to a player whom is positioned on the right flank, close to the line, when the player trapped the ball, you then directed the pass, but whilst you directed the pass, your player continued running automatically even though you were not touching the sprint button, and because of this, he ran out of the pitch before he could release the pass....

Freedom they say? And yet you cannot fucking move yourself like a proper human being?

As a result you loose possession of the ball just because your players are morons who don't seem to be capable of moving without also affecting their positions on the pitch -- this is even worst when it happens with defenders, as it results in costly mistakes, such as stupid corner kicks, and then your opponent scores from the corner kick.

And how far does this goes, if you consider that dribbling is not running, if you consider that movement inside one space is not running; how does this flaw or restriction affects: your position on the pitch, your movement without the ball, your movement with the ball, passing animations, passing angles, shooting animations, shooting angles, dribbling animations, stationary dribbling animations, feinting animations, trapping animations, man-marking animations, tackling animations?

This means that there is no structure, no substance, and no consistency, to how the game plays and functions, because fundamental things such as the movement without the ball, are LITERALLY determined by the movement of the left analogue stick; which means that the game needs to be scripted by the computer, and cannot be scripted by the user, because it lacks the space and time required for the user to have control over the areas that constitute the script.




The game has always revolved around the direction in which a pass, a player with the ball, or a player without the ball, moves from one determined space into another determined space: it has always been impossible to use the d-pad or the left analogue stick, to move inside a determined space.

This is why, if you play a PS1 or PS2 or PS3 version of ISS or PES or FIFA, you will always experience the following: direct the left analogue stick or the d-pad without the assistance of any other button, and this will be enough to cover spaces of over 30 feet of distance.

The problem is and has always been: what happens if I only want to affect my movement INSIDE a determined space of 5 feet of distance?

What happens if I want to use the left analogue stick to affect my movement inside a circle or square of precisely 5 feet of distance?

What happens is, logically, that it is impossible.... because the left analogue stick automatically produces or triggers movement from one space to another space, and thus, the left analogue stick cannot possibly be accurate enough to affect your movements inside a space of precisely 5 feet of distance.

This means that the video game actually needs to be scripted, because the game does not have the SPACE and TIME necessary in order to implement the substance and structure, necessary for the user to have real control over the game.

Adding more directions in terms of how you pass the ball from one space into another space, more directions in terms of how the player runs from one space into another space, due to obvious and logical reasons, will never actually fix the fact that you cannot move inside one determined space; therefore, it will never actually fix the core flaws which are inherent when the left analogue stick and d-pad cannot affect movement inside a determined space.

This means that, since the left analogue stick can actually determine the distance covered with the ball without the assistance of the sprint button, since the sprint button is obsolete without the assistance of the left analogue stick: you cannot affect the movement inside a determined space, or in other words, it is impossible to affect movement without also affecting your position on the pitch.

The left analogue stick always, permanently, produces running physics which affect movement from one space into another space; which means that a lot of space and time that you might perceive in terms of visuals is mere illusion in terms of utility, because you cannot actually use it since it does not actually exists in the game.

And thus, the game does not provide the user with the SPACE and TIME that is necessary to implement the substance and structure, necessary for the user to actually have real control over the game.

Try playing 20 minute games with PES11, see how many goals you score in just 20 minutes of play, and see how many mistakes are entirely out of your control; not enough SPACE, and as a result, not enough TIME, to allow you enough control over the game.

You could play PES11 for 90 minutes straight, if it was possible, and the game would probably end with an unrealistic 18-14 score line; not enough SPACE, and as a result, not enough TIME, to allow you enough control over the game.

And let it be clear, that implementing enough space and time into a 10 minute game, is just as possible as highlighting 90 minutes of play in 10 minutes of footage.




This is why it is necessary for the movement without the ball to be LITERALLY determined by the movement of the left analogue stick, because the game does not actually has the SPACE and TIME required for proper build up play; and how can you minimize the mentioned fact?

By eliminating build up play, but making you feel like you are in control, and making you think that build up play is possible within the confines of the video game: it's not.

How do you create an illusion of control?

A byproduct of how the left analogue stick functions, is the following fact: the movement without the ball is LITERALLY determined by the movements of the left analogue stick, the movement without the ball is not determined by the position and movement of the ball; without the ball, the sprint button is obsolete without the assistance of the left analogue stick or d-pad.

Which means the following: without the ball, you direct the left analogue stick in circles, and as a result, a player on the pitch will move in circles.... in other words, a player without the ball will react in accordance to the movements of the left analogue stick, but not in accordance to the movement and position of the ball.

The user moves the left analogue stick and a player without the ball will instantly respond to the command of the user, this creates an illusion of control, but in reality, this is the reason why the user does not have control over the important areas of the game; which are the areas that constitute the script, that is, movement without the ball.

By doing this, Konami minimizes the flaws of their product.

Example: I take a fast player like Cristiano Ronaldo, I direct the left analogue stick, Cristiano Ronaldo reacts in accordance to the movements of the left analogue stick, that is, Cristiano Ronaldo reacts and moves as if he had a radar implemented into his brain; and because it is impossible to affect the movement inside one determined space, Cristiano Ronaldo easily disposes of Andres Iniesta because CR7 is a lot faster and moves from one space into another space much faster, and ultimately, Cristiano Ronaldo wins the ball and starts an attack; rush and push football, bashing buttons without ever actually utilizing your brain.

FACT: it is impossible for build up play to exist, if the movement without the ball is not determined by the movement and position of the ball.

How can you contain the movement of the ball if the defensive controls or buttons do not function in accordance to the movement of the ball?

You cannot contain the movement of the ball, it is out of your power, out of your hands, the COM will decide this for you and will give you the upper hand in random occasions, and by the same principle, the COM will also play against you and will give your opponent the upper hand: this mostly happens right after you score a goal, because the COM is looking for a way to even things and make the game more exciting than it really is.

This is what we correctly describe as CHEATING or as SCRIPTED gameplay.

You can see it from a mile away, but you cannot actually prevent it from taking place, it is a very old formula: I direct the left analogue stick in circles, and a player without the ball moves in accordance to the movements of the left analogue stick; this means that the video game actually needs to be scripted, because the left analogue stick produces repetitive and pre-determined physics which visually look almost identical but in terms of utility or effectiveness are determined by statistics.

In real life, a player like Cristiano Ronaldo would never have the defensive accuracy required to steal the ball from a player like Lio Messi; in PES, you can easily do it, and it requires no precision at all, you just bash the sprint button until you win the ball, the computer will take care of the defensive accuracy required to steal the ball away from players like Andres Iniesta or Lio Messi.

If the user could affect the movement inside a determined space, this would create a new dimension of space that is currently nonexistent, which means that it would also create a new dimension of time: space and time that is necessary and required in order to measure and think about how you tackle without the ball or how you dribble with the ball.

What we have with PES, is animations or physics which work AUTOMATICALLY in accordance to statistics: the user does not uses the statistics, instead, the statistics work automatically.... and who decides when Cristiano Ronaldo easily disposes of Lio Messi? The computer.

At the end of the day, the COMPUTER will decide whatever the hell it wants to decide, it is completely out of your control: cheating, scripted gameplay, where winning or loosing is determined by who exploited the most flaws and by who scored the most goals when the computer gifted him with the chance.

 

[stottmeister]

I was 1-0 up against Chelsea in my ML with Tottenham and conceded a late equaliser from a set peice which I had accepted and settled for the fact i'd only get a point instead of the three I wanted until the most stupid thing happened.

They played a long ball, more of a clearance really, down the left wing. Hutton was way forward and totally caught out so Woodgate came across and caught the ball just before it went out for a throw in.

Now here's the thing. Instead of hoofing it, as I wanted, he spun and passed it into the centre of the pitch, maybe halfway between the goal and the halfway line.

Who got to it first? Drogba! With a clear run on goal I got within ''red card'' tackle of him with Gallas. Full sprint and just about to drop him and my man decides to change from sprint to stupid side shuffle running giving Drogba the space necessary to slot home the winner.

On paper, losing to a late Drogba goal isn't that unusual but the manner in which Pro made this happen is unbelievably frustrating. The pass by Woody was nothing like the B button usually does, and the sprint by Gallas was clearly held back by the cpu.

 

[stottmeister]

I was 1-0 up against Chelsea in my ML with Tottenham and conceded a late equaliser from a set peice which I had accepted and settled for the fact i'd only get a point instead of the three I wanted until the most stupid thing happened.

They played a long ball, more of a clearance really, down the left wing. Hutton was way forward and totally caught out so Woodgate came across and caught the ball just before it went out for a throw in.

Now here's the thing. Instead of hoofing it, as I wanted, he spun and passed it into the centre of the pitch, maybe halfway between the goal and the halfway line.

Who got to it first? Drogba! With a clear run on goal I got within ''red card'' tackle of him with Gallas. Full sprint and just about to drop him and my man decides to change from sprint to stupid side shuffle running giving Drogba the space necessary to slot home the winner.

On paper, losing to a late Drogba goal isn't that unusual but the manner in which Pro made this happen is unbelievably frustrating. The pass by Woody was nothing like the B button usually does, and the sprint by Gallas was clearly held back by the cpu.

 

[Ali]

I was 1-0 up against Chelsea in my ML with Tottenham and conceded a late equaliser from a set peice which I had accepted and settled for the fact i'd only get a point instead of the three I wanted until the most stupid thing happened.

They played a long ball, more of a clearance really, down the left wing. Hutton was way forward and totally caught out so Woodgate came across and caught the ball just before it went out for a throw in.

Now here's the thing. Instead of hoofing it, as I wanted, he spun and passed it into the centre of the pitch, maybe halfway between the goal and the halfway line.

Who got to it first? Drogba! With a clear run on goal I got within ''red card'' tackle of him with Gallas. Full sprint and just about to drop him and my man decides to change from sprint to stupid side shuffle running giving Drogba the space necessary to slot home the winner.

On paper, losing to a late Drogba goal isn't that unusual but the manner in which Pro made this happen is unbelievably frustrating. The pass by Woody was nothing like the B button usually does, and the sprint by Gallas was clearly held back by the cpu.

Nice bit of AI cheating there. I feel your frustration.

Amateur - I kinda understand about what your saying, however the real frustrations (for me anyway) come when the game doesn't do what you tell it to do, or does something that you don't tell it to do (bit of a difference). I haven't really thought about the L stick to the same depth that you have, but like you say, it does feel like the game decides things for you... a lack of freedom.

At times the game takes over you. Players running out of play, moving away from the ball when the opposition has it, controlling the way the players run onto through balls. All ways of limiting the scoreline in favour of the AI team, otherwise it would be too easy. They just need to make the AI good at the game.

I don't have a problem with the way the L stick works, but you have your opinions, fine by me

I suppose you could argue that every game cheats in a way. Is it cheating that an AI controlled baddie hits you with a perfect headshot on Killzone?

Back onto Rage (I really think the name should be trademarked), how is it that your BAL team play differently than the regular AI teams (ie in regular 1v1 matches). They're soooo much slower in posession and clearly don't know what to do with the ball, especially near to goal.
I had several instances the other day when I put players through on goal and they did a completely unrealistic fluffed shot. :realmad:

 

[S-D-P]

The computer dictates the ideal circumstances for corner-kicks or throw-ins by determining the position of the players; example, you pass the ball to a player whom is running along the right flank, as soon as the player trapped the pass, a defender came in and knocked the ball out of the pitch -- who decided that the opponent would get close to the ball so easily? who really decided the throw-in considering the fact that the user cannot actually determine the movement inside a determined space?

______________________________

This is a good point, I have conceded so many soft goals due to cheap corners, my right back decides to mark the touchline from a cpu throw in and is inexplicably out of position(I have no control over this as he is out of position as the throw in is taken) this gives the cpu a great chance of winning a corner, is this bad AI or some kind of rubberbanding? I personally would go with the latter. Players bundling the ball out of play despite me being subtle on the analog and using RT(close control). Defence is the main thing I build teams on in PES so to concede such silly goals for the sake of it is infuriating.

When you are in possession it is strange that the players move in a specific direction by you only directing the analog stick, this can give the game an automatic feel that undermines some of the games excellence. The challenge is making the ball a separate entity and at times I feel this, but movements beyond your control dictate to many circumstances which makes losing certain matches even more silly. I have seen many occasions when players have conveniently moved half a yard out of position and that's all that is needed to concede a goal.

I have always raged at PES, but this year the games AI feels more exploitative than ever, It feels like konami want to create some sort of drama in every match. We also need a manual player switch that doesn't decided to take over your commands and score goals for you.

 

[Ultimate777]

Didnt even bother reading most of that GARBAGE above cos you been PROVEN to be incorrect and the only hope your clinging onto is that the video which PROVES you are a nothing more than a throbbing Clitoris.....was done on beginner level.


Two things,

1) It was done on top player

2) Lets say it wasn't, even if it was done on spastic mode (the mode they created for you) the FACT is that the pass is TOTALLY UNREALISTIC infact I showed the video to another member of this forum, and they were shocked at how a player like that can make a thoughball bend in two different directions along the ground.

The moral of the story sir, is that you talk shit, and your above comment has been completely and totally destroyed, as the CPU AI clearly makes random players do Superhuman passes, the difficulty level is totally irrelevant, difficulty level doesnt make this piece of CPU AI ridiculousness okay or not.

You spend your weekend playing online, but you dont have a fucking clue about the mechanics of the game, clearly, as you think the realism of a fucking nobody bending a pass along the floor in two different directions, depends on the difficulty setting

Bottom line: The video is legit, its top player difficulty, even if it wasnt its totally irrelevant because the flaw still exists regardless and you have been proven incorrect as you said..........

Originally Posted by Football777 View Post
no way do their standard players pull off world class through balls.




Well guess what VIDEO EVIDENCE says.....

1) You are factually wrong

2) Your mother should have strangled you at birth with your own umbilical cord and birth, wrapped you in a bin liner....and put you out with the compost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2DJXvgKrM

When you understand that, let me know, or are we gonna hear more retarded shit come out your HIV infected gums about ''Play me online'' when thats got FUCK ALL to do with you being a tard.

Once again you avoid most of my post ignoring where I’ve highlighted your own stupidity due to the numerous embarrassing and ignorant claims you’ve made. Where you’ve managed to get the idea that HGH causes your balls to shrink as if it’s steroids. Considering HGH is used as a treatment to reverse testicle atrophy, resulting from steroid abuse it's simply nonsensical to claim it causes that problem. You also illogically claim I don’t have a mother then in the next breath tell me I have. You’re also guilty of making false statements about excessive lagging online when anyone who has played it will know there is rarely any serious lagging going on. You then refused to play me to back up your 82% win record claim and prove you can split any defence with ludicrous through balls with any player regardless of their statistics which we know is false. Go on to post disingenuous jacked up homemade videos of you playing on low difficulty by yourself to try and impress me that the game is seriously flawed. The bottom line is you have no credibility; you’re just a little lost boy crying to be heard trying to convince yourself that you are on my level. What’s funny is you believe discussing these matters about pro is exclusively for the ‘’big boys’’ Yet you can’t even understand the basic premises of this thread.

Do you think you need a degree or it takes being a man to sit on your bum and play the game all day and notice flaws to complain about? God forbid you have any children in need of a role model. Watching you write crap about abusing babies online like a little coward? You think posting on here every year and lying that you play test games is going to get you anywhere in life? Let me tell you something, If I don’t like something I don’t waste time talking about it. I’ve got fifa, but can’t stand the game. You don’t see me on a fifa board trying to convince everyone there that the game is unplayable. This shows you really don’t have a life or any experience in the world simply because this is your main problem. You’ve dedicated years of your wasted life on here trying to convince everyone of everything that’s wrong with konami as if this is serious business that will make a difference to the world. You’re a complete joke son. And you know how I know that you’re a lying about play testing? Because no serious self respecting software/gaming company would hire an illiterate, filthy, repugnant, warped and disturbed individual who is emotionally, physically and mentally decrepit. Who also possesses the intellectual capacity to that of a stray dog with half its brain missing from getting run over repeatedly. Lastly you did not posses any of the beta versions of either fifa or pro prior to release which you would have done if you were a games tester.

I will say this one more time for you calmly without any foul language just in case you didn’t get it the first time- your sad homemade basement tailored video proved absolutely nothing. The fact that you are used that to justify your point just shows how desperate and pathetic you are. Firstly any person who is familiar with the game will notice in your video that the back line defence remains stationary while the through ball is played through which does not happen on top player. Secondly the marker on your player in midfield commits a tackle to ground so you can easily shift past him. On top player the defender will simply stand his ground and put pressure on you in order to retrieve the ball. Thirdly the goalkeeper makes no attempt to come forward to collect the ball or place any pressure once your player has been played into the box. He just stands there rooted to the spot. Those kinds of reactions only occur if you’re playing on a lower difficulty. To state that the difficulty level makes no difference to the competency of the cpu ai once again demonstrates you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Every year konami will releases early game play footage or a trailer like they did this year with pes2011. Experience gamers realised that you could see it was played on a lower difficulty as the keepers looked ridiculously poor where they were always rooted to the spot and making no effort to make a serious save in the pre released clips. We then had idiots believing the goalkeepers hadn’t been improved for this version because they looked at the video solely at face value. They didn’t take into account the level of difficulty displayed in the trailers. Likewise my 5 year old nephew can score up to 8 goals against barcalona on a lower difficulty. If I was a sad lowlife moron, I could make a video recording of his match and then put it up on youtube and claim it’s easy to earn high scores on pes11.

This is why you’re video isn’t conclusive and is firmly reliant on dishonesty and deception that only will deceive like-minded gullible idiots like yourself. It’s only conclusive in demonstrating your desperation. What’s hilarious is at the end of your small time video you state ‘’ you wouldn’t wipe the game with your arse’’ Now someone who is a serious and really does test games wouldn’t be so dumb as to write a comment like that in the outro of one their videos. Furthermore you’re clearly not a part of any development team within any game designing organisation as you’ve got no backing whatsoever to your videos besides a suicidal slit your wrist song that you uploaded by portishead. And you clearly lied about throwing the game away as that video was made recently and so clearly you still have a copy. So you are a coward, a liar, a fraud and someone who just talks with no action as you consistently failed to back up any of your claims about me or the game or step up to any challenges I presented.

Now in most instances, I’m rarely shocked at someone’s post, but it’s rare that I come across a complete scumbag that is completely sick in the head and in need of being placed in a specific measured glass jar to be contained and hidden away for the good of society. You clearly don’t know where to draw the line and turn a disagreement over a comment I made about passing into endless sick fantasises of babies being strangled and aborted. If you think imagining babies being choked with umbilical cords is funny then you really have no place not just on this forum but on this planet. I wouldn’t be surprised if you were related to this monster that killed his child because she disrupted his precious time on the xbox. http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...riend_Claire_Flanagans_Daughter_Violet_Mullen

People like you are the type of vermin who will beat helpless women and children to a pulp who are smaller than you. Then feel big and proud afterwards only to run and to tell your other sick friends about it to try and impress them. This is why you think abortion is a solution to everything, while chocking babies is fun and logical to you. This also explains why your posts are filled with talking about someone else’s mother because you were clearly abandoned and thrown away to the dogs when you were little by your own. Obviously no one paid you any attention and you was just put in front of the tv up to 8 hours a day and now come on here posting in big caps thinking up the most vile and hideous things. You feel you got to make up for the lost time when you were avoided and placed into the corner of a dark room with a busted up second hand tv set to keep entertained with rations of food thrown in every few hours for you to gouge on like a pig.

You were also permanently banned from this forum because you were no longer welcome here. Yet like a sly little weasel you created another account and got on your knees pleading with the mods to let you back because you couldn’t live without this place. You needed attention. So don’t talk to me about begging you hypocrite. I like to play and enjoy the game online and am familiar with many posters here so it would be good for the banter to set up a online competition here. You’ve done nothing but infested this forum with depraved bile and I hope you’re banned for good this time

 

[Hunter]

Just be quiet, what is the point in trying to incite anything again? Really, what is the point?

For the record too, he did create another account, but he didn't beg to the mods to come back. The admins (myself included) decided to reopen his original account in the hope he can prove himself as a more mature individual, unfortunately he hasn't done that thus far but he has sparked great life and debate in the PES section.

You really have annoyed me by responding to him again, especially when he's banned as he can only see it but not respond, further causing further unecessary tension. Do it again, and you'll be banned for a week or more. I'm drawing the line now, for good.

 

[Ultimate777]

Just be quiet, what is the point in trying to incite anything again? Really, what is the point?

For the record too, he did create another account, but he didn't beg to the mods to come back. The admins (myself included) decided to reopen his original account in the hope he can prove himself as a more mature individual, unfortunately he hasn't done that thus far but he has sparked great life and debate in the PES section.

You really have annoyed me by responding to him again, especially when he's banned as he can only see it but not respond, further causing further unecessary tension. Do it again, and you'll be banned for a week or more. I'm drawing the line now, for good.

I'm not going to stand back and let someone post absolute rubbish. If someone here is posting obvious false information to deceive people with then I'm not going to remain silent.

You do what you have to do. There was no foul langauge anywhere in my post which is why I was banned. It was calmly delivered to counter each and every false claim. If you think sparking life into the forum consists of posting absolute lies and ideas of mutilating babies then there really is no hope for this place. There comes a time where lines need to be drawn and this kid has gone over the edge.

 

[Hunter]

You were both posting rubbish. I can, and everyone can see it looking in, but clearly the two people responsible couldn't as you were the ones being immature.

It doesn't matter if there was no foul language in your last post, it's the complete unecessary instigation that is the problem with the post. As far as false claim, a lot of what you're referring to is opinions, and it's difficult to emphasise and sometimes express opinions on the internet, so exaggerations are made to represent these opinions a lot of the time. Clearly talk of mutilating babies and insulting family members is not allowed, and quite obviously I don't think that benefits the forum, because I've banned him for a lengthier period of time than yourself, but also swiftly took down the pictures involved in the argument - so stop talking nonsense.

You need to understand that this is a dead issue now, and the beef is done, line drawn so don't post in response again to inflame it. Let it die. Done. Don't even respond to this post with a counter argument because that in itself is useless. I've had a long day Christmas shopping, with little sleep last night, so please don't give me a reason to ban you again, because I really don't want to. Just leave it as it is, I'm not asking for apologies from you or Tech to one another, that's silly, just let the heat die down.

Thanks.

 

[Amateur]

The computer dictates the ideal circumstances for corner-kicks or throw-ins by determining the position of the players; example, you pass the ball to a player whom is running along the right flank, as soon as the player trapped the pass, a defender came in and knocked the ball out of the pitch -- who decided that the opponent would get close to the ball so easily? who really decided the throw-in considering the fact that the user cannot actually determine the movement inside a determined space?

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This is a good point, I have conceded so many soft goals due to cheap corners, my right back decides to mark the touchline from a cpu throw in and is inexplicably out of position(I have no control over this as he is out of position as the throw in is taken) this gives the cpu a great chance of winning a corner, is this bad AI or some kind of rubberbanding? I personally would go with the latter. Players bundling the ball out of play despite me being subtle on the analog and using RT(close control). Defence is the main thing I build teams on in PES so to concede such silly goals for the sake of it is infuriating.

When you are in possession it is strange that the players move in a specific direction by you only directing the analog stick, this can give the game an automatic feel that undermines some of the games excellence. The challenge is making the ball a separate entity and at times I feel this, but movements beyond your control dictate to many circumstances which makes losing certain matches even more silly. I have seen many occasions when players have conveniently moved half a yard out of position and that's all that is needed to concede a goal.

I have always raged at PES, but this year the games AI feels more exploitative than ever, It feels like konami want to create some sort of drama in every match. We also need a manual player switch that doesn't decided to take over your commands and score goals for you.

Yesterday I played PES11 the "patched" edition for 5 hours straight, and I got to be honest, the game was better before the patch, post-patch it is without a doubt the most SCRIPTED video game I have ever played.

So I fully agree with you when you say that PES11 is very scripted; in my opinion, it is hands down the most SCRIPTED video game I have ever played, from any genre. And in my experience, it is no longer "dramatic" when you can see it coming from a mile away and yet not be able to prevent it.

I'm sure that by now you know what I think about the left analogue stick and how it affects the game, and to me, that is well and truly the bottom line.

If you could affect movement INSIDIE one space, you would feel in control of the game; the problem is, you cannot affect movement INSIDE determined spaces of 5 feet of distance, which means that the COMPUTER is taking care of things that have to do with dribbling accuracies and defensive accuracies.

The game simply lacks a lot of responsiveness and accuracy. The old versions, yes, it was impossible to affect your movement INSIDE a determined space, but, at least it was responsive: example, the players did not twisted and turned like fucking boats.

With PES11 you can no longer run past everyone with Lio Messi, but at the same time, it does not offers more accuracy nor more responsiveness, it is a dumbed down version of the old system with a bit more freedom in certain respects; but is it really freedom and is it really an improvement, when it comes at the price of making the game dumber and slower?



The penalty area is a little tiny space: tackling is done inside a determined space of approximately 5 feet of distance, and so is dribbling; if I cannot affect my movement inside a determined space of 5 feet of distance, how can I tackle and how can I dribble? who decides these defensive and offensive accuracies?

This means that the COMPUTER can easily affect the outcome of each goal opportunity, can easily affect the percentage of probability of you scoring the goal, since it is impossible to affect movement without also affecting your position on the pitch, and in a little area like the penalty area, which requires realistic precision, this is the equivalent of serious restrictions and limitations -- which is why the video game actually NEEDS to be SCRIPTED, scripted in accordance to statistics which work automatically and cannot be affected nor manipulated by the USER.

You cannot adjust your body positioning without also affecting the direction in which you run and without also affecting the direction of your pass or shot, all the potential space (range of movement) that the left analogue stick has to offer, which is a LOT of space, is wasted on nothing, simply wasted.

The necessity of holding the R2 button, just so your players actually trap the ball every single time you pass the ball: really, how the hell does this requires any skills? holding the R2 button so your players do obvious things? why?

You could use statistics and provide certain players with more animations: example, Roman Riquelme could have more STATIONARY dribbling animations than the average player, which would enable Riquelme with the ability of shielding the ball when stationary: the real question is, how would you use Riquelme? or in other words, how would you use the statistics?

To date, the statistics work automatically: example, Lio Messi with the ball, direct the left analogue stick around, he RUNS or twists and turns past a couple of players.

Where is the accuracy in that? where is the substance in that?

That is not accurate nor substantial, these are pre-determined or SCRIPTED motions which can be easily manipulated by the COMPTER: example, Cristiano Ronaldo CONSISTENTLY taking the ball away from the feet of someone like Andres Iniesta....

That does not happens in rea life football but it happens all the time in PES, because in PES you can simply hold the R1 sprint button and steal the ball away from players like Lio Messi and Andres Iniesta, it does not requires any precision because it is impossible to tackle and it is impossible to dribble: SCRIPTED.

This is why you feel like a passenger: because you are not actually in control of the game.

How it can and should be done, is by releasing the sprint button and then directing the left analogue stick, and by doing this, you would affect your movement INSIDE a determined space of approximately 5 feet of distance: you can now store a lot of subtle but realistic animations into the range of movement of the left analogue stick.

Here's an idea: before having your first touch on the ball, by directing the left analogue stick without the assistance of any other button, this produces different body positioning animations which affect your movement INSIDE a determined space but does not affect your position on the pitch in any way; this movement inside a determined space would then affect passing, dribbling, or shooting.

On paper: Pass the ball, move the left analogue stick towards the right as far as it can go, this affects your movement inside the space, without affecting your position on the pitch since you are moving inside the space that you are occupying, this on-the-space movement will directly affect the subsequent passing or shooting animation; after determining the movement inside the space, you direct the left analogue stick towards the north, this will affect the direction of the pass or shot.

The game would flow a lot more realistically and a lot slower, because it would now require accuracy in terms of dribbling and man-marking, which are accuracies that require space and time: thus, the mentioned ON PAPER process might sound complicated, but if the game flowed at a realistic pace, it would fit right in.

The mentioned idea, would be a solution to some of the scripting, since it would add a new dimension of FREEDOM that we currently do not have. Having said that, the discussed idea would not fix everything, the game would still be scripted in terms of movement without the ball, but at least, the rest of the game would not be scripted.

You take someone like Andres Iniesta, and by releasing the sprint button and then directing the left analogue stick, this would produce organic animations which can be pre-determined by the user: example, directing the left analogue stick a little to the left produces one type of on-the-spot animation; on the other hand, directing the left analogue stick as far towards the left as it can go, and this will produce or trigger a different type of on-the-spot animation.

The USER gets to use the stats manually, because the USER can manipulate and pre-determine how he wants to use the statistics; instead of the statistics working however the computer wants them to work and whenever the computer wants them to work, with whomever the computer wants them to work, with the same repetitive RUNNING animations, since you can only implement a handful of animations into the left analogue stick if the left analogue stick cannot affect movement without also affecting your position on the pitch.

Another idea: players should fucking automatically trap the ball when you pass them the ball, the left analogue stick should determine how the player traps the ball; if the player does not traps the ball should be determined by a button, but trapping the ball should be automatic, and how the player automatically traps the ball should be determined by the left analogue stick, why the fuck do I need to hold the R2 button every time I pass the ball?

Another idea: use the RIGHT ANALOGUE STICK for first-touch short passes, the type of passing that Xavi-Iniesta can do, that is, very short 4 feet or 6 feet passes; the current passing system does not have enough depth for first-touch short passes, which is a problem that can and should be fixed.

Bottom line: PES11 is seriously SCRIPTED, "freedom" is not a word I would use to describe it.

Nice bit of AI cheating there. I feel your frustration.

Amateur - I kinda understand about what your saying, however the real frustrations (for me anyway) come when the game doesn't do what you tell it to do, or does something that you don't tell it to do (bit of a difference). I haven't really thought about the L stick to the same depth that you have, but like you say, it does feel like the game decides things for you... a lack of freedom.

At times the game takes over you. Players running out of play, moving away from the ball when the opposition has it, controlling the way the players run onto through balls. All ways of limiting the scoreline in favour of the AI team, otherwise it would be too easy. They just need to make the AI good at the game.

I don't have a problem with the way the L stick works, but you have your opinions, fine by me

I suppose you could argue that every game cheats in a way. Is it cheating that an AI controlled baddie hits you with a perfect headshot on Killzone?

Back onto Rage (I really think the name should be trademarked), how is it that your BAL team play differently than the regular AI teams (ie in regular 1v1 matches). They're soooo much slower in posession and clearly don't know what to do with the ball, especially near to goal.
I had several instances the other day when I put players through on goal and they did a completely unrealistic fluffed shot. :realmad:

Yeah but that does not work anymore, making the AI smarter will make the game extremely easy because of the slow reactions from GKs and defenders.

The game has been slowed down because it was necessary, but PES11 is a half baked product, because Konami simply dumbed down PES10 by making it slower and more scripted than it was, and disguising this with the new passing system which is extremely assisted.

Konami will say that GKs have more realistic reactions, and that all the players react more realistically, but that is not enough if you do not actually compensate in terms of substance: making the same thing look more realistic is just that, a visual effect, but the fact remains, that like PES5, PES6, PES10, in PES11 you still cannot move INSIDE one determined space, and as a result, the flaws are still the same as ever.

The AI is not dumb by accident, it is dumb because Konami balanced what would otherwise be extremely easy.

The only way you can actually fix this, is by fixing the root of the problem: they need to change how the sprint button functions, and how the left analogue stick functions, in order to make it possible for the user to affect his movement INSIDE the space.

If Konami does not fix the root of the problem, they will fix the problems of PES11 by adding new problems to replace the current problems: changing one problem for another problem, is not actually an improvement.

I think a lot of people don't have a good understanding on football video games, you should not think that PES11 can be better by simply making the AI better, it cannot be done.

That was the way things worked with ISS, PES5, PES6; but today, it simply does not works, slow and realistic motion capture animations do not work with fast and responsive AI: slow and realistic motion capture animations, currently are a half backed product, the other half of the product is accuracy and responsiveness in terms of movement INSIDE the space.

Back in ISS, PES5, PES6, it was all about accuracy and responsiveness in terms of movement from one space into another space, your movement was 8-axis, and because your movement was 8-axis, it required fast and responsive AI to compensate for the lack of freedom.

If you think you can mix PES5 or PES6 with slow and realistic motion capture animations, you have a wrong impression, it doesn't work, it isn't that simple, evidence of this is FIFA09, FIFA10, FIFA11, and PES11.

 

[S-D-P]

@Amateur

I like the idea of using the right stick for first time passes, you could also use this to simply knock for the ball on for yourself(almost like a first touch option) if it was sensitive enough which I think the analog is. In my opinion its no coincidence that we have such poor cursor change as this works in tandem with automatic player movement and having little control over your own players movement, the fact my own cpu controlled players challenge for air balls without me doing anything which I find insulting. I also think the cursor change is poor on purpose as a balancing act introduced by konami, Seabass is naive to think we would not notice this but it might be a case of him simply not giving a shit.

Its hard for me to envisage a system right now that offers more freedom with regards to player movement in any given space, I understand the basis of your ideas but It will also take me some time to get my head round it from a technical point if view. One problem I find is my manual passes are dictated far to much by the fact the players move to the ball like a laser guided missile without me necessarily doing much. As soon as the ball leaves my players foot I want to be able to select any player and move to where the ball is if that makes sense? for this you would need a perfect cursor change system and no input from the computer. Obviously stats have an effect on player movement as well as tactics but like you said it should be up to the player how we use these stats. Maybe a more pressure sensitive system would work better in terms of the Left stick, for example in pes 2011 the more subtle you are when using the analog for control the defter your players touch(although not consistent) I would like to see them build on this, I certainly feel the options are there to make better use of the analog stick this would also include more animations that are stat based and triggered by what we decide.

I have said to many people this is the most scripted computer game I have ever played both for and against you(its obvious when the game helps you score), something I find flabbergasting considering its 2011 in a few days. At the same time I love the game which I also find strange considering how wrong some of the fundamentals are, but I do feel the game does many things right. On another note I have found the pressure to get to almost fifa 11 levels since the patch, it looks like an under 10's game with 5 AI players gang raping you at little cost to stamina and fatigue.

 

[DiegoMalgani]

The game drives me crazy pure and simple. Every time I manage to find space with a player, he inevitably gets closed down by three-four defenders. I always curiously imagine how the opposition defense regrouped so quickly.

The field lines in this game are magnetic. Whenever I challenge a player near them the ball ALWAYS goes out for an opposition throw in. Whenever they are challenging me the ball magically takes a few ridiculous bounces and is picked up by an opposition player running full speed.

Off-sides are absolutely insulting. I can understand one player being in an offside position, but I am routinely seeing four or five even. I cannot tell you how many counter attacking situations have been wasted because of this.

The shooting is abysmal. I understand the necessity to be in space to unleash a perfect shot, but why does the ball need to balloon off the feet of the attacking player who is only under slight pressure? This is unrealistic and ridiculous.

The passing system is simply broken. One two passes rarely work because team AI routinely runs into the path of the player he has laid the ball off to. Often times my shots and even my passes ricochet of my own players, who are very poorly positioned for no reason other than to make my life difficult.

Finally, the most infuriating thing of all, the catch up logic and scripting. How can Cris (who is a smart defender in his own right) catch up to Cristiano Ronaldo, Theo Walcott, or Messi like the Terminator? I read on this forum once that this actually makes the game more realistic because you rarely see players use pure speed to beat players... Whoever wrote that deserves a gunshot to the back of the head. Watch Bale vs Inter.

Finally, the ball physics suck. Simply passes are wrongly juggled by players destroying passing coordination.

After playing three games today after a long hiatus... this is me raging.