iamcanadianeh
Registered User
Sounds like we understand eachother. I've seen some strange goals too which were clearly in the net but weren't called goals, strange keeper glitches, etc, too...
Stop The Scripted Cheating
- Thread starter LEGOFLAMB22
- Start date
Sounds like we understand eachother. I've seen some strange goals too which were clearly in the net but weren't called goals, strange keeper glitches, etc, too...
Dundon's
W.G.P
Spoken like a true veteran.
I've been playing WE/PES since WE9(PES5) and the cheating has gotten worse through the years.
In WEPES2007(PES6) the cheated depending what style team you played. If you played a team with fast aggressive strikers they'd do a better job defending then your defenders. They'd become byline to byline players. I remember playing AEK Athens one time and Rivaldo in his advanced age was marking my midfielders easily taking the ball away from them. After Athens took a 2-1 lead, I kid you not I COULD NOT MAKE ANY PASSES OR EVEN LEAVE MY OWN HALF. I wish I was exaggerating but every single pass I made during the second half of the game either went out of bounds, to the other team or my player would extend his leg out and miss the ball leading to the other team getting it. It was a ML game but I had players like Cahill, Nasri, D. Silva, N. de Jong, M. Richards. Not all stalwarts of the game but above average players.
There's no point in talking about 2008 because flushing a toilet and playing that game where the same things.
But 2009 that game is a pro. I know some of you have mentioned it but you can "feel" when the computer is scored. I remember one game where the CPU was making a throw-in, the player I was controlling got hit off balance by the referee, the CPU threw it in, made a pass where I was supposed to be and the CPU took a shot and scored on a perfect curler into the top right corner. The name of the scorer escapes my memory but after that game I went into edit mode and looked at the player's swerve rating and it was in the high 50's. Yes the high 50's and this guy was bending the ball better than Beckham, Pirlo, Juninho, and C. Ronaldo combined.
Other instances of AI cheating...
-The AI switching your selected player during corners. The player you were controlling moves out of the defenders way and scores the game tying/winning goal.
-Goalies having erratic reaction times, they'll stop a 25yd Gerrard rocket but they can't stop the slowest of headers.
There's a ton more but I can't remember the rest.
In WEPES2007(PES6) the cheated depending what style team you played. If you played a team with fast aggressive strikers they'd do a better job defending then your defenders. They'd become byline to byline players. I remember playing AEK Athens one time and Rivaldo in his advanced age was marking my midfielders easily taking the ball away from them. After Athens took a 2-1 lead, I kid you not I COULD NOT MAKE ANY PASSES OR EVEN LEAVE MY OWN HALF. I wish I was exaggerating but every single pass I made during the second half of the game either went out of bounds, to the other team or my player would extend his leg out and miss the ball leading to the other team getting it. It was a ML game but I had players like Cahill, Nasri, D. Silva, N. de Jong, M. Richards. Not all stalwarts of the game but above average players.
There's no point in talking about 2008 because flushing a toilet and playing that game where the same things.
But 2009 that game is a pro. I know some of you have mentioned it but you can "feel" when the computer is scored. I remember one game where the CPU was making a throw-in, the player I was controlling got hit off balance by the referee, the CPU threw it in, made a pass where I was supposed to be and the CPU took a shot and scored on a perfect curler into the top right corner. The name of the scorer escapes my memory but after that game I went into edit mode and looked at the player's swerve rating and it was in the high 50's. Yes the high 50's and this guy was bending the ball better than Beckham, Pirlo, Juninho, and C. Ronaldo combined.
Other instances of AI cheating...
-The AI switching your selected player during corners. The player you were controlling moves out of the defenders way and scores the game tying/winning goal.
-Goalies having erratic reaction times, they'll stop a 25yd Gerrard rocket but they can't stop the slowest of headers.
There's a ton more but I can't remember the rest.
Amateur
Registered User
This is where Pro Evo fails massively... I was expecting that Konami would finally fix that with Next Gen Consoles -but- how wrong was I.
There is NO Team Chemistry in PES, and Konami themselves have confirmed this by openly stating that To Date: the Team Formation determines how your Team will move off-the-ball.
As a result we don't have any difference between "Tactical Ability" and "Technical Ability". Leo Messi is a better Defensive Midfielder than Makelele... any fast/agile player with good balance -is- a great Defender.
This haves a very negative effect on the Credibility of the "Simulation". My Defensive Midfielders are Leo Messi and Sergio Aguero... is that realistic at all??
Konami should start developing New Concepts for Team Chemistry.
Agreed Amatuer.
High aggression + high balance = excellent defenders.
They need to implement new rating algorithms. I'm not a fan of the Madden NFL serious but one thing they got right was player speed. a 290lbs.+ Offensive/Defensive Linemen with an 80 speed rating was not the same as a 185lbs. Wide Reciever with an 80 speed rating. Of course in soccer there isn't weight gaps of that kind with players but we all know the slower players usually play a more defensive role.
I'm not saying defenders speeds in PES should be crippled, but Puyol, Terry, Cannavaro, etc. should not be out pacing the likes of C. Ronaldo, Walcott, F. Torres. The only exception I see at the back position that might keep up with them is I. Cordoba and probably a few others.
The reason these upfield players have such a high work rate is because of the Aggression rating. I'm not saying Strikers and Wingers never come down to defend because that is not the case. Many of games I've seen these types of players come down the field to help occasionally, but in PES they pretty much do it all the time. Drogba, Messi, or Raul should not be near the penalty box every time I bring the ball down to the opposing teams last third of the field. If his team is down 1-0 with time closing in then I can see this desperation happening but not 5 minutes into the first half.
I also think the Balance rating should be tweaked as well. There should be tiers to it. Example, a Defender with an 80 Balance rating should not be pushed around by Adriano just because he has a 90 Balance. The player with out the ball can concentrate more on trying to take the ball away because he doesn't have to worry about dribbling the ball plus keeping his marker away. Now if Adriano was to be challanged by a Midfielder with an 80 rating he should stand a better chance against him compared to a fullback. This can work as a Rock/Paper/Scissor type of system.
The Technique rating is another one. It shouldn't just be for the way a player traps the ball or shoots, it should also cover how he keeps the ball away from a defender. Players like Riquelme, Figo, Juninho, K. Nakamura which aren't speedsters by any means still manage to bring the ball upfield because of their ability to keep defenders away. This should be implemented into PES. In the game, pretty much any player with an 85+ speed rating automatically becomes a Maradona-like ball handler. I think you've said this before Amatuer but there should be a dribbling rating for the wings and for the center of the field because those are two different animals. Only a few players can do both but in real life but in PES any Tom, Dick & Harry with decent pace become Zidane, Messi, Henry, Ronaldo all in one.
High aggression + high balance = excellent defenders.
They need to implement new rating algorithms. I'm not a fan of the Madden NFL serious but one thing they got right was player speed. a 290lbs.+ Offensive/Defensive Linemen with an 80 speed rating was not the same as a 185lbs. Wide Reciever with an 80 speed rating. Of course in soccer there isn't weight gaps of that kind with players but we all know the slower players usually play a more defensive role.
I'm not saying defenders speeds in PES should be crippled, but Puyol, Terry, Cannavaro, etc. should not be out pacing the likes of C. Ronaldo, Walcott, F. Torres. The only exception I see at the back position that might keep up with them is I. Cordoba and probably a few others.
The reason these upfield players have such a high work rate is because of the Aggression rating. I'm not saying Strikers and Wingers never come down to defend because that is not the case. Many of games I've seen these types of players come down the field to help occasionally, but in PES they pretty much do it all the time. Drogba, Messi, or Raul should not be near the penalty box every time I bring the ball down to the opposing teams last third of the field. If his team is down 1-0 with time closing in then I can see this desperation happening but not 5 minutes into the first half.
I also think the Balance rating should be tweaked as well. There should be tiers to it. Example, a Defender with an 80 Balance rating should not be pushed around by Adriano just because he has a 90 Balance. The player with out the ball can concentrate more on trying to take the ball away because he doesn't have to worry about dribbling the ball plus keeping his marker away. Now if Adriano was to be challanged by a Midfielder with an 80 rating he should stand a better chance against him compared to a fullback. This can work as a Rock/Paper/Scissor type of system.
The Technique rating is another one. It shouldn't just be for the way a player traps the ball or shoots, it should also cover how he keeps the ball away from a defender. Players like Riquelme, Figo, Juninho, K. Nakamura which aren't speedsters by any means still manage to bring the ball upfield because of their ability to keep defenders away. This should be implemented into PES. In the game, pretty much any player with an 85+ speed rating automatically becomes a Maradona-like ball handler. I think you've said this before Amatuer but there should be a dribbling rating for the wings and for the center of the field because those are two different animals. Only a few players can do both but in real life but in PES any Tom, Dick & Harry with decent pace become Zidane, Messi, Henry, Ronaldo all in one.
MatTheCat
Registered User
Here is a classic....
Earlier today, I played an online match as England V Spain.
1st half, my team were linking incredibly well and I was pulling off some stunning play that is not normally possible in PES. However, my strikers just couldnt hit the target
Off the post,
Off the bar,
Keeper makes stunning reflex save,
(NB* by this point I know exactly what is coming)
Keeper makes stunning double/treble reflex save.
Keeper makes physical impossible save whereby he changes direction in mid dive
etc etc etc
On 44th minute, my opponent scores from lame cross where his attacker was unmarked in my box. This was his only chance of the 1st hlaf.
2nd half, my side just cannot seem to link or keep possession, lots of passes going astray, players in poor positions, etc which results in my opponent dominating. But alas, he cannot seem to score.
In one of my rare 2nd half forrays into the danger area, I win a corner and score from that.....
With much at stake my opponent starts playing like a little n00b and going like fuck for an exploit goal....He gets one, he wins.
Oooh the thrilling excitement of it all....
YAWWWNNNN.
The scripting really and truly is not so much about little things like the CPU not giving away fouls and such as it is the AI imposing certain probability structures in the game. In the match I described above, it was probable that in one half, England were going to have the lionshare of gameplay but simply be very unlucky in front of goal. Since the AI is no more than a series of calculations, this can easily be done by tipping the probability in midfield strongly in one teams favour. The fact that I could not score in front of goal can easily be done by strongly tipping the probability equations against my opposition conceding a goal and vice versa should my opponent get forward and actually get an opportunity in front of goal, as hard as it might be for him to do so. The second half was simply a reverse of this and my opponents frustration led to him demonstrating jsut how easily this games AI can be exploited should a player really wish to do so.
The game is a bag of arse.
iamcanadianeh
Registered User
Well, just for the record, I still disagree... :happy:
In my opinion, the game verges on being too easy, and to me that's a bigger problem. Even if the AI get a "cheap" one, you can always dribble through even the best defense with a skillful attacker and get one on one with the goalie, beat them one on one with a fake, or take a shot with R2 so that you are very unlikely to miss the net. That being said, I find the fact that the AI fights back to be welcome.
I play on Top Player in ML, and don't have amazing players. My best player by far is Darren Bent, and his shot acc is just below or at 80 now. He has the scoring special skill I believe, which helps, but he isn't an amazing finisher. If I had a better team I would definitely be able to school the AI in any match, so I don't understand this perpective. In other words I wish the AI "cheated" more actually.
Sorry... I take that back. Actually I wish the AI was just "better" and that dribbling wasn't as easy. And hopefully that is a good description of PES 2010
To be honest, if I played the game with more of an emphasis on passing I might have a lot more difficulty and begin to see how the AI is cheating, but I want to win! So I always do whatever I need to to get that goal. Point is, in PES 09 that's a bit too easy, and by that I mean the opposite of what many are saying... I think it relies too much on "skill" and not enough on "luck." By skill, I mean dribbling, in other words, when I do score it is often too deliberate, not due to pressuring the defense and converting a half-chance. In real footy though it's often a little mistake or a player out of position (it does happen) that leads to a goal, not a player dribbling through an entire team. I do try to fight the urge to dribble my way to goal, but tbh, that option is always in my back pocket. And no, I don't have some secret cheap move that I rely on. Most goals are very different, but like I said, often too deliberate (i.e. I think, "I need to score," so I pass it to a good player, they dribble in, pass if needed, but force a goal more times than not, and if I miss the net I do it again but get closer to the goalie, and try to set up a shot I can't miss, using R2 - rarely - to make sure I hit the target).
Sorry, this will be my last post in this thread... Promise
In my opinion, the game verges on being too easy, and to me that's a bigger problem. Even if the AI get a "cheap" one, you can always dribble through even the best defense with a skillful attacker and get one on one with the goalie, beat them one on one with a fake, or take a shot with R2 so that you are very unlikely to miss the net. That being said, I find the fact that the AI fights back to be welcome.
I play on Top Player in ML, and don't have amazing players. My best player by far is Darren Bent, and his shot acc is just below or at 80 now. He has the scoring special skill I believe, which helps, but he isn't an amazing finisher. If I had a better team I would definitely be able to school the AI in any match, so I don't understand this perpective. In other words I wish the AI "cheated" more actually.
Sorry... I take that back. Actually I wish the AI was just "better" and that dribbling wasn't as easy. And hopefully that is a good description of PES 2010
To be honest, if I played the game with more of an emphasis on passing I might have a lot more difficulty and begin to see how the AI is cheating, but I want to win! So I always do whatever I need to to get that goal. Point is, in PES 09 that's a bit too easy, and by that I mean the opposite of what many are saying... I think it relies too much on "skill" and not enough on "luck." By skill, I mean dribbling, in other words, when I do score it is often too deliberate, not due to pressuring the defense and converting a half-chance. In real footy though it's often a little mistake or a player out of position (it does happen) that leads to a goal, not a player dribbling through an entire team. I do try to fight the urge to dribble my way to goal, but tbh, that option is always in my back pocket. And no, I don't have some secret cheap move that I rely on. Most goals are very different, but like I said, often too deliberate (i.e. I think, "I need to score," so I pass it to a good player, they dribble in, pass if needed, but force a goal more times than not, and if I miss the net I do it again but get closer to the goalie, and try to set up a shot I can't miss, using R2 - rarely - to make sure I hit the target).
Sorry, this will be my last post in this thread... Promise
Amateur
Registered User
The whole AI-Scripting needs to change... we need to have more Control over it and we need some Key Stats for Dictating it. We should have the power of manipulating it, so that it can be based on Our Actual Skills as players -instead- of some random decision by the COM.
Manipulating the "momentum shifts" would be a skill we would have to master. Much better than simply following the Script that the COM comes up with.
It's been pretty much the same thing since always... only difference is that it is year 2009, it could only work for so long. Hopefully Konami will find a way of making the game more about SKILLS -and- less about LUCK.
MatTheCat
Registered User
The thing here m8 is that most purists 'enthuisiasts' would not class the above as playing the game but as breaking the game. Like I said, if a player really wants to and is well versed enough in exploiting the lame AI, then it is possible to get an abundance of goals regardless of what plans for the match the AI script engine is pushing. If Pro Evo were a more solid game, it would simply not be possible for you to do this succesfully unless you were hugely talented at dribbling and even then only with the best players. As it stands, what you do anyone can should they opt to play the game in that way. I prefer not as I would rather play nothing at all than bore myself shitless with relentlessy trying to dribble through a piss poor defensive AI all the time.
tbh, I dont think you will see what you are looking for from Konami for quite some time. It is only now that the series is undeniably lagging behind the competition by a long way that Konami have started to up the anti a bit and bring their approach to games development into the 21st century.
PES 2010 will be a good game, better and more polished than 2009 with improved online play. The latter has got to be a must as the train wreck of an online system has just gone and lost the series a huge amount of fans. Sure, PES 2008 online was every bit as bad and the game itself was a pile of utter shit. However, FIFA 08 wasn't that appealling to near as many pesfans (at least the ones I know) as FIFA09 is. Due to poor online functionality, all my erstwhile pes gaming mates are now hooked on FIFA and I hear nothing but glowing reports and strong recommendations for this game. Clearly, it is going to be very difficult for Konami to win these fans back.
shaun7
Registered User
Well, just for the record, I still disagree... :happy:
In my opinion, the game verges on being too easy, and to me that's a bigger problem. Even if the AI get a "cheap" one, you can always dribble through even the best defense with a skillful attacker and get one on one with the goalie, beat them one on one with a fake, or take a shot with R2 so that you are very unlikely to miss the net. That being said, I find the fact that the AI fights back to be welcome.
I play on Top Player in ML, and don't have amazing players. My best player by far is Darren Bent, and his shot acc is just below or at 80 now. He has the scoring special skill I believe, which helps, but he isn't an amazing finisher. If I had a better team I would definitely be able to school the AI in any match, so I don't understand this perpective. In other words I wish the AI "cheated" more actually.
Sorry... I take that back. Actually I wish the AI was just "better" and that dribbling wasn't as easy. And hopefully that is a good description of PES 2010
To be honest, if I played the game with more of an emphasis on passing I might have a lot more difficulty and begin to see how the AI is cheating, but I want to win! So I always do whatever I need to to get that goal. Point is, in PES 09 that's a bit too easy, and by that I mean the opposite of what many are saying... I think it relies too much on "skill" and not enough on "luck." By skill, I mean dribbling, in other words, when I do score it is often too deliberate, not due to pressuring the defense and converting a half-chance. In real footy though it's often a little mistake or a player out of position (it does happen) that leads to a goal, not a player dribbling through an entire team. I do try to fight the urge to dribble my way to goal, but tbh, that option is always in my back pocket. And no, I don't have some secret cheap move that I rely on. Most goals are very different, but like I said, often too deliberate (i.e. I think, "I need to score," so I pass it to a good player, they dribble in, pass if needed, but force a goal more times than not, and if I miss the net I do it again but get closer to the goalie, and try to set up a shot I can't miss, using R2 - rarely - to make sure I hit the target).
Sorry, this will be my last post in this thread... Promise
Have you ever played a 2 player match? 1 vs 1 with a friend?
If so how do you explain this:
Since pes 6, this has been a serious problem.
I played with Juve and my fried ( who wasn't sure what pes was) played with Man utd. I dominated throught and he got 2 cheap goals (he didn't even know what buttons to press). Then I got the draw. But for me it was a disappointment.
I hit 3 times the crossbar and his GK was superman.
Note: this happened in pes 6, but the same thing happens in pes 08, and 09 sadly.
Almost no skill involved in matches, always luck.
Amateur
Registered User
Fully agree...
It also happened in PES5 I think, although not as much... but this is definitely something that should be a priority.
Playable Online is one of the priorities -but- making the game more about Skills and less about Luck should be another Priority.
It's reached the point where it's obvious and too out of date. The game needs to massively improve in this respect, it's very disappointing to know that it requires no skills. And if Konami keeps using that same (scripted momentum shifts that go against you at some point) Concept... they will certainly loose some fans to FIFA.
The "AI-Cheating" or "AI-Scripting" was one of those things I ignored when I played PES5 and PES6. But you know it's year 2009 and I'm really bored of the same old BS.
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shaun7
Registered User
^It did happen on pes 5 but not as much. Personally I got tired of this luck based thing.
At least fifa 09 is like pes 5. It does depend on luck, but skill plays it's own part too.
Now again, by this I don't mean fifa 09 is better. I am just saying what's better in fifa 09 at the moment, because fifa 09 has it's own major problems like the controls for example.
At least fifa 09 is like pes 5. It does depend on luck, but skill plays it's own part too.
Now again, by this I don't mean fifa 09 is better. I am just saying what's better in fifa 09 at the moment, because fifa 09 has it's own major problems like the controls for example.
iamcanadianeh
Registered User
I said I wouldn't post again, but Shaun has a direct and valid question for me, so...
Yeah, I live in Canada so I don't have a lot of buddies who are nearly as interested in footy or PES as I am. Online is broke, so mostly I play against the AI.
Now... We've talked a lot about the AI and how it seems to cheat, but you're talking here about playing mano a mano... That leads me to believe that you think the CPU chooses one side to win even if it's a human player! If that's true, then does the CPU sometimes choose for you to win even against the CPU? I'm not arguing, just trying to clarify what we mean by "cheating." It's still very vague to me exactly what you, Mat and Amateur are really saying.
I've asked this before, "do you think the CPU decides that it wants to win?" Or, are you talking about the seeming randomness of when and when a goal isn't scored? If it's the latter, then that's something I can relate to more, but it's very difficult to call it "cheating." Cheating, to me would mean that the AI does it intentionally, whereas the randomness of when a goal goes in or doesn't is very different! If it's randomness, then I for one wouldn't call it "scripting." If the code is random however I can see how under certain circumstances it might seem like there is a "script" but again, which are you saying?
Scripting, or too random?
As for playing 1 v 1, I have been playing this series since the PS1 days, and even searched out and played Konami's original game for the nintendo, plus all the N64 titles, and everything I've been able to get my hands on since... I think I'm good at the game enough to walk into a match against any one of my Canadian buddies who know little or nothing about soccer, but on the off occassion, in almost any game in this series my friends have been able to pull off victories against me. I actually like that, but I would say that if you play the game regularly (i.e. every day) and go up against someone who plays it hardly at all or never, that they might win one match against you, but if you play 3, 5, 10 matches you will have the clear advantage.
PS - Anyone ever played NHL 09 btw? If you want to see a game where there is little skill involved and the AI decides when a goal goes in and when it doesn't, check that one out! It's amazing how hard it is to score (unless you do one of the 3 blatant glitch goals in the game), and when you do there's absolutely no reason why you can say that you scored on that chance versus the other 25 chances that were saved! In contrast PES 09 is way better IMO, but maybe I've just played it more and gotten past this issue. Who knows, but I enjoy it and I don't think the goals I score are cheap, repetetive, or even ugly. They're just often quite deliberate. Also, I don't score a ton of goals... Most times it's 2-1, 3-1, and lots of 1-0, and I don't always win obviously either (I'm just saying that I feel like I have a more than fair chance to win, which is all that matters).
My bottom line point is that I find this refreshing compared to PES 08 and others where I would regularly end up with 8-0 scorelines and the CPU could almost never score a goal on me.
PPS - Don't get the wrong idea here. I agree with Matt's point about how purists prefer to play a passing game and set up great goals that are less deliberate 100%. My point is just that I feel I have no choice but to try to appreciate PES 09 for what it is, and for that it's really not as bad as some make it out to be. Eventually, as I've come to appreciate it more and more, it's the AI's ability to score that I think makes it an advance in the series in that respect. If you choose to look at it that way I guess...
Amateur
Registered User
It's not rocket science, it's plain and simple...
Whenever your Team's "off-the-ball" movement turns to shit for no particular reason -this- means that The Momentum is against you for the time being.
Whenever all of your moves are going perfectly and your opponent doesn't seems capable of doing anything about it -this- means The Momentum is in your favor.
What dictates How and Why the Momentum Shifts throughout a game?? Whatever it is, we have no control over it... therefore some people call it "Scripted" others simply say it's Cheating.
I also mostly play against the COM since most of my friends play FIFA09 -and- it is also very easy to spot when playing against COM or Human, it's the same thing.
Is there any Skill involved??
I almost-always win every game against inexperienced players... so with that in mind the game obviously necessitates some level of skill.
But whenever I play against someone who knows the game, it's usually decided by some COM gimmick like my "off-the-ball" movement turning to shit for no reason other than the COM deciding it should be that way.
I don't like the fact that I have no control over the "momentum shifts". I don't like having to follow some rubbish Script.
As for the Randomness...
The game is based on LUCK, and Not on actual SKILLS. Which is something you realize whenever you play Competitively. It's something Shaun7 explained quite well some time ago.
To date, all I do when I’m taking a Corner Kick is Tap the R2 + the Shooting button + the Crossing button - I don’t know why but I always score plenty of headers by doing this.
My main problem with this is that it requires zero level of Skill/Thinking, it requires zero level of Tactical play; outwitting your opponent.
You just Tap some buttons and the COM takes care of the rest, and if you’re LUCKY enough the ball will go in. A “yes” or “no” routine entirely dictated by the COM.
Entertaining - Yes, for a quick fix, maybe some 3 or 4 games.
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Can you spoil the game for me too ?
By touchline you mean goal line right ?
I just don't get it, is there a video somewhere showing that ?
Thanks
MatTheCat
Registered User
Yes, run towards goaline so that you are 2-4 virtual yards wide of either post. Then when you are about 1-2 yards from goalline, keeping your man facing goal line but aiming towards goal, tap shoot button. Never fails.
Dunno if there any such videos on you tube. Might be hard to find as I cant imagine why anyone would want to showcase such a lame goal.
iamcanadianeh
Registered User
Thanks Amateur, that explanation makes it clearer for me.
Not that I agree with your degree of exaggeration, but at least I understand now exactly what's being said. Sure, I agree, it could/should be better, but in my experience the momentum shifts are there, but they're far from making the game unplayable... In fact, I've found that the more you actually play the game the less you notice it, because you get better at beating the com and eventually their momentum doesn't mean a sniff. In fact, you welcome it. Whenever the momentum shifts in the com's favor - the timing of which I wouldn't expect to have control over anyway - all I say to myself is "bring it on b#@ches!!!"